Anybody else as sad and disturbed as I am about Scooter Libby's sentence being commutted?
When criminals can get away with major crimes against the people such as this, it sorta puts illegal immigration in perspective.
John
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Anybody else as sad and disturbed as I am about Scooter Libby's sentence being commutted?
When criminals can get away with major crimes against the people such as this, it sorta puts illegal immigration in perspective.
John
I agree, John56, and you're right about the double standard. In my book, nothing much can be expected from that jerk. He isn't bothered by lying, soldiers and Iraqis dying, debt piled on our kids, people around the world screwed up by climate change, and holding back the Cafe standards while kids choke in cities.
What I'd like to do is talk to some of the people that put him in office, and ask them, "What were you thinking?" Or some of the Repubs in Congress who support him.
Life sucks John. Has forever, will forever.
Not being American I still feel outraged by Bush's pardon move - it really looks not far from an admission that "I don't care what you think of this affair, we did what we hadda do, then (when Mrs Plame was outed) as well as now"
gagged_louise: you got that right
There are times when I'm ashamed to be an American.
gagged_louise, if you don't mind my asking, but you must think we're real jerks at times. Things like fundamentists not believing in evolution, our gulliblity with Bush which got him elected. We're always patting ourselfs on the back, telling each other how great we are. I'd love an assessment from somebody across the pond
TG: I totally agree with you. But he has used fear, and deceit, and vendettas, and lying and criminal activity to good measure it seems.
His popularity is at an all-time low and strill he does what HE wants rather than what is in the interest of this country.
Rhabbi: Sorry to disagree with you Rhabbi. Politics may suck, Bush certainly does, Cheney is the devil himself, so yeah. Respectfully, There are and always have been sucky people in the world, but I still have an inate faith in human beings and in Life.
Louise: You are right Louise. His administration does not care what AMericans think so how could they care what the rest of the world does. That is one of the saddest occurrences since 2000 and since 9/11.
When I traveled in Europe and Asia in the '80s and '90s I felt proud to be an AMerican. People accepted us so wonderfully. When I was in Italy in 1989 San Francisco had its horrible earhtquake. The italians, when they heard we were from San Fran, fell over themselves to tell how much that felt for us and love that city (as I still do).
But we have squandered the world's good graces. With bullying and the war and hatred we have very few places that like us anymore. It is disheartening.
As i said in another thread, I sooo want my country back. I just hope we aren't irreparably damaged.
Thanks for the comments folks. I appreciate it.
John56, the guy I most respected in my life once told me, "Life isn't fair, but some people try to be....." There's a lot that sucks, but also people who you meet that just make you want to thank God for putting them on this Earth.
I think this time round, the Dems have got some people that could go a long way to rehab-ing us. I think both Clinton and Edwards have genuine personal interest in making things better. Obama might also, I just don't peronsally know.
TG: I like how you think, my friend :)
Yeah, I think Clinton, Edwards and Obama have a shot. And I know there are such good people in the world, I know a lot of them, lol. You sound like one of em. We just sometimes are overshadowed by the other folks.
Have a great day. Pleasure hearing your views.
John
I don't think Bush is evil, or a person who takes care of his own interests, I just don't think he's really that intelligent to run a country. As for the Scooter Libby sentence, I don't have enough information to judge whether or not it was fair.
Oh, nk_lion, the guy is evil. When the CIA wasn't giving them the info they wanted to provoke the war they had a new department set up in, I believe, the Defense Department. They reread the Cia stuff, and reinterpeted it as useful. For example, the info about the bomb material reported in the Valarie Phane case was dismissed by the original reporting Cia operative as false. He thought it was a crock. The new department, run by Channey, - without any new evidence - DECLARED it was valid. And the list goes on. They knew they were cooking the books. Like the inferences that Hussain was connected to Bin Laden - they were right - Bin Laden had operatives there - WITH THE KURDS IN THE NORTH - his enemies! They implied Bin Ladin's operatives were involved with Hussain when in fact they were with the people Hussain would least likely talk to! If that's not deliberately misleading people, I don't know what is.
The Iraqi man they used for the source of most of their intel was refered to them by, I believe, the Germans. When the Germans gave us this man, they reported to us that they believed he was a.....lair, and they had dismissed him as useless. And Channey and crew rehabed him.
But you're right he isn't smart enough to run the country. In my book, the guy deliberately distorted the truth to provoke the war for .....God only knows what reasons.
Chance the Neocons were re-fighting the last war. My money goes to him wanting revenge for the attempted assissination of this father by Hussain. Some people believe they wanted to get control of the new oil reserves - the geology report on that were availbe, I believe, since the 1970's. Who knows.
nk_lion, I think I owe you an apology. You made a simple comment, and I took it as an opportunity to blow my cork on my favorite "Must Hate" list.
Sorry. I just hate the guy so much.
TG
TG said it perfectly. Bush is smarter than he acts, and he has put loyalty, lobbies, fear and political ideals above the country's needs.
He considers himself a king, above all the peons in the land.
He is evil, pure and simple.
John56,
That man deserves to be hated. 100,000's have died because of his use of politics for personal gain; more lead ruined lives because of him. How many in Bangadesh will suffer when water floods their land, how many will starve when drough kills their crops. What of our senior's who have to choose between food and medication. Or those with low incomes who have to drive up to the gas pumps.
This is the worse evil in my life time. Right up their with Hitler.
We should apologize to the world for what we've inflicted on them.
Just evil - and Channey, et al
Don't know if I'd go as far. The losses associated with the Holocaust are incomparable with the losses associated with Iraq, however great they may be.
And while I dislike Bush, I don't believe he's "evil". Going after the war because of an attempted assassination with his father? That's a stretch.
There's no such thing as pure and simple evil, perfectly divisible sides of right or wrong. If you disagree, then you may have more in common with Bush than you think.
..That came off a little more strongly than I intended. Don't get me wrong...I agree with most of what you said. I'm not a fan of Bush either.
Ayla,
I must disagree with you and to say that I have something in common with this man that listens to no one, that has taken this country down the road of seeing the Geneva Convention's as quaint, using torture as a means to get information from criminals that have been held without trial or without being told what they have accused of, Throwing out Habeas Corpus, Redefining the powers of the Executive branch to make the branch a Divine Right Monarchy, and attempts to create a virtual one party dictatorship in MY country is an insult of the highest order.
Bush, Cheney and their administration have attempted to change what it means to actually BE an American. The Constitution means nothing to these people. To take those noble ideals and create a mockery of them is evil in my book, yes, pure and simple. Now that is IMHO is implied. You can disagree, but I DON'T think it makes me like Mr. Bush.
A man who has taken the very office he has been elected to and deformed that office and mutated that office into his own petty dictatorship, is reprehensible. A man who uses one of the worst tragedies in this nation's history as his own personal fear-mongering scape goat is evil in my book.
I would not think of twisting the words of someone's post to insult them like that. But I will RESPECTFULLY answer the points of your post.
I don't compare the losses in Iraq with the losses of the Holocaust. I don't compare the last war in America's history that had any nobility at all to Iraq. But the president has, and the Republican pundits have. I consider those people insulting to people like my father who sacrificed so much to defeat a true evil. Iraq is a petty war of choice for monetary gain, cloaked in lies.
But a comparison can be made to What Cheney and Bush do. Hitler used some very basic techniques to accomplish his desires. Simplistically, they are, 1)create an enemy to fear (Hitler: Judaism, Bush: Islam), exploit that fear, slowly take away the rights of the people, establish yourself as sole leader.
THAT was MY comparison to Hitler, not to WWII or the Holocaust.
Sorry I do tend to rant sometimes, lol. :iz :iz :)
John56, You're really one of the good guys.
I yield to your assessment of WWII. It was more reasoned than mine, more thoughtful, and paid the respect and honor due the participants in that conflict the honor and respect that they were rightfully due. My assessment lost respective of how great they were. You're right; not me.
Ayle, I've seen John56's post on these subjects for awhile, and I'm guess (I don't want to put words in his mouth-just my guess) is that he isn't referring to evil as a religious fanatic does, but they way people refer to mass murders or child abusers. A person who hurts others for purely selfish reasons. Without implying demonic possession or supernatural intervention, I refer to people like child murders as evil, and I believe John56 does too.
I think John56 is right in emphasizing the enormity of what Bush does. I don't want Bush to be "normalized" or minimized as an everyday, common politician with his hand in the drawn. I think he will go done in history as the sole US president to have been evil, in the sense of any infamous dictator from the past, like Idy Amin (sp?)
PS John56, nice having people like you in the world to go after the bad guys.
TG
Thank you TG gfor those kind words, and from your posts I consider you one of those good guys too :)
And yes, I do think of evil as you mentioned and not in a cartoon or horror or religious sense.
To me true evil is in the minds of people that can look normal and be loved by their children and wives and friends, but still choose to manipulate and deceive to gain unlimited power.
Thanks again TG, proud to know you.
John
Feelings mutual, John56
TG
I wasn't aware of being disrespectful, no more than I was of twisting your words. If I interpreted your statements wrongly, then I apologize. It was no intention of mine to personally offend you. My comments were uncharacteristically short because I was attempting to be concise. However, I realize now that brevity is not necessarily interchangeable with lucidness. Allow me to elaborate. Perhaps your philosophies are not similar, but the natures of your uncompromising, absolute support of said philosophies are comparable.Quote:
I would not think of twisting the words of someone's post to insult them like that. But I will RESPECTFULLY answer the points of your post.
[QUOTE]But a comparison can be made to What Cheney and Bush do. Hitler used some very basic techniques to accomplish his desires. Simplistically, they are, 1)create an enemy to fear (Hitler: Judaism, Bush: Islam), exploit that fear,... [\QUOTE]
The fear of Judaism in Nazi Germany is quite different from the feelings toward Islam in modern day America. Bush isn't running around advocating racist doctrines...he wasn't elected because he played on fears of Islam; he's not drawing his support from fear of Islam. Islamic people are not feared or shunned by Americans - and any such stories are met with sympathy from the press and the public.
Hitler took over state governments by throwing out office holders and replacing them with Nazi Reich commissioners. Hitler wrestled over the power to make laws, control budgets, and sign foreign treaties. Now, Bush has blundered over a few laws, but he comes nowhere near that.Quote:
...slowly take away the rights of the people, establish yourself as sole leader.
Perhaps the basic techniques are similar...but the scope of comparison is so large that you might as well compare a snowstorm to an ice age.
Hitler's worst and most remembered actions deal with the Holocaust. To make a connection between the two as I did, then, is not completely illogical.Quote:
THAT was MY comparison to Hitler, not to WWII or the Holocaust.
Ranting is good. And healthy. :D Let it all out.Quote:
Sorry I do tend to rant sometimes, lol.
I'm not sure how religion got played into this, but it wasn't the context I was referring to either - it hardly ever is, since I am an atheist. The concept of evil....is a debate in it of itself. I don't like to label absolutes. The world, I think, isn't black and white, it's shades of grey. And the moment we begin to think otherwise, the world gets dangerous.Quote:
Ayle, I've seen John56's post on these subjects for awhile, and I'm guess (I don't want to put words in his mouth-just my guess) is that he isn't referring to evil as a religious fanatic does, but they way people refer to mass murders or child abusers. A person who hurts others for purely selfish reasons. Without implying demonic possession or supernatural intervention, I refer to people like child murders as evil, and I believe John56 does too.
On the other hand...
Agree.Quote:
Bush, Cheney and their administration have attempted to change what it means to actually BE an American.
Agree.Quote:
A man who has taken the very office he has been elected to and deformed that office and mutated that office into his own petty dictatorship, is reprehensible.
Agree.Quote:
I don't compare the last war in America's history that had any nobility at all to Iraq. But the president has, and the Republican pundits have.
And agree.Quote:
Iraq is a petty war of choice for monetary gain, cloaked in lies.
It's not your direction I'm against, it's the distance.
I've had this debate several times before. It comes out of being friends with a lot of adamantly liberal Bush-haters. To be honest, I don't wish to be embroiled in another heated dispute on the same topic. Therefore, I will politely withdraw my voice from further comments on this thread - that is, unless I feel compelled to answer, or anyone demands a response.
Damn, Lady, I hate to admit it, but you've got a point, and kinda nailed me to the wall with facts and figures.
You's a tough, Lady. I won't mess with you again unless I have all my ducks in a row. And you're right. It was comparing a snow storm to the ice age.
Thank you for the correction.
And I hope you do not withdraw from the discussion. I'm definitely a "more, the merrier" type guy. Maybe you could add a little perspective to us "hot under the collar" types.
And this may sound like a contradiction, but I had fun with the discussion, every minute of it. And thanks for being a part of it.
A friend, TG
Oooooh, Libby. I remember that name. I don’t think his sentence being commutted is all too surprising.
His crime was giving up the name of an undercover agent. Who just happened to be the wife of Joseph Wilson. And also just happened that this detail got released after he vocalized his strong doubts about the Bush administration’s justification for the war in Iraq.
Basically the US government’s way of telling critics to shut up or face some interesting consequences.
Libby agrees to take the heat so the government itself doesn’t get accused of this crime and he gets an automatic pardon for his obedience.
So yeah, not surprising at all, in my opinion, anyway. I’m sure he will end up with a full pardon or at most a slap on the wrist. Bush has so far said he hasn’t ruled out the idea and saying it’s a touch decision to give a twinkle of being honest. Just a twinkle.
Ocean_Soul,
So far, just about everybody on this post has felt just about like you did. Only differences in intensity.
I don't think you could find many people on this site who would take an opposite view.
That guy, duffus what's his name, is just incredible in his indifference to anything but his own goals and agenda.
What surprises me the most is the number of Repubs that support him. Loyalty to what?
What I am happy with is that they're destroying their own party without the help of anyone else. Couldn't happen to a better bunch of people.
It seems that way. The difference may be that I think this form of corruption isn't unique to this administration or this particular political party and it's really nothing new.Quote:
Originally Posted by TG
There are several new books out on the Clintons. I haven't read the book but have made a point to watching interviews with the authors. The consensus of the authors is that the Clinton do have a genuine believe in the government as a source of service and help to the people.
That isn't to say they aren't political animals, or free from faults. One author criticized Hillary as playing "fast and loose with the truth" to cover up mistakes she had made, being secretive, and unwilling to admit mistakes. In short, they've got a blemish or two.
But they, according to the authors, do believe government should serve the people.
It's consistent with what I know of her record, such as her continuous support of child welfare and education.
I think there is a difference, arguably large or small.
In New York, their new Dem. Governor seems to be a hell on wheels reformer who looks for appointees not in the states political machines, but sometimes by advertizing in the "Want Ad" for any comers.
PS. Nice to hear from you Ocean_Soul
TG
Ha. I guess that's me. How many hours did the discussion last? Two, three? Four, perhaps? Fun times.Quote:
I've had this debate several times before. It comes out of being friends with a lot of adamantly liberal Bush-haters.
That's how I felt too. Ayla, gotta love that sharp tongue of yours...for multiple reasons. ;)Quote:
And this may sound like a contradiction, but I had fun with the discussion, every minute of it.
Thread in general: I concur with the overall sentiments. Libby shouldn't have gotten away with it. About Bush's evilness: I fall somewhere in between.
I’d have to agree there, Clinton was probably one of the better US presidents, both domestically and internationally. Again, not to say he was perfect, I can’t remember the details but I believe there was another Libby-like incident where this time someone was allowed to walk so he wouldn’t spill the beans. I forget most of the details oddly enough other than I believe it had something to do with South America.Quote:
Originally Posted by TG
My interest in US politics is mostly in their international relations so I don’t know much about matters domestic unless they have some synergy with international events. Like the war on terror’s collaboration with America’s apparent war on its own citizens and the innumerable collection of lies (or attempts as I don't know how many are actually buying them all) regarding the Iraq war being spread around.
Also, I think a couple here are aiming a lot of blame at Bush for poor international relations. Remember after 9/11 and America’s call to arms got the support of essentially no-one? The good-will towards the United States by the international community was already pretty dry at that time. There’s something deeper that needs to be addressed and won’t end with Bush and Chaney leaving office.
Hi Ocean_Soul,
Great to see someone interested in the political section.
"Like the war on terror’s collaboration with America’s apparent war on its own citizens and the innumerable collection of lies (or attempts as I don't know how many are actually buying them all) regarding the Iraq war being spread around."
Without claiming much accuracy, about 50%-50% of the American public seems very gullible or aware of what's going on. You're right about it being a war on it's own citizens. People just don't get Bush was a demagogue who spouted some clinches at them, and used them for his own political purposes.
It drives me batty.
Gullibility is a psychological problem involving how integrated the personality is. What are you going to do? Send several million people to psychologists for 8yrs., against their will?
"Also, I think a couple here are aiming a lot of blame at Bush for poor international relations. Remember after 9/11 and America’s call to arms got the support of essentially no-one? The good-will towards the United States by the international community was already pretty dry at that time. There’s something deeper that needs to be addressed and won’t end with Bush and Chaney leaving office."[/QUOTE]
I found your last paragraph fascinating and surprising. I didn't realize our good will abroad was so bad before Bush came to office, and I was one of the ones blaming him for our disastrous international standing. I hope you elaborate because you certainly have got my attention.
"There’s something deeper that needs to be addressed and won’t end with Bush and Chaney leaving office."[/QUOTE]
You've got to spell that one out. You can't leave with that tease as your parting comment. Do you mean our naivety and feeling of self-importance? We have no monopoly on that. That's a human condition, that each of us struggles with. Been to France recently? Hell, the better name for that would be "maturation."
Ocean_Soul, what did you do? Open a can of worms?
TG
I don't really know a lot about this, aside from a brief piece I saw on the news. I have to say my initially reaction was not to feel sad or disturbed, but to wonder what dirty little secrets he might be habouring, that people in high places don't want revealed.Quote:
Originally Posted by John56
Beautiful Aussie Alex,
Yes, the $64 billion dollar question. And the reason his sentence has been commuted. A lot of pundits seem to agree that Libby would be singing like a bird if he went to Prison. So even with all the criticism, this helps the criminal Bush Administration.
IMHO
John
TG,
”Without claiming much accuracy, about 50%-50% of the American public seems very gullible or aware of what's going on. You're right about it being a war on it's own citizens. People just don't get Bush was a demagogue who spouted some clinches at them, and used them for his own political purposes.”
I don’t put too strong of a blame the American public. A lot of factors have turned people’s lives inwards, towards things that really only serve to benefit themselves. It’s not selfishness either. We have 600 channels of nothing, global sporting events that some people waste their lives following (as opposed to just being interested), the internet for people like us who have an interest and can now finally interact with other likeminded people on a grand scale that weren’t really there before. Our level of distraction just keeps rising. There is simply too much information. There are also factors that may or may not have been planned such as, as I’ve mentioned before, the privatization of pretty much everything which goes with the thinking “why should I spend my money (taxes) on someone else (eg. elderly)”
”Gullibility is a psychological problem involving how integrated the personality is. What are you going to do? Send several million people to psychologists for 8yrs., against their will? “
This is one of the reasons why I’ve taken up learning about psychology. These are just new facts to me so I could be getting them wrong. But ask a group of people to do anything, approximately 18% will agree to do your request without much of any coercion. So here’s a start. The second idea that I fond interesting that’s related to this is people in a group tend to generate polarized positions and are pressured by the group to conform. However if you generate just a little bit of decent it frees up people to make more personal decisions in general. So if you want to help free people from external pressures a few differing opinions (vocalized!) go a long way. This effect during the start of the war in Iraq seemed to be fought against by, most notably in my mind, Bill O’Really’s “Just shut up” campaign calling upon everyone who disagrees with the war to just shut up. People like me who take an interest in these issues roll their eyes and logically tear those ideas to shreds. Person X with 1 newborn baby to take care of and one in collage and bills to bay etc might agree because they don’t care and in their defense too busy to care. That and if you ask anybody which issues not to bring up to save good relations you always hear “religion and politics.” Religion I can understand because it’s usually an inalterable position. Politics, people need to learn have a healthier attitude towards in general and not do their part in destroying their country by not supporting political talk.
Oh, and another interesting factoid that I have learned. People who do no more than write something down saying they support X are more likely to work much harder in support of X than those who don’t. Something to remember next time you fill something out in which you align yourself with a political party.
”I found your last paragraph fascinating and surprising. I didn't realize our good will abroad was so bad before Bush came to office, and I was one of the ones blaming him for our disastrous international standing. I hope you elaborate because you certainly have got my attention.”
It’s not obvious by any means. It makes sense that it wouldn’t be considering the US is the super power of our age. Nobody wants to piss you off. I won’t go into everything but here are some things that come to mind right away:
The US has veto power in the United Nations and, in my opinion, is quite addicted to using it whenever its interests might be threatened by a resolution (including some that deal with human rights). If you look into UN records and see who vetoed what the US appears a good 90% of the time (my estimate). But than again, that’s not to blame the US too much, the other dominant powers did it when they had their spotlight after WW2.
Add that the US really hasn’t done anything recently to really improve anything, except for the agreement between the US and Russia that it’s probably a good idea to think that something should be done about the loose nuclear weapons that exist after the collapse of the Soviet Union. This little bit of inaction is also a bit of proof that America’s War On Terror (tm) is somewhat of a sham. Oh and Africa is still in shambles.
Than there’s the fact that many bits of foreign aid and whatnot are usually played in such a way to benefit the US. And not in terms of stability or the good feeling you get when you help someone. It has more often than not made the country worse off than it would have been if they were left alone.
I’ll leave it at that as the facts are out there for those interested. Start reading anywhere and you’ll be taken down a rather interesting rabbit hole.
”You've got to spell that one out. You can't leave with that tease as your parting comment. Do you mean our naivety and feeling of self-importance? “
America’s a big country with lots of stuff going on. I tend not to blame people and rather shift blame to the situation. Not to mention it is THE international super power currently. Like the elephant and the mouse. The elephant, because of its size and invulnerability to external factors pays no attention to them. But the mouse, who the sick elephant can fall on cares greatly about it. So that can at least partially explain why I’m interested. But that’s not really the deeper issue that needs to be resolved.
As far as my opinion goes it’s the corporations hand in everything that is one of the major issues. Add that to the fact that this connects the media, business and government in one big chain that needs to be broken to improve the situation.
How major and what are the other issues? I don’t know. Which is part of the reason why I didn’t expand on my “teasing” remark, I simply don’t know.
”Ocean_Soul, what did you do? Open a can of worms?”
Maybe. But I think it’s one worth having open.
Ocean_Soul,
I had conveniently forgotten many of the things you brought up. They were the cause of my own dissatisfaction with my government. But it's so pleasant to forget unpleasant facts sometimes.
Your entirely right about the corporations. It is a show run by them, played before our eyes 24/7 by the media. People that advocate a 3rd. party are entirely right in the benefits they attribute to it. It's just not practicably viable.
I'm very glad you opened that can of worms.
In the Carmona tread I erroneously attributed to you a position on American gullibility. I wanted to discuss that, and I was looking for any hobbyhorse I could find to ride in order to do it. I'm sorry I used what you said for my own purposes. Not intentional. Wishful thinking. What you said was a little ambiguous, and I wished it implied what I wanted it to do.
I think what you and I want to do is to get to the truth, and I think we both believe the way to do that is through public discussion like this. I am attributing that to you, and if I'm wrong, I hope you correct me. I'm standing by.
it's alright, I figured the reasons were innocent enough. I just wanted to be clear. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TG
one thing though. Bush havent used his power to pardon much at all compared to what Clinton did or Bush the older one did when they were in power.
But as a non American I cant say that it affects me in the least bit though.