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At cariad's request, I'm starting this thread to share some information and perspectives about transsexuality. And other unconventional-gender-expression topics, but mostly transsexuality since that's what I have first-hand experience with.
I don't have exactly have a syllabus planned out for this or anything. I think I'll just write posts about relevant sub-topics as they occur to me. People asking questions would help a lot. :)
Something very basic and very useful when talking about these things is to keep in mind the difference between sex and gender. They're used synonymously in most everyday conversation, but people who talk about these things a lot generally use sex to refer to anatomy or genetics, and gender to refer to a person's mental or social identity. (For example, having a vagina and XX chromosomes are characteristics of female sex, while wearing a dress and calling onesself Mrs. instead of Mr. are characteristics of female gender.)
With those definitions in place, it's a lot easier to describe what "transsexual" means. In a nutshell, a transsexual is a person whose sex does not match their gender. A longer but more exact definition would be something like "a person who was born with a male-sexed body and a female-gendered mind, or a female-sexed body and a male-gendered mind". The various medical treatments we TS's tend to undergo - hormone therapy, electrolysis to remove hair, surgery to alter genitalia or to add or remove breasts, etc. - all have the goal of modifying a person's sex to be in line with their gender.
(Of course, no amount of surgery or medication can alter a person's chromosomes, and every transsexual goes through some period where they identify as one gender but out of necessity live as the other in most parts of their life, until it becomes feasible to "come out" as their true gender. In other words, it's possible for someone to be male-sexed in some ways and female-sexed in others thanks to incomplete medical treatments, and since "gender" can refer to personal identity but also to social identity it's possible to be male-gendered in one way but female-gendered in others, too. That's why the "sex doesn't match their gender" definition isn't as exact as it could be.)
A point that sometimes gets lost in all the explanations and supportiveness is that, well, people who suffer from transsexuality really do suffer. It sucks to be transsexual. Trying to live as the person you know you are, when society, your family, and your own body are all lining up to oppose that is hard. It's stressful as hell and emotionally exhausting. Some of us are lucky enough to have family that eventually comes around and to live in places where it's more accepted overall. (Others? Not so lucky.) Even with that support it sucks. I don't think I'm engaging in hyperbole when I say that the long-term effects of living as a transsexual are very comparable to post-traumatic stress disorder, if in a less acute and more chronic way. It's not something I would wish on anyone... and I'm a pretty vindictive bitch sometimes. :)
Damn... this post turned out kind of depressing. I guess a depressing post had to happen sooner or later with this kind of thread topic, though.
Having both tits and a cock is pretty far from depressing, right? Fun Fun Fun
Tom, I can honestly say that I have no desire to have a cock - would not know what to do with the thing! That I would find depressing. Very happy as I am.
Thank you Natalie, you are already taking me up the learning curve. I am going to move this thread to knowledge base, since that seems the right home for it.
cariad
Natalie-
Thanks for starting this thread. I will admit it is not something about which I know a whole lot as up to now it has been outside of my life experience.
The emotional pulls must be astronomical-as must the desire to "fit in" Few can stand against the "will of the herd"
I will follow this thread with interest and increase my knowledge of it all. I hope I don't sound condescending...Bugger. I don't mean to.
Ed.
The major problem is that not even transexuals understand it, let alone the whole medical scientific community. This is very much on theory level still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Ed
The two theories I think makes the most sense is 1) the "queer theory" where our genders are defined by 10 hormones that we can have in various quantities. These define our gender. The genetic theory. Only one of these define our physical characteristics, ie testosterone. In theory, the other ones define our behaviour and sexual preference. If all or some are on the "opposing" side we get confused.
Genetically women are the base model for humanity, and the male is just added parts. That's why men are susceptible to about twice as many genetic diseases as women, because of the diseases that only attack the male part can't touch girls. While diseases that attack the female part can effect both men and women.
2) Another theory I like is that in order for gender confusion to arise we need first up very strong images of female and male behaviour. Where certain behaviour is taboo for the other sex, especially when it comes to flirting and sexual initiative, and we simply identify with the patterns allowed for the opposite sex.
Anyhoo, none of these are even remotely proven and we're still very far off from getting any definite answers. And as far as funds for research it's not going very well. Not even the gay-rights people seem to be interested in finding money for this. It's a shame.
A good friend of both Xanthos and me completed her transformation two years ago. And I have talked to her a long time about the mental aspect that goes with it. She had a lot of gf's in the past before she finally decided to undergo the operations and before the change she would never tought she would have a bf. But right after the first operation she found herself liking guys more and more (in a sexual aspect). It was (and I quote) "I could finally let go of my mask".
When she still had the male parts it just didn't make sense (don't know how else to put it). Now she is what she always was to us. A female. It just fits somehow.
She was lucky to have a supportive family and alot of friends that had already accepted the fact that he was a she before she even considered the surgery. And I think you really should have a group of people around you that support you to the fullest (besides the counceling and therapy that are offered when you consider the real change).
The best of luck to you and thank you for being so open about it!
Thanks Natalie for kicking off this thread and giving yourself the time to talk with us and enlighten us about transsexuality (in the sense of living with a wish for permanent sex change; transgender, to me, is a larger umbrella concept that covers all those who don't, overall, feel unequivocally at ease with the social/sexual gender that their current bodily sex would assign them, and who have in some sense a desire to move beyond that "vanilla gender").
Hope no one will mind me adding a link to this truly interesting, honest and commmunicative blog of a trans woman's journey through her sex change to become what she had long felt she should be, from the first meeting with a psychologist/therapist in 2000 to now, seven years and hundreds of hours of electrolysis (hair/skin) treatment later:
http://membhtml adding links to other forums is againt the rules --sorry
Natalie,
Thank you for starting this thread. I must admit a deep curiousity about transgendered people, and a desire to understand them. I do have a coupl;e of fiends who are tg's, but I know very little about what they go through. I can imagine some of the discrimination they face, but not all of it, and it should not be that way.
thanks for starting this thread and sharing with us
Gods, no, it's not fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Ok, there are some transwomen who don't mind it so much, but for me, that wang is worse than useless. The idea of actually fucking someone with it makes me nauseous. My last boyfriend liked going down on me... sometimes, if I lay still and concentrated really hard on some elaborate fantasy, and tried to ignore physical sensations as much as possible... he could get somewhere with that. Usually it just wasn't worth the bother to me.
For me, "sex" basically means "we make out for a while, then I go down on them". I look forward to surgery as something that will let me finally try out this fucking thing everyone talks so much about.
The genetic diseases that affect men more than women generally do so because the Y chromosome is missing stuff that's on the X... (And what does this have to do with transsexuality anyway?)Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Ok, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is bullshit.Quote:
2) Another theory I like is that in order for gender confusion to arise we need first up very strong images of female and male behaviour. Where certain behaviour is taboo for the other sex, especially when it comes to flirting and sexual initiative, and we simply identify with the patterns allowed for the opposite sex.
Transsexuality is not about conforming to gender stereotypes. People who identify with the patterns conventionally assigned to the opposite sex become femme men or butch women. Y'know why reputable surgeons generally require that someone wanting genital surgery have at least a year of psychological counseling and at least a year of living full-time as the desired gender? It's to weed out people who think they should be the opposite sex because they identify with those social patterns. People like that usually end up very unhappy after the transition, and if they had surgery before trying it out they're now stuck with the unwanted genitals.
Transsexuals don't necessarily conform to gender stereotypes. I'll take my steel-toed boots over any damn high heels, thanks. ^_^
Bravo Nacy, thank you for not letting this pass without challenge. I have heard this before, and I know that it applies only rarely. I really want to understand this, but I honestly think it would be easier for me to live on the surface of the sun for a year. I just do my best to accept my friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieD
That's an opinion to. Neither of us can "win" this because neither of us have anything to back it up with.Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieD
I personally think you underestimate our need to conform to social behaviour patterns. I also think that only some of them are conscious choices. Most aren't.
Well, I don't know about you, but I have my own personal experiences, those of the half-dozen or so other transsexuals I know and have discussed these things with, and medical standards of care backing up my position.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
I just don't see how can credit a hypothesis with so many clear counterexamples.
I mentioned the two theories I've read about that I think makes the most sense. They are also contradictory to each other, so I obviously don't believe both. I wouldn't put my money on either of them, but certainly no other. I have them on my "highly interesting" list.Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieD
When it comes to psychology, the person who understands us the least are usually ourselves. Wouldn't you agree?
What have you been reading that you came across that theory? That second-wave-radical-feminism stuff will rot your brain, you know. ;)
Moving on! Let's talk about some distinctions that non-transsexual people often miss.
Although the words sound similar, being transsexual has little to do with a person's sexuality. I find it interestingly peculiar how many people who are entirely accepting and understanding of homosexuality, and seem to have a pretty good handle on the trans stuff as well, become confused when a transsexual person is also gay/lesbian. "Why go to all that bother to be a woman if you're just going to have sex with women anyway?", or something like that. Well, that's not really how it works. Whatever factors determine sexual preference and gender identity in a person aren't linked that way; just like genetic women, most transwomen prefer men but some don't, or like both genders, and the same for transmen in reverse. It's about identity, not sex. (Well, it's kind of about sex in that I'd much rather have sex with female parts than with the male ones I was born with, but that's kind of a different issue.)
Although, again, the words sound similar, transsexual and transvestite are two different things. A transvestite would be a man who gets a sexual kick out of wearing feminine clothing. (Theoretically it could be the reverse, but in practice I've never even heard of a woman with a fetish for wearing male clothing. Since most male clothing in modern Western cultures is only subtly distinguishable from some common types of female clothing, this isn't really surprising.) A transvestite man might or might not affect a female identity while dressed up, but either way he'll go back to his default gender for most of his everyday life. A permanent and irreversible gender change in all aspects of life likely holds little to no appeal, except perhaps as an extreme fantasy element. (Sort of like how someone might fantasize about being raped but not actually want it to happen.) Sometimes "cross-dresser" is used instead of "transvestite" to indicate that the person is assuming a more complete female identity and has reasons more complex than sexual stimulation, although that's frequently still a part of it.
"Transgender" is a word I try not to use. It was originally coined as an alternative term for what I call "transsexual", for reasons such as not causing people to think that the condition is sexuality-related. Since then "transgender" has been picked up by a number of different people and used in very broad ways to try to inclusively cover transsexuals, transvestites, cross-dressers, intersexed people, bigendered people, "genderqueer" people, women who wear pants, and all sorts of other categories. It's my opinion that the term has been diluted into uselessness. Even worse, it suggests that transsexuals and cross-dressers are together in some category apart from everyone else. I am very unfond of that misconception.
Natalie, thanks so much for starting this thread. I've learned so much already from your openness and honesty. Please continue to share.
ive never persoanlly known anyone who was transgender/sexually but reading your thread it feels im getting to know you, so much about you and its such a learning experience for me..thanks for sharing natalie *hugs*
Like drag kings you mean? I know a couple where both identify themselves as male but they've got a daughter together. One of them has a beard at the same time as undeniably being physically a woman. Even I find that confusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieD
We have a gang of drag kings who show up at our parties. One of them was adamant about getting a piece of my ass for far too long :) How about that for gender role reverse.
Risking to change the subject here. I don't like the polarising effect feminism has a tendency to have. Just because we've all seen stupid ass feminists in the media waffling on about retarded clap-trap doesn't mean their theories they base their stuff on is wrong. There's lots of feminist thinkers who are pretty solid. All the famous ones I've read I think are. And being a woman in every country in the entire world sucks economically more than being a man. Women have always had less options than men in life. This is hard to argue with, so "radical second-wave feminists" do always have a point, no matter how stupid their conclusions may be.
Nat,
This thread just keeps getting better, thank you.
Have to agree with you here Tom, but Nat is telling you that this particular theory does not really deserve to be called a theory. I would use this particular definition of theory here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Except I would just guess that they just assume this for the sake of argument. Just because some of their theories are good, does not mean all of them are, something that I am sure you can relate to.Quote:
a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption
I respect Nat's opinion and I agree that there exists theories in every field that sucks so bad they suck the stale sweat off a dead donkeys shrivelled up balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhabbi
ROFLMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Could not have said it better Tom.
What does gender anything, reversed or not, have to do with wanting a piece of Tom's ass?? I mean, have you seen it?? It's a fine one. Anyone would go for that ass. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Natalie, this subject has fascinated me for so long. It's good to have your perspective on it all. My thanks.
tessa :wave:
Just read in the paper about how one of the most well-known writers/journalists of Sweden, Jan Guillou (who is also an icon of masculinity) was stopped in an airport security check in neighbouring Norway and subjected to some body search; he didn't have to strip though. The security man "got more and more curious about my crotch...when he reached down into my boxers and touched my dick I felt this was really way out, but he just snickered at me like it was standard procedure"
Oh, I know about drag kings. It's just that none of them that I've heard from or about do that because they get sexual arousal from wearing those clothes. They generally have other reasons - some are like the inverse of drag queens, doing it as a performance, and others use the term "drag king" but have something more in the way of identity. What I'm trying to say is that drag kings aren't being drag kings because wearing briefs turns them on. So far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Hey, I'm no enemy of feminism. I'm proud to call myself feminist. I was just referring to some of the... less-in-touch-with-reality strains of thought found in certain areas of second-wave feminism. Things like lesbian separatism, or "BDSM recreates partriarchal power structures and is therefore sexist and unacceptable even in lesbian relationships", or "transsexuals are really just men trying to infiltrate women's spaces". Or, well, "gender is an artificial social construction, and if it weren't for cultural programming we wouldn't have gender identities, just anatomical differences". Y'know, I actually believed fairly strongly in that last one before I realized that I was a girl despite my anatomy. (Yes, I was thinking about gender theory when my age was still measured in single digits. I was kind of a precocious kid in some ways.)Quote:
Risking to change the subject here. I don't like the polarising effect feminism has a tendency to have. Just because we've all seen stupid ass feminists in the media waffling on about retarded clap-trap doesn't mean their theories they base their stuff on is wrong. There's lots of feminist thinkers who are pretty solid. All the famous ones I've read I think are. And being a woman in every country in the entire world sucks economically more than being a man. Women have always had less options than men in life. This is hard to argue with, so "radical second-wave feminists" do always have a point, no matter how stupid their conclusions may be.
I think it's simply down to women wearing male clothing isn't exactly revolutionary in today's society. So maybe the women who are trannies tend to be overlooked. Butch lesbians being my prime example. There's plenty of those around, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieD
The gang I mentioned earlier drew on moustaches and beards, so it became a little bit more, in your face. As are male to female trannies.
And there's plenty of hetero women who enjoy behaving and dressing like men. That's so common that hardly anybody reacts.
I'm with Freud on this one. It's all sex. The way we dress is only about sex. If we like dressing as a man, it's because it turns us on, no matter our sex. I guess the only people who are exempt are the people wearing stuff they have to. But I'm not sure here either. The doctors I know tend to get pretty sexually attached to their doctors stuff. But then again, I mostly hang out with perverts. I'm going to a party tomorrow which will be 16/20 doctors. I can ask them :)
I'd by and large agree with you, Tom: women wearing (ordinary) male clothing is not seen as extraordinary today - only 80 years ago a woman wearing trousers, not to speak of´a male-style jacket, was a political statement, and could even be seen as a denial of her own femininity.
I've been to a few parties with dykes and drag kings who were into uniform stuff and male costumes (police, cowboys etc) and it was obvious that some of them didn't just see it as a roleplay thing but also felt sexually thrilled and empowered by wearing police shirts and caps, prop guns, loose beards and the like. So I think the element of sexual identity can't be denied in crossdressing, and also there's no hard-and-fast line dividing sexual role and physical role (here: the wish to be, in your body, the sex which you feel, genderwise, you belong to).
I'll just have to add here Louise that I was at a fetish party in London where a guy had a Swedish gorgeous military uniform. When I saw it, I just wanted to hump his leg. and I'm not even into uniforms. Him being muscular and pretty didn't make things better. Anyhoo it was his work clothes, and he didn't feel like making an effort that evening.
I was so envious.
Surely an interresting thread.
I dont really have much input here though more than an ex of mines brother is a TG and not so uncommon, one of the most beautiful girls I have ever met.
lovely to get to know more cause it is a subject that isnt really coming through in media at all even though Gays have gotten a foot in luckily but TGs havent really gotten a chance yet.
I got my first laser hair removal treatment yesterday.
Daaamn.
Remember earlier in this thread when I was talking about the stress and emotional pain of being transsexual? I think I forgot to mention the physical pain. It felt like she was heating up a bunch of half-inch slivers of jagged metal and then hammering them into my face one or two at a time. I mean I enjoy a good flogging, but this went way beyond that. Ow ow ow. And the crackling noise and burning smell didn't do much to reassure me.
At least the pain didn't last too long afterwards. Now I just have the sunburn from hell all up and down my face. Hopefully that'll clear up before I go to work on Monday.
Gah, ouchie -- good luck, I hear that's pretty rough to go through. If it helps any, I hear electrolysis is way worse :(
Can that be done on the pussy to?Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieD
The price guide in the back of the pamphlet does mention "bikini (natural line)" and "bikini (extended)" among the options...Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
*shudder*