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I am thinking... D/s relationship is not only limited to lovers, i am thinking about parents and kids - initially parents are the dominant, they control the children, later on when these kids grow up, they try to build their own world, they want to be dominant - not only outside their house but also inside their house, but now what about the DOM parents - what if they are not willing to go sub, how will it work out? should they knowingly switch the roles? how many parents realise this?
Hmmmm... I really and truly have no idea about that... As helpful as ever! NOTHING MAN AWAY!....
You have hit why so many teens are at odds with their parents.
I can see that the parent in their very senior years may have no choice but to make that switch
But while the teen or young adult is living at the parents home he or she has no right to try to be the dominant figure,
I think this situation is what set me up to be so submissive.
I was raised in a rather strict... yet very loving home. The children were doted upon.. our mother cooked amazing meals... sewed.. tended our every need when she did not have to work outside of the home..
Our father worked very hard came home at the end of the day to a meal on the table and a clean home..
There were rules and we were expected to follow them.. if we didn't there were consequences.... I was too afraid of disapointing my parents to do anything bad ....although the punishments were never very harsh.
I think because of that I just got used to doing as I was told.. folowing the rules... cherishing the love... the discipline... etc....
I am sure a DOM DOM situation cannot work out... what are the ways to prevent conflicts? how to reduce the impact of such a conflict?
I think it all has to do with how the children are raised and the amount of respect that is earned by both the parent and the child during that process.
What I mean is... as my children get older they may not like my "Dominate" perspective as far as house rules, etc. But in that same process, if I have raised them right, they will respect the fact that I am the parent and therefore have the right to set the rules. In that same process though, they have hopefully built a level of respect and trust with me so that, like any good Dom, I do not have the need/desire to micromanage them. They will do what they know they should out of the want to please and have enough respect to speak to me directly when they disagree understanding that it still may not go their way. With, in return, my respecting and trusting in them to do as they should and to remain open to them when discussion is necessary.
*goes off hoping that the above will be a future reality and not just a glass bubble concept on my part.... *
I think it becomes a process of negotiation and compramise.
When childeren start to become older, they want to experience more independence and freedom to govern thier own choices.
While the parent may always remain in the Dom mode, they must also realize that the child needs to be able to make thier owns choices and be able to function on thier own. I would think that the solution is to step back and let the child become independent, but to also maintain that Dominance over them to control some of thier choices. To be able to set down certain rules and guidlines while letting go of the control just a little bit at a time.
In my own experience, I pushed for more control, and my parents pushed back to keep thier own control, I pushed harder.
The end result was cutting me out of the will, forcing me to leave home, and living on my own with no proper guidelines as to how to make choices and live in society. That doesn't mean that parents should not push for control, they just have to learn to let go and still maintain control when things go wrong.
Respect, respect, respect! Sir Russell hit the nail on the head by saying this is something that parents and teens struggle with this. I've also read about "unruly" children that enlist in the military, and come home with a more respectful attitude toward their parents. I have no idea what happens when they're gone, but finding someone that has been through military training might help find a path of understanding in a shared household.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReqSpec
This one statement was like an awakening for me! Thank you Cadence. Like you, I pushed my parents. So much, in fact, that they started the registration process for me into an all girls school and sent me to counseling. After a few visits, the counselor told my parents that even though I may push back and reason my out of or into situations, I wanted rules and boundaries. Most kids do, actually. Don't let the "rebel" attitude fool you. It's the rules and boundaries that make children (and submissives) feel safe and cared for.Quote:
Originally Posted by cadence
Sorry. I think this is a bad perspective. There is a world of difference between dominant-submissive interaction and parent-child interactions, (kink aside.)
And teens don't rebel if the parents recognize how to transition them from parent-child to adult-adult. (BTW, Parents who can't make that transition make bad bosses too. Do you know somebody like that?)
Every adult-adult relationship has a leader and a follower, so it doesn't mean the parent has to give up his authority. Just how s/he wields it changes.
Give the child opportunities to take responsibility for his/her actions early enough, and they learn. Command that they be responsible and they will resist.
Having experience with teenage boys in my home, they will push just to see how far they can go. I'm ok with this to a point, if they are defending a viewpoint, or debating an opinion I will give them much lattitude, I understand it's part of becomming an adult. However when we cross the line of respect to myself or other family members I'm very DOM. Telling mom to f@#$ off will get them put up against the wall and they know this, they understand I am the alpha male. The result of them knowing this, I never have to do it.
My alpha just sent me her response to this post for my approval, so I thought I’d come see for myself. And, frankly, I am struggling to be polite!Quote:
Originally Posted by ReqSpec
That is, I hasten to add, no reflection on anyone who has posted an opinion here. What saddens me is that this entire topic is actually based on a fairly accurate description of how many people choose to bring up their kids. For many people, parenting is a power-struggle — a struggle to achieve and maintain dominance over their offspring in a battle for control.
And that is just such a fucked-up philosophy it makes me want to spit blood! And I do not mean my own blood! Forget cultural & religious differences. Forget about philosophy, morality and everything else metaphysical. As a parenting strategy, thinking D/s is wrong simply because it does not work! Unless, of course, one’s definition of success is to add yet another batch of fucked-up people to an already fucked-up world!
Having watched my first-born son die in front of me, I know children for what they are — a gift of evolution given to enrich our lives and perpetuate our genes. They are not born slaves, under contract until they reach the age of majority. They are not our possessions to do with as we please. They are new people — strangers on a foreign shore. Childhood is a relatively modern concept. I think our ancestors had it right. Children are individuals in their own right who simply have the misfortune of needing to wait a couple of decades to acquire the mental & physical tools they need to express their adult individuality.
Until then, they are in our care. As parents, we are their guardians, charged by Nature with a duty to watch over and protect them until they can fend for themselves and hopefully have children of their own. It’s not about ruling and/or moulding them to our liking. It's about helping them to grow and become the best person they can be — their OWN person! It’s about being their mentor and life-guide — about saying, not “do this or else”, but rather saying: “these are the options and my recommendations, but it’s your life so choose, knowing you’ll have to live with the consequences of your decision!”
There is no D/s dynamic involved in that — no power struggle or battle for dominance and control. Let’s face it, ultimately we are all subject to the will of the Universe whether we like it or not. Teach that lesson to your children and Life will take care of the rest. As parents, we just have to be there for our kids to make sure they survive the learning experience.
I have two living children I can admit to, by the way. Both are now grown-up (officially anyway) but I brought them up mostly as a lone-parent. In other words, I’ve been up feeding them in the middle of the night, I have cleaned up their shit, dried their tears, nursed them through illness and a lot more besides. My reward is to see them as they are now — two people of whom I can be proud because they have every reason to be proud of themselves!
A final thought — parenting is about raising children to be capable of living without us in the hope that they choose not to.
PS: Sorry, alpha, but you know me. St Jude ialways was my patron saint. you can speak now.
i think trying to make children into some D/s dynamic is a recipe for disaster and mental/emotional problems. i understand that it is essentially a traditional way of raising children (with different words) but i think that sort of thing keeps therapists in business.
in dealing with helping to raise my Owner's kids i've tried very hard to be equals with them- people equal in value but not in experience or in responsibility. that didnt make me a push over or their buddy or someone who wouldnt step up and make the hard choices. quite the opposite really. i took the position that i am here to help teach them from my own experience in life, with the goal of helping them have the happiest, healthiest life of their choosing. helping them however i can to their happiness and wellbeing is my responsibility and one of the most important things in my life..very few other people in life will want the best for them with no ulterior motives of their own... therefore listening to me is self interest on their part. no enforcement necessary. they listened to me because i so obviously cared and was NOT trying to force them into my own picture of them. it's been anything healthy that you want to do is fine.. and i'll fight you to the mat if you're trying to hurt yourself somehow... because i love you and its my job to protect you, even from you.
and im pretty sure ive said similar things directly to them.
and they dont always listen. but there is no need to do anything to enforce "obediance" or some such.. because they kick themselves for Us when they get to the end of insisting on going their own way, against Our advice, and then see that yet again We were right. and they say themselves "when will I learn to listen to you guys?"..(soon i hope- listen first and skip the need to kick yourself later)
this eliminates the problem of the dominant party needing to find a way to cope with no longer enforcing Dominance.. because that problem doesnt exsist if the children arent being Dominated and controlled. this way they simply grow up into equals who have gained life experience and we can all help each other now. if one of them someday knows better how to do something than i do then i will be glad to take their advice or help with it, the same as they took mine when they didnt know.
and by the way its hard to rebell when there's no force being applied. (they managed a bit but not much *smile* they had to get resourceful *L*).
guidance and advice seems to have worked out just fine. once in a very very great while they were directly overruled and told what they would be doing but it was so extremely rare that they listened because the rarity underlined that it was something crucial, not an ego trip. that We said this has to be because it really did have to be.
theyre both great people and now that theyre grown up, instead of the usual 'cant wait to escape home and my parents' control' type of thing, i think that we'll always be close. i hope that they'll always be comfortable turning to Us for help (as theyre not made subservient by asking), and that they'll actually want Us in their life unlike so many families where the kids get out at adulthood and try never to come back until theyre trapped into it for a holiday or something.
so far so good. We may have to pry them out of the house with a crowbar actually *L*
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(thankYou Owner. it was hard to keep my mouth shut on that one *smile**kiss*)
Okay... I was beginning to think I was the sole voice with this opinion, that parenting is not about dominance. It's about guidance.
To go one step further... if one feels one must dominate their children, does that mean one can only raise children to grow up as submissives? Or that a submissive can't raise children?
Looked at this way, one begins to see the fallacy in the original supposition.
No matter if you "look" at it as dominance or not, in a parent/child relationship there must be a leader. My daughter calls me "the boss." Ultimately, she is too young and inexperienced to simply make every decision in her life. My hope is that as she gets older I can continue to relinquish control. Yes control. I control her diet, exercise, education, entertainment, etc. She is 3 years old and cannot make these decisions for herself right now. If left up to her, she would eat goldfish crackers and m&ms all day long while watching anything on television. I bet she'd even run with scissors!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
It is utter nonsense to say that as parents we do not have some authority over our children when they are young. That would be completely irresponsible. As parents, we should set limits in order to teach our children. This does not make them submissive. We are simply trying to help them learn how to make good choices for themselves.
If I did not love my child, I would sit back and "watch" her grow. Thankfully, I do love her and am using all of my resources to guide her to adulthood. To say that all this effort will mean she and I will not disagree on occasion is folly. That's part of the learning process. She will test her boundaries, and I will adjust if it is in her best interest.
thinking about it, in an over veiw i guess its rather having one way for all the family, regardless of age: we are all human with seasons of vaulnerability, so those who know best protect and guide those who do not and there is no conflict, lessening, force, or shame in accepting it. its what family is here for.
so the children listen to the adults while they grow up and learn and the adults listen to the grown up children when We get too old and senile to think for ourselves anymore.. and neither is humbled for doing so.
I still think there is a similarity between the two.
People do what they have to do in a given situation. Yes I am a submissive... but if I were to ever have children I know I would have to step up to the plate so to speak and be everything my child would need... including in some situations to speak my dominance over them.. to put my foot down.
After all what is a dominant? Someone who guides... cherishes... loves.. protects... listens... helps... and so much more
What is a parent? ..... see the above ^^^
Strip the sex from the D/s aspect and I think it can be very comparible. Just as you have hardcore D/s situations and less extreme ends of a D/s relationship ... you have that as well in a parent/child situation. Some parents are more of the free spirited here are some choices pick one and I hope you do what is "right"... others set clear guidlines of what is expected of the child.
For me I guess... I don't see a clear distinction between the two...
Thank you wings... I couldn't have said it better. And yes, that is what is a parent is... just as what a Dom is. And just as a dom has to punish at times so do I as a parent... that is the only way to help the growth process. And I am a firm believer in the "natural consequences" theory problem is some "natural consequences" happen so far down the road, and when a child is past the point of being a decent person that I do and will create and enforce those types of consequences now, while they are still young enough to learn from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsofanangel
:264: Parenting 101: Just AnnieQuote:
Originally Posted by just_annie
If only all parents would subscribe to this philosophy!!! You are offering your children a safe environment to make mistakes. An environment that won't be so kind for them as adults. I applaud you and others that follow this approach!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabelle90
I agree with all of that Isabelle. That's a parent-child relationship. It is NOT a dom-sub relationship.
I am a submissive and yet I am in a somewhat dominant role as a parent. However I don't think that you can compare a D/S relationship with a parent child relationship.
So you do get it! :) No offence but you had me worried for a while. What say we all meet up in, say, 25 years time and compare notes. Because, let's face it, on this one, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabelle90
Better still, let's make that a date for 40 years hence for, by then, the power-boot will be on the other foot for most if not all of us — our children having the power to rule our lives and tell us what to do.
God I love Nature. She is the most elegant Domme that I know!
And, returning to the original post that started this whole thred, may I say that you are also right, indigo. There is no D/s dynamic to parenting beyond the thread of human nature that permeates all human interactions.
Any who think otherwise and see significant similarity between that which passes between consenting adults and that which passes between adult and child, need to unplug and get out more!
That or they need to go buy body armour, lest they be mistaken for would-be child molesters and abusers of innocents. Not that that would save them if they are of that sort. Where I come from, that's why we have lamp=posts, razor-wire and a river for garbage disposal.!
Agent provocateur sent into the community to manufacture evidence of wrong-doing, incidentally, get treated even more harshly.
There is nothing about molestation or abusing of children that is being considered. I am fairly certain that 99.99999% of us agree that both of those are WRONG in general but especially when dealing with children. As someone clearly stated, the thought behind their post was completely removing any sexual aspect what so ever. That seemed to be a clearly unspoken fact in the conversation up until the clarifying post, at least in my thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomStraye
What is being said, at least from my understanding and view point, is that raising a child is like a D/s relationship in the underlying values and the roles that some have to take on. As Wings pointed out... a Dom wants what is best for the sub, loves, nurtures, cares for, helps to grow, helps to guide, etc. That is what a parent does as well is it not? Do we not help our children learn. Yes, it may be through their own mistakes, but how many subs here have "learned" through their own mistakes, etc.
I agree the dynamic, based on the nature of the relationship alone is different. Hell, in my household the nature of the relationship is different per child, just as it is in most. And yes, the control will shift throughout the child's growth and development, but doesn't it also shift in a D/s relationship as the sub grows? The shift may not be in the same fashion but it is still there in both relationships.
I don't think anyone is saying children are subs. The thought is that, just as a Dominate has to have a certain amount of control to help the sub so does the parent and both relationships work on the same basic function. That is the way it is though for anyone who lives in this world. Be it with children/parents, bosses/employees, teachers/students, dominates/subs.... there is ALWAYS a leader and there is ALWAYS a follower... with the hope that some day the follower grows past needing the leadership (or that certain type of leadership) and in many cases hopefully surpasses the leader.
And on a side note... I do "unplug" and am very active in my children's lives. (Just ask Delia she listens about the latest happenings often enough...lol) But to be active also means that I have to take a Dominate role in many of the things we do, etc. or they wouldn't get to experience as much as they do and more importantly they wouldn't get to experience it in a safe environment. So, just because someone has a different view point doesn't mean that negative generalization of an entire thought process are necessary.
Does a Dom not provide guidance as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I have no doubt that 2 of my 3 children will grow up to be dominates... although I am a sub but dominate in the home. How do I know this? Because, just as you are a natural dominate, so are they. That is what their personalities lead them to be. Just a matter of my guiding them differently to get the same result. My being able to stand back a bit further as they choose their paths. The child that displays more sub tendencies, needs more structure, more feedback, etc. to feel safe and secure. So, just as any good dominate would do, I adjust my parenting per child. They all have the same over all expectations but each will take their own path to meet those expectations.Quote:
To go one step further... if one feels one must dominate their children, does that mean one can only raise children to grow up as submissives? Or that a submissive can't raise children?
Guess that is entirely a matter of perspective and how each chooses to define the words in use.Quote:
Looked at this way, one begins to see the fallacy in the original supposition.
True, we're talking semantics... mostly... but...
Subs have a choice in the matter. Children don't. Ignore all else and that alone disqualifies it as dom-sub... obviously that's my opinion but it's a strong one I maintain.
You can even go back to the days of true chattel slavery, especially slavery in ancient times, and the manner (as observed from writings and 'histories' of those eras,) and the manner in which children are treated v. slaves, even the manner in which children are taught to interact with adults v. slaves, belies, again my opinion, this notion that there is anything more than a superficial similarity between dom-sub and parent-child.
And I will reiterate, that parents who think of this as any kind of social pecking order rather than a parent-child relationship will ultimately fail their children when they begin to need to rely on themselves... AND have a place to fall back on when they make mistakes.
"My way or the highway" parents all too often create offspring with passive-agressive behavior or "lose" there children as they enter their teens, sometimes to the real highway, and often to the mental highway.
What we are talking about is individuality here, our individuality our choices will be a huge impact (fortunately AND unfortunately) on the lives of our children. I think the wisest words I've heard are "be there" it's was spiritual inspiration sent to me 19 years ago when my first son was born. Be there. None of us will be perfect parents, we all get to find our way through this maze of guiding another spirit that does not "belong" to us and different tools will be required at different ages. “Be there” has been my mantra with the boys’, be the scout leader, be the little league coach, be the soccer coach, go to the play recitals, orchestra concerts what ever watch them grow. This above all things tells them I matter, my choices matter, who I am matters.
Along with being there are boundaries, I believe this is critical to child development at any age. These boundaries need to be consistent and understandable, not necessarily always agreed upon. It is within reasonable boundaries that children feel safe. Another way children feel safe is in knowing that there is an alpha in the home, guiding and protecting them, if that makes me “DOM” so be it.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I beg to differ.
Ask around. I bet many subs will agree with me.
Who in the world would choose to be different? Choose to be something so taboo? I know I didn't choose it. Of course to an extent we make a choice... But really I am a slave to my own desires.. how can I say no? There are some who choose to be submissive.. but I think its comparible to someone who is gay. How many actually choose? Most say thats how they are born.
I feel I was BORN a submissive.. therefor having no choice... and my life shaped me into being a more submissive person... my seeds were planted (when I was born) ... my life experiences watered. I bloomed.
Would I want to be anything other than what I am? No.
But my point is... who is to say there is a choice. I feel like if I went against my natural inclination of being a submissive that I would be going against myself in so many ways.. what a struggle! What a hassle... and how unhappy would I be.
So YES.. While I have the choice of who will Dom me.... I do not have a choice to what is inside of me. I am who I am. I am a submissive female.
My rant is going off topic a bit but I did want to state that loud and clear.
Anywhoo..
I feel that some of the posts here are becoming a little.. flamey... and I did take offense to one post. If that continues I will not post again in this thread.
It is one thing to post how you feel.. it is completley different to say that if someone does not believe as you do then they would be viewed a sick.. or twisted.. or whatever the heck I stoped reading because I was offended.
HELLO we're on a BDSM forum.. uhm... I don't think this topic in general is whats going to get anyone looked at as sick.. and twisted... and make parents keep their kids away from BDSM-sers....
I still think there is a corolation between the two. There are differences.. but there are very much similarites. And believing so doesn't make one perverted in a sick sense... or a pedophile... or anything like that.
Alrighty... I would like everyone to just cool their heels abit... We all have different parenting or social views.. And that is a great thing, but lets us all take a moment and breath here...
Actually a great thead I think. Throw kids into the mix and you are going to get passion! LOL great stuff thanks all for sharing and caring. Keep up the parent struggle...it is the way of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReqSpec
OK.......what i think you are asking is........what happens when the children grow up.....and have lives of there own. Are the "children" still subject to the "parents" will.
A tricky question........
I am assuming that you are talking about parents living in the same house as the adult children......so i will answer along these lines......Adult parents........living with their adult children...
Yes.....i do believe this to be a very large unspoken problem.........and very guilt ridden one as well. The question of extended families. If you grow up and are Dominate yourself the question becomes even more complicated.
The question becomes...As a dominate adult ( or submissive one for that matter) are we still subject to our parents will?
In my opinion the answer is NO..........If my parents are living with me (and then again even if they are not).....and in essence in some way under MY control......then there is no choice......the parents should now be in the submissive role. The parents may state their opinion........but it is MY home and I should have the final decision.....not the parents.
The children are not necessarily "submissive" nor are the "parents" necessarily "Dominate".. As an adult child you are no longer required to obey.......As the parent, they need to understand that their children are no longer wearing the collar of childhood.
As the adult child........you should listen to what you parents have to say but not necessarily .....jump through the hoop.. As the parent they may mentor, but not expect unconditional obedience.
That's the choice to which I was referring.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsofanangel
If we are discussing older adult children now... as in 16.. 17... as it was just brought up.
then these days they have a choice as well... just a side point.
I think that making parenting a D/s thing suffers from moderate flaw: it assumes that a D/s relationship is always benevolent guidance. Sometimes a D/s dynamic in a relationship really doesn't change the person on the submissive side of the equation, and/or the roots of the behaviour are recreational cruelty, because the Dom and sub have agreed that while they are both good people, sometimes the petty and the humiliating are fun.
What I do to my boyfriend when it's my turn to Domme is -nothing- what I'd do while babysitting. No safe words, for one thing, and I don't believe in hitting children. You may, if dealing with a cranky child, restrain them via the firm hug check method and hold them down to put them into snowsuits, or condemn them to corners or rooms, but the other inherent difference between sexual domination and child care (asides from the obvious fact that only the former is a turn on) is that a D/s relationship is supposed to be taking place between two consenting adults, at least one of whom likes to submit, where as children are only submissive to the whims of the parent out of necessity, and only the parent has real right of consent.