Waterboarding

Should "Waterboarding" by the United State Military Be Outlawed And Made Illegal??

This is WaterboWaterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[2] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[3] Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]

forgive my ignorance, but what is "Waterboarding" and why does it matter?

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Originally Posted by DOMLORD

forgive my ignorance, but what is "Waterboarding" and why does it matter?

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Sorry i need to explain it here it is:
The Military wants to and has used it to interogate People and President Bush said any bill(which is now pendng in Congress) that makes Waterboarding illegal he will veto


Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[2] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[3] Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]

Waterboarding was used for interrogation at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition[6] to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. It is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][7] politicians, war veterans,[8][9] intelligence officials,[10] military judges,[11] and human rights organizations.[12][13] In 2007 waterboarding led to a political scandal in the United States when the press reported that the CIA had waterboarded extrajudicial prisoners[14] and that the Justice Department had authorized this procedure.[15] The CIA has admitted waterboarding Al-Qaida suspects Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.[16]

Well, call me a cynic, but I not convinced that outlawing it will actually stop it happening.

Look at the Lindi English case, an isolated incident? I think not.

I feel that the Military often brings out the very best and the very worst in people.

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Originally Posted by Alex Bragi

Well, call me a cynic, but I not convinced that outlawing it will actually stop it happening.

Look at the Lindi English case, an isolated incident? I think not.

I feel that the Military often brings out the very best and the very worst in people.

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I realize that, it will still be used but should it be outlawed??
would you support a law outlawing it's use??

hmm... i can see where the use might be atractive (especially for Water Bondage).
however most info elicited in this fassion is false. thats why most interogation techniques (lawful ones) always disorient the interogatee instead of harming them.
still i couldn't support it being outlawed because we can always threaten its use and fear is the most important weapon in an interogator's arsenal.

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Originally Posted by DOMLORD

hmm... i can see where the use might be atractive (especially for Water Bondage)..

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I have read some accounts elsewhere of others using this type of water torture in BDSM play. I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone who wasn't terribly experienced in edge play. Basically the end result is the reciprocating person puking. It doesn't sound too appealing to me.

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Originally Posted by DOMLORD

however most info elicited in this fassion is false. thats why most interogation techniques (lawful ones) always disorient the interogatee instead of harming them.
still i couldn't support it being outlawed because we can always threaten its use and fear is the most important weapon in an interogator's arsenal.

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Waterboarding can lead to permanent damage, and death. Torture techniques are designed to prolong agony, and yes can eventually harm the person.
Personally I don't care either way about waterboarding, I would think that the CIA is doing damage control right now, since this waterboarding has leaked out into the public foray.
Heaven forbid the american government would use any form of torture intended to harm another. I am sure that there are other forms of torture that are used as well, they just haven't been leaked out.

For those that are unsure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS4sGYmzCuA

Waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Basically, the person under investigation is tied down, their body declined. A rag is forced into the person's mouth and water is poured onto their face.

In my opinion, America should do what is necessary to protect her soldiers. I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

personally )and i am the daughter of a former marine gunerery sgt who happened to be a vietnam pow and he would say the same if he was still with us) wtf the united states of america is not suposed to condon torture of any kind what so ever, in that being the laying of hands on another to deliberatly harm them, etc,, we are supposed to be the good guys,, the very fact that we are even considering the legal technicalities of weather or not torture is torture speaks volumes about what our culture is becoming and frankly its not looking to be a good transition, sure the job is harder without some kinds of info, but that doesnt mean we lower ourselves to using the enemeys tactics, torture is wrong period

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Originally Posted by countrystud

I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

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I suggest you try a little experiment. Lie down in your shower or tub, place a cloth over your face and allow the water to pour (or even spray) over the cloth, while you hold your hand behind your back. No turning the head away to breath, just let the water soak the cloth. I would bet that you don't last too long before you either turn your head away or pull the cloth away, just so you can get a breath.

Now imagine that you cannot turn away, and your hands (and everything else for that matter) are tied down, unusable. And then imagine that this goes on for hour after hour, day after day, your tormentors only allowing you enough air to keep you alive and conscious, but never enough to quell the burning, searing ache in your lungs.

Or, you can imagine sitting in a chair, probably secured, but not necessarily, being injected with a drug, then waking in your cell with no ill effects other than a mild headache, perhaps, but knowing that in all likelihood you've told your interrogators everything you knew.

Which would you prefer?

Torture, of any sort, is not only cruel and inhumane, it's virtually useless. Any information gotten from it cannot be trusted because the victims will usually say whatever they think you want to hear, just to make you stop, even if only for a short while. Drugs, psychology and even hypnosis are far more reliable and safe as an interrogation technique.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

I suggest you try a little experiment. Lie down in your shower or tub, place a cloth over your face and allow the water to pour (or even spray) over the cloth, while you hold your hand behind your back. No turning the head away to breath, just let the water soak the cloth. I would bet that you don't last too long before you either turn your head away or pull the cloth away, just so you can get a breath.

Now imagine that you cannot turn away, and your hands (and everything else for that matter) are tied down, unusable. And then imagine that this goes on for hour after hour, day after day, your tormentors only allowing you enough air to keep you alive and conscious, but never enough to quell the burning, searing ache in your lungs.

Or, you can imagine sitting in a chair, probably secured, but not necessarily, being injected with a drug, then waking in your cell with no ill effects other than a mild headache, perhaps, but knowing that in all likelihood you've told your interrogators everything you knew.

Which would you prefer?

Torture, of any sort, is not only cruel and inhumane, it's virtually useless. Any information gotten from it cannot be trusted because the victims will usually say whatever they think you want to hear, just to make you stop, even if only for a short while. Drugs, psychology and even hypnosis are far more reliable and safe as an interrogation technique.

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I agree with you 100%

Also, keep in mind who is allowing this to go on?? and interstingly enough when our current Attorney Genenral was being ask questions by congress before his confirmation, he even said "I will not pass judgment on whether Wateboarding is Torture or not, or if it should be allowed or not" keeping this in mind, remember who nominated him for Attorney General, with the current Adm. it seems that as long was what THEY do serves THEIR puporse, it makes no different what is legal, what is torture ect as long as THEY get the results THEY want also add into this the Bush is always talk about human rights,around the world like in in China and other countries, he believes in human rights and dignity yet he let's waterboarding go on, a bit hypocritical would you say he wants everyone to be treated in a humane fashion but allows Waterboarding

lol, well what do u expect from a leader thats never really fought in a war to defend his country before?,, i think its a primary character flaw to have any commander in chief that has no experience in the military, (i know many will disagree) but only those that have stood next to one another with thier lives on the line understand the sacrifices made,, as for the hypocrisy well thats common now days,, after bold face lies told by prior presidents caught red handed, whats a lil truth bending today?,, arrrgh politicians make me sick,, i mean hell, we might as well vote for the sexiest president right? after all arent we just going to get fucked by whoever it is regardless? lmao

so my new election of officals formula is: elect the one yu would like to fuck you the most,,,

only time will tell

First thought (I've not read the whole thread, so apologies to anyone who has already made this point): no-one should vote FOR it until they've tried it.

Second: It's done everywhere, but when it's discovered, it should be punished harshly. We are SUPPOSED to be the "good guys" as someone said. Then let us make sure that anyone letting down the standards we aspire to is made to pay.

Third: It makes no difference that "the enemy" would do it to us. It's still wrong.

Fourth: "It's justifable because it's the only way to get information that might save lives." No it isn't! The ends do not justify the means, especially when it is not always certain what the "ends" might turn out to be.

I could go on ...

But no-one can justify it except to say that it's better than doing something worse. Well, of course!

i so agree with you on this one MMI,,nice points too, i just think its a bad sign of the devalueing of our ethical compass that we obviously engadge as a country in theses activities, smh,, wtf ever happened to the geniva convention? My dad never liked to talk about being tortured when he was a pow, but every so often an old buddy of his from the corps would drop by and i would hear them talking in thier gruff voices through the wall of our living room where i had snuck off too to spy on em, and some of it was just terrible, but the real eye opener, was going to spokane at Fairchild AFB with my Husband/Master and taking a tour of the resisitance training corse at the survival school annex where he used to teach, and phewie,, the things they said where done to american pow's by the vietmanese and koreans was incredible,, i mean heck the nazis treated pows better,, but anyway i digress, our determination to be a leader in world politics, which we kinda took on after WW2 may partlly out of nessesity absolutly requires that We Set the Example,, that we dont do certian things like torture ,just becuz the other guy did etc,, we used to set that example too, now days we have fallen woefully short.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

...i mean heck the nazis treated pows better

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Well, but you (the USA) treated pows better, too. Of course, the US had tortured certain axis prisoners during and even after WWII. But the normal soldiers didn't go to places like Guantanamo Bay. A father's friend narrated of the "Fritz-Ritz", the US-camps for German POW's. They even were free to celebrate the "Führergeburtstag" (Birthday of Hitler, 20th of April).

Folks, these terrorists want to kill us. Kill all of us. Now they are trying to bankrupt the U.S. by controlling the price of oil. Now I agree with denuseri about her assessment of our politicians. They're the one's that got us into this mess by not allowing drilling on our own land, the building of new refineries, and the use of nuclear energy. Both parties are to blame for that! But our National Security must be our first priority, at whatever means!!! Without our National Security, we wouldn't be able to say these things without the fear of retribution. We're still the best country and best government in the world, and we need to maintain that status.

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Originally Posted by Captain

Folks, these terrorists want to kill us. Kill all of us. Now they are trying to bankrupt the U.S. by controlling the price of oil. Now I agree with denuseri about her assessment of our politicians. They're the one's that got us into this mess by not allowing drilling on our own land, the building of new refineries, and the use of nuclear energy. Both parties are to blame for that! But our National Security must be our first priority, at whatever means!!! Without our National Security, we wouldn't be able to say these things without the fear of retribution. We're still the best country and best government in the world, and we need to maintain that status.

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We can do that without Torturing Prisoners
If the Major Oil corporation can post $35 BILLION in Profits for 1 quarter and pay their CEO's $12-14 Million a years, they can bulid more refineries, they have their own land build them there, or upgrade the ones that they have and expand there capablities,
Any major Cororation that shows a $35 Billoin Profit for 3-4 months Pays their CEO's Over $10 Milloin a year while we pay $4.00+ for gas, i have no sympathy for the oil companies, they have the money to do what is needed, they simply won't build more, expand more refineries, that would at least be astart

too true, plus allmost half that price of the gallon is infact generated by state and federal taxes, heck our county just raised a tax for gas to help pay for a public transportation system that is only used by a small portion of people in our inner city,, wtf am i paying extra for, i live like 20miles out,lol,, as for torture i am asstonished that any red blooded american would even consider it,,let alone condone it, like rome we americans have many jealous of our prosperity, its not a question of those who would be our enemies intentions, like the Japanese admiral suposably said just after pearl harbor "i fear we have awakened a sleeping giant" the bad guys should watch the f out,, but that doesnt mean we have to compromise the ethical standard that made our nation great to begin with by playing down to our opositions level

double posted dammit

double posted dammit

Water boarding, especially with the previous examples described here in this thread, SOUNDS QUITE EFFECTIVE!

Hate me if you will. But these people hate you more, and have for hundreds of years. They declared war on us hundreds of years ago, and we still haven't woken up to realize it and face it. They will kill themselves to kill you, your families, your children. So what is a little torture? We're not killing them or their families, right? Their women, their children, and their men are trained to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up, in our airplanes, in our football stadiums, in our high school graduations--whatever event that might have a solid impact on the fear of our nation (Is this not torture?). Why? Because they hate us. Period. They hated us long before we needed their oil, in fact, before we even knew what oil might be used for. So please don't even try to make that point. (And, Yes, I hate Bush too!!!)

Imagine that while you are at work tomorrow, an airplane flies into the side of the building that you work in, or that your wife works in, or where your daughter is in daycare, and you (or your loved one) and 3,000 other poor souls are dead by the afternoon. Imagine that you are the child of one of those poor dead souls and you have to live with this for the rest of your life. Imagine that you are one who doesn't know if their loved one made it through the horrors that have taken place, walking the streets, looking at bulletin boards to see if you still have the possibility of a life with your Master/slave, submissive/Dom(me), husband/wife, children, whatever-it's all fucking over anyway. Imagine being the ones who watched as their family members' hands, cell phones still in grasp, were found in the rubble at ground zero, NYC, USA. Right here, under the flag, where the torture of a nation began. And imagine that you could have prevented it all with a water hose and some fucking rope, with a technique that is not deadly, but very frightening (sounds a bit like BDSM now, doesn't it?).

Now, imagine that you didn't get that hose out because other people might think it's too cruel. Could you live with your action...or lack thereof?

Imagine that you are in an airplane (Flight 93 Maybe?) and you know that you are headed for the side of a building. Imagine that you had the choice of water boarding the fucker with the plan in mind and you chose not to because you had a little moral dilema with the whole issue. Imagine that you could have prevented the whole situation for all of the American families involved, but you chose to do the "right thing" and now you have to live with your weak-assed, humanity lovin', PC (politically correct) decision for the rest of your life. I say, "Let's Roll!"

Imagine that Timothy McVeigh had been water boarded during interrogation prior to the incidents at OKC. (The attack that claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured). How might that have changed history?

Imagine that you knew that your next door neighbor intended to mutilate, rape, and destroy your family simply because of his extremist religious beliefs, and you had no defense against it. Would you water board (regardless of the congressional definition of torture) the mother-fucker to prevent it from happening, or would that be taking it easy on the poor defenseless son-of-a bitch?

I say water board on! If it saves my family, my neighbors, my neighborhood, my city...water board on! Make it an extreme sport. Sign me up--I own a waterhose and everything! Put it on a reality TV show--Like snowboarding, rock climbing, or tornado chasing, or whatever. I'd watch it. It would be better entertainment than "Fear Factor" or "Survivor!"

Bear in mind that we do not send video tapes of torture to the families of the poor slobs after the water boarding, like our families have the privilege to watch the torture and beheadings of our loved ones on CNN (Chicken Noodle News), or youtube (where you can watch the beheading of Saddam).

You're damn right we're better than them! And you're damn right we're the good guys.

Moderators and fellow forum members: My intent is not to "flame". Please note that I am not directing my opinions towards any of the previous posts. But, I feel VERY strongly about this one, and I am only expressing my freedom of speech, as an American, that is guaranteed through such tactics as water boarding or whatever!

Obviously, I am speaking to the BDSM community, where we have limits, rules, and consent--that we all agree upon. Of course, water boarding would be way outside of what we might agree to (depending on how far you take it). So, if water boarding is too much, bring these fuckers to my house, and I will whip their fucking asses into confession and submission. BUT, SOMEONE ELSE would think that this would be too "cruel and unusual" as well.

I say, whatever it takes to protect my family, my freedom, and my life is acceptable by me, and I support the honorable efforts of the soldiers that are risking their lives to ensure our American freedoms. Fuck the PC movement!

Sincerely,

Christopher L. ____________
SPC, U.S. Army Veteran, 1st Infantry Division
(time served dammit!)

lol I didn't want to make this my first post but after reading this thread I feel I have to.

America without American values is no longer America, better to die standing for something then to live for nothing.

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Originally Posted by countrystud

Waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Basically, the person under investigation is tied down, their body declined. A rag is forced into the person's mouth and water is poured onto their face.

In my opinion, America should do what is necessary to protect her soldiers. I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

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So it would be perfectly acceptable for an al queda "freedom fighter" to torture an GI to get info on the next napalm strike on Theran?

Reading all this a question comes to my mind: What if the CIA or who'ever is in charge got the wrong guy?

If one is running around, ready to bomb away a kindergarten and has deposit his package somewhere, well - shit on his rights and make him talk!
But hundreds or even thousands of innocent people has been abducted and interrogated. Known to be innocent because after some month(!) the US has declared them innocent and set them free. I don't think they let terrorists go...

"Beware while fighting monsters unles you become one too."

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Originally Posted by Venom

Reading all this a question comes to my mind: What if the CIA or who'ever is in charge got the wrong guy?

If one is running around, ready to bomb away a kindergarten and has deposit his package somewhere, well - shit on his rights and make him talk!
But hundreds or even thousands of innocent people has been abducted and interrogated. Known to be innocent because after some month(!) the US has declared them innocent and set them free. I don't think they let terrorists go...

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True but as I understand it they are saying ALL peole in US custody are intitled to certain human rights, that does not mean I agree with it, but they are bound by the Geneva Convnetion regadless of if they are Terrorits or not
And there hav been claim and harges that those at Gitmo are protected by the Gevena Convnetion, Not sayingthis is right or wron,g only what has been said plus because others Torture people does not mean it is ok for the United States to do so, and if they do, who knows if any info they get is even credable?? most people who face this will say what ever they need to to end the treatment be what they say is valid or not
Like someone being abused by their local police, they may confess, but did they confess because they were gulity or because they wanted the abuse to end

look over the last few years how many gulity people have been freed because thier "forced" confessions were determined to have been given under duress a forced confesion is torutre to some extent

Sorry, Mr.FixIt. I have to disagree with many of your statements.

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Hate me if you will. But these people hate you more, and have for hundreds of years. They declared war on us hundreds of years ago, and we still haven't woken up to realize it and face it. They will kill themselves to kill you, your families, your children. So what is a little torture? We're not killing them or their families, right? Their women, their children, and their men are trained to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up, in our airplanes, in our football stadiums, in our high school graduations--whatever event that might have a solid impact on the fear of our nation (Is this not torture?). Why? Because they hate us. Period.

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You paint with a broad brush here. The vast majority of "these people" are simple, peace-loving, hard working human beings who deplore much of the atrocities which are being committed in their names. It's only a handful of Muslim extremists who are trying to terrorize the rest of the world simply because their beliefs are in the minority. And let's not forget, it's us (Christians) who started this mess by launching the Crusades.

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Now, imagine that you didn't get that hose out because other people might think it's too cruel. Could you live with your action...or lack thereof?

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So, we should torture anyone we even think might be a threat, based only upon their religion, or the color of their skin, or perhaps the color of their hair, or eyes? Or maybe anyone who doesn't speak English? That's absurd! Do you really think that kidnapping some poor farmer from his fields, transporting him thousands of miles from his home, then torturing him for hours and hours is going to get you information? The guy doesn't know anything! He's just a farmer! But you would go right on torturing him until you've either killed him or turned him into a vegetable, just because you THINK he might know something? That's nuts!

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Imagine that you are in an airplane (Flight 93 Maybe?) and you know that you are headed for the side of a building. Imagine that you had the choice of water boarding the fucker with the plan in mind and you chose not to because you had a little moral dilema with the whole issue. Imagine that you could have prevented the whole situation for all of the American families involved, but you chose to do the "right thing" and now you have to live with your weak-assed, humanity lovin', PC (politically correct) decision for the rest of your life. I say, "Let's Roll!"

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This is a completely different story. Here you are not looking for shadows under the bed, you have a tangible threat right in front of you. Yet you would rather torture some guy while his cronies fly the plane into the building? Fuck that! "Let's Roll" indeed! Charge the cockpit, try to regain control of the plane, just as those heroes on Flight 93 did. With luck, you capture and/or kill the terrorists and regain the plane. At worst, as really happened, the terrorists fly the plane into the ground, preventing even worse loss of life. But torturing a guy to get the plan while the plane is diving on the building isn't going to accomplish anything.

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Imagine that Timothy McVeigh had been water boarded during interrogation prior to the incidents at OKC. (The attack that claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured). How might that have changed history?

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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but was McVeigh suspected of being a home-grown terrorist prior to his actions? I don't believe so. So you're saying we should have tortured him anyway, just in case? That would justify our government being able to pick anyone up off the streets, including your wife, or your daughter, and allow them to torture them just in case they were planning a terrorist attack. Which brings us to:

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Imagine that you knew that your next door neighbor intended to mutilate, rape, and destroy your family simply because of his extremist religious beliefs, and you had no defense against it. Would you water board (regardless of the congressional definition of torture) the mother-fucker to prevent it from happening, or would that be taking it easy on the poor defenseless son-of-a bitch?

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What proof do you have that he's planning on doing this? Has he threatened you? Or them? Has he been recruiting people to help him attack your home? Has he done anything other than spout what you consider to be "extremist religious beliefs"? If so, then you have a right to defend your family. So kill the bastard! Or turn him over to the police. What's the point in torturing him if you already know what he's going to do? Or perhaps you only suspect he's planning this? Then the obvious course of action is to torture his wife and his children to learn what he's planning. They may not know anything, but what the hell! You're protecting your family!

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Bear in mind that we do not send video tapes of torture to the families of the poor slobs after the water boarding, like our families have the privilege to watch the torture and beheadings of our loved ones on CNN (Chicken Noodle News), or youtube (where you can watch the beheading of Saddam).
You're damn right we're better than them! And you're damn right we're the good guys.

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How does emulating our enemies make us better than them? You say that we don't show tapes of the torture and murder of our victims, yet you advocate doing just that! That doesn't make you one of the "good guys", that makes you one of them!

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I say, whatever it takes to protect my family, my freedom, and my life is acceptable by me, and I support the honorable efforts of the soldiers that are risking their lives to ensure our American freedoms. Fuck the PC movement!

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I, too support the honorable efforts of the soldiers. I especially support those honorable men and women who are leaking information about the atrocities committed at Guantanamo Bay, in my name, by a government which is getting out of control. I can love my country without loving the people who are leading it. I have always honored those soldiers who have sacrificed so much in the defense of freedom. Even during the Viet Nam era, when it was "fashionable" to harangue and insult soldiers returning from war, I supported them and praised them for the work they did.
I do not support, will never support, those political and business leaders who allow such atrocities to happen, who send those young men and women out to fight a war to insure their profits, who permit and encourage illegal and immoral acts in the name of National Security.
And as for religious extremists, I am far more concerned with the actions of the Christian Right Wing fanatics right here in the US than I am with some poor Muslim store clerk in Baghdad.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

How does emulating our enemies make us better than them? You say that we don't show tapes of the torture and murder of our victims, yet you advocate doing just that! That doesn't make you one of the "good guys", that makes you one of them!

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I think you misunderstood this one.....no one is advocating sending tapes out to families...the point to this was to say that when they torture our soldiers, their families must live through that torture as well, because tapes are sent out to them, and it's posted on the web. We don't do that. And think about what is on THOSE tapes....electrocution, cutting, amputation, beatings, hammers used to smash limbs, torches used to burn the flesh. They are not just torturing one person, they are torturing the person's entire family. We're not talking about the store clerk here. We're talking about extremists.


i KNOW how these people feel about us-even Mr. Store Clerk, who flies out of the airport to his homeland, carrying thousands of dollars-enough that they must declare it, which means more than $10,000...it's going where our oil money is already going! Store Clerk looks at me across the counter, and solemnly berated the country where he has gained this mass amount of money(as well as the gold rings that he has on all of his fingers, his watch, and his wife's adornments), berated me for being an infadel, and cursed my children. All after i'd gone the extra mile to treat him with respect and serve his needs as my customer. Think he's an anomole? Wrong, i've got countless stories of the same nature from the year and a half that i worked at the airport.
EVERY one of them has treated me like i'm a piece of shit--in MY country, on MY terf, paying with MY country's currency that they saved up with the help of MY government-no taxes due for 5 years because they opened a business here. i saw one man once a week, carrying at least 10 grand in his wallet-wonder how much was in his suitcase? But he's just taking ALL of that to care for his poor family back home.


Waterboarding is frightening. Sure. But we could do MUCH worse. If the schoolyard bully gets after you at school, and you tell on him, he's gonna beat you up...but if you knock him out, he'll leave you alone. These guys don't care if you knock them out, so long as you go down with them. Kind and gentle does no good. If it did, we would be doing that instead, since you can catch more flies with honey, and diplomacy goes a long way....except when they believe that you're the devil, and have since biblical times.

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Originally Posted by stripedangel

I think you misunderstood this one.....no one is advocating sending tapes out to families...the point to this was to say that when they torture our soldiers, their families must live through that torture as well, because tapes are sent out to them, and it's posted on the web. We don't do that. And think about what is on THOSE tapes....electrocution, cutting, amputation, beatings, hammers used to smash limbs, torches used to burn the flesh. They are not just torturing one person, they are torturing the person's entire family. We're not talking about the store clerk here. We're talking about extremists.

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Mr.FixIt said in his post, "Put it on a reality TV show--Like snowboarding, rock climbing, or tornado chasing, or whatever. I'd watch it. It would be better entertainment than "Fear Factor" or "Survivor!" While not the same as sending it to their families, how is it any different than posting it on the web?

As for your experiences with these people, I agree, that there is a serious problem here in this country with our immigration laws. We let these people send, or take the money away without penalty. Almost any other country in the world it would be against the law, resulting in long term imprisonment. That doesn't make them terrorists, any more than gay-bashers are terrorists, or anti-semites. They could be terrorists, but that has yet to be proven. Besides, when they are treated like shit just because they are Muslim, why should we expect them to treat us any better? What goes around, comes around.

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Waterboarding is frightening. Sure. But we could do MUCH worse.

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That would be like kicking a guy in the head to put him in a coma, then saying, "Hey, it's not that bad! I could have killed him!"
Either way, it's wrong. Especially since the majority of those people being tortured down in Cuba are not proven terrorists or sympathizers. Many of them are just ordinary people who happen to be Muslim.

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If the schoolyard bully gets after you at school, and you tell on him, he's gonna beat you up...but if you knock him out, he'll leave you alone. These guys don't care if you knock them out, so long as you go down with them. Kind and gentle does no good. If it did, we would be doing that instead, since you can catch more flies with honey, and diplomacy goes a long way....except when they believe that you're the devil, and have since biblical times.

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Again, that sounds all well and good, but make sure you take out the real bully, not some guy who lives in the same neighborhood. Part of the problem with dealing with terrorists as that its damned near impossible to take them out without a lot of collateral damage. It's not like being at war with a country and dropping bombs indiscriminately on the enemy cities. While they may not like us, might even hate us, most of the people in those cities hate the terrorists just as much, until we move in and start throwing our weight around, virtually forcing them to side with the terrorists.

Remember, now, I'm not saying we shouldn't interrogate the prisoners. All I'm saying is that torture has historically been shown to be the worst method for gathering intelligence. Especially in modern times, drugs and psychology can get you more reliable information, more quickly, and with less negative feedback than torture. Then, once you've gotten the information and proven that the subject was a member of a terrorist organization, go ahead and kill the bastard! Just do it humanely. Most of us wouldn't treat a rabid dog the way we treat these suspects.

And also remember, once we allow our government to virtually kidnap people off the streets and lock them away for interrogation with no evidence against them other than their race or color, we are opening the doors to having ourselves and our families treated the same way, for any reason some government agency might concoct, or for no reason at all. That way lies totalitarianism. And the end of the United States as we know them.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Sorry, Mr.FixIt. I have to disagree with many of your statements.

You paint with a broad brush here. The vast majority of "these people" are simple, peace-loving, hard working human beings who deplore much of the atrocities which are being committed in their names. It's only a handful of Muslim extremists who are trying to terrorize the rest of the world simply because their beliefs are in the minority. And let's not forget, it's us (Christians) who started this mess by launching the Crusades.

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It's the (handful of?) extremists that I'm referring to here. The handful that will proudly kill you, me, our families, etc. I do not believe that "peace loving, hard working human beings" are being water boarded. Let's focus on what and whom we are talking about here.

"Cursades?" What the hell do you call a gihad? I didn't start a gihad, I'm sure that you didn't start a gihad, did you? But let's not make this about religion. Please note that I didn't mention religion (or musims in particular) at any point in my response. Why would you assume that I was talking about muslims? I was talking about the same "handful (tens of thousands) of extremists" that you were talking about.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Again, that sounds all well and good, but make sure you take out the real bully, not some guy who lives in the same neighborhood. Part of the problem with dealing with terrorists as that its damned near impossible to take them out without a lot of collateral damage. It's not like being at war with a country and dropping bombs indiscriminately on the enemy cities. While they may not like us, might even hate us, most of the people in those cities hate the terrorists just as much, until we move in and start throwing our weight around, virtually forcing them to side with the terrorists.

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You're exactly right! That's why we're water boarding one fucker, and not bombing the whole town!

as convincing an argument proponents here on this site (of both sides of this issue) are making i think it shall perhaps not be resolved any time soon, our government seems to be just as deadlocked on the legality of it and or its effectivness, and its clearly a non-partisan debate, no one party wholehaertedly supports eaither side of the argument, sure the president is for it, but the man representing his party in the next election is adamantly against it, of course he (McCain) is a former pow, no wonder he dislikes the very idea of we americans commiting acts of torture

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Originally Posted by Mr.FixIt

It's the (handful of?) extremists that I'm referring to here. The handful that will proudly kill you, me, our families, etc. I do not believe that "peace loving, hard working human beings" are being water boarded. Let's focus on what and whom we are talking about here.

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It's easy to believe that innocent people aren't being tortured, but the fact is that the majority of those being held in Guantanamo Bay have not been proven to be terrorists. We would like to believe that they are there because they did something which makes us believe they are terrorists, but it's my belief that some of them are there simply because of their race or religion. That is unacceptable to me. I should be unacceptable to all of us. That's what our country was founded upon.

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"Cursades?" What the hell do you call a gihad? I didn't start a gihad, I'm sure that you didn't start a gihad, did you? But let's not make this about religion. Please note that I didn't mention religion (or musims in particular) at any point in my response. Why would you assume that I was talking about muslims? I was talking about the same "handful (tens of thousands) of extremists" that you were talking about.

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I used the Crusades to explain part of the reason why things are the way they are in the Middle East. And why going in there and blasting away indiscriminately will not solve the problem, only make things worse. And let's face, at this time the biggest terrorist threat to the world does seem to be Muslim fanatics. It has nothing to do with true religion, though, just happens to be a fact.

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You're exactly right! That's why we're water boarding one fucker, and not bombing the whole town!

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But that's my whole point! We've selected one person from the town and are torturing him to find out things he doesn't know, while the real threat is back home rousing the rest of the town against us for our inhumanity. And planning his next strike against us. All I'm trying to say is, make sure the guy you've arrested and are holding (illegally, by the way) is one of the bad guys, and not some innocent bystander.

God! Some of the stuff I've read here is mind boggling!

In no particular order:-

Waterboarding is not an acceptable interrogation technique: it's torture. And it can cause death. "Interrogation Technique"!!! I ask you .... Say what you bloody-well mean, don't tart it up with pretty words.

Could you compare flying a couple of planes into the WTC with the British/US carpet-bombing of Dresden, or the American bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The targets were the same: non-combatants. Yes, I know Britain and America were at war with Germany and Japan at the time of Hiroshima and Dresden. But they were both already defeated by then. If any pother countries had done that, we'd have called them war crimes.

Moslems hate us? No more than Christians and atheists in Russia and Africa do.

Arabs hate us? Well, those we have invaded for no valid reason might. Those who live in anticipation of unprovoked invasion fear us. But as a people, they are noble and do not hate us.

Jihads were a Moslem response to the Christian invasion of the Holy Land, not the other way round. Before the Crusades, Christians and Jews lived more or less peacefully with Arabs in Palestine. OK, some Christians were slaves, but slaves who could rise to high status within Ottoman society (cf St John of Damascus). The Crusades were wars against Islam, not against Arabs

As for America being the best country in the world, what's so great about xenophobia and paranoia? USA is a good country there's no denying that, but it's no better than many many other countries. France, Holland, Sweden, and Australia are all just as "good". Germany, Canada, Japan are just as "free". They are not as rich, that's all.

If USA wanted peace inthe Middle East, it would stop nurturing moslem totalitarian states like Saudi Arabia the one hand, and it would stop invading moslem totalitarian states like Iraq on the other. It would deal with them even handedly, and if it wished to influeence their political systems, it would do so peacefully. If, however, it wished to stop genocide within those countries, it wouldn't wait until oil prices rose too high ...

I'll stop here: if I say anything else, I'll be accused of flaming ...

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Originally Posted by MMI

Moslems hate us? No more than Christians and atheists in Russia and Africa do.

Arabs hate us? Well, those we have invaded for no valid reason might. Those who live in anticipation of unprovoked invasion fear us. But as a people, they are noble and do not hate us....

I'll stop here: if I say anything else, I'll be accused of flaming ...

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Well said, and I didn't sense any indicaiton of flaming here. Apparently you stopped at exactly the right point!

Please allow me to clarify my standpoint by reitterating myself. I don't believe that I ever claimed that Arabs, Muslims or otherwise hated us. But if I was unclear, I appologize. I intended to state my belief that the religious extremist terrorists hate us. I do appreciate the history lesson--it really was quite informative, and please don't think that I have any intentions of sarcasm. However, I had nothing to do with the crusades. My (ancient) ancestors started this one, and I refuse to pay for it.

I don't believe that we're grabbing up some poor inocent random fellow at his place of business, only to water board him for things that he has no involvement in. If we are, then the fuckers that are responsible should and will burn in hell for their irresponsible actions. If such attrocities are occuring, then I am certain that my descendants will pay for it like we are now paying for the actions of the crusaders.

But how else do you propose that we get information that might save our lives? Someone previously, here, proposed the use of drugs. I believe that what we're talking about is "Truth Serum". So, let's take a look at this "Truth Serum" that has been suggested as a more humane alternative to things such as water boarding.

From Wikipedia.com:
Barbiturates are a class of drugs that act on the GABAA receptor in the brain and spinal cord. The GABAA receptor is an inhibitory channel which decreases neuronal activity and the barbiturates enhance the inhibitory action of the GABAA receptor. Barbiturates, benzodiazepines, and alcohol all bind to the GABAA receptor, but the barbiturates bind with the highest affinity with longer receptor binding half-lives. This explains why overdoses of barbiturates may be lethal whereas overdoses of benzodiazepines alone are typically not lethal. Another explanation is that barbiturates can activate GABA receptors in the absence of the GABA molecule, whereas benzodiazepines need GABA to be present to have an effect: this may explain the more widespread effects of barbiturates in the central nervous system. Barbiturates have anesthetic, sedative, and hypnotic properties. Barbiturates do not have analgesic effects

Uses:

Anesthesia
Thiopental is an ultra-short-acting barbiturate and is most commonly used in the induction phase of general anesthesia. Following intravenous injection the drug rapidly reaches the brain and causes unconsciousness within 30–45 seconds. At one minute, the drug attains a peak concentration of about 60% of the total dose in the brain. Thereafter, the drug distributes to the rest of the body and in about 5–10 minutes the concentration is low enough in the brain such that consciousness returns.

A normal dose of thiopental (usually 4-6 mg/kg) given to a pregnant woman for operative delivery (caesarian section) rapidly makes her unconscious, but the baby in her uterus remains conscious. However, larger or repeated doses can depress the baby.

Thiopental is not used to maintain anesthesia in surgical procedures because, in infusion, it displays zero-order elimination kinetics, leading to a long period before consciousness is regained. Instead, anesthesia is usually maintained with an inhaled anesthetic (gas) agent. Inhaled anesthetics are eliminated relatively quickly, so that stopping the inhaled anesthetic will allow rapid return of consciousness. Thiopental would have to be given in large amounts to maintain an anesthetic plane, and because of its 11.5–26 hour half-life, consciousness would take a long time to return.

In veterinary medicine, thiopental is also used to induce anesthesia in animals. Since thiopental is redistributed to fat, certain breeds of dogs, primarily the sight hounds can have prolonged recoveries from thiopental due to their lack of body fat and lean body mass. Thiopental is always administered intravenously, as it can be fairly irritating; severe tissue necrosis and sloughing can occur if it is injected incorrectly into the tissue around a vein.

Medically induced coma
In addition to anesthesia induction, thiopental was historically used to induce medical comas. It has now been superseded by drugs such as propofol.

Thiopental has a long Context Sensitive Half Time (CSHT) meaning infusions saturate peripheral compartments (Fat, muscle etc). When the infusion is stopped, the drug re-distributes from the peripheral tissues back into the blood, prolonging the effect.

Thiopental also exhibits zero order kinetics at higher doses. The rate of clearance becomes fixed which slows elimination from the body.

Patients with brain swelling, causing elevation of the intracranial pressure, either secondary to trauma or following surgery may benefit from this drug. Thiopental, and the barbiturate class of drugs, decrease neuronal activity and therefore decrease the production of osmotically active metabolites which in turn decrease swelling. Patients with significant swelling have improved outcomes following the induction of coma. Reportedly, thiopental has been shown to be superior to pentobarbital[5] in reducing intracranial pressure.

Euthanasia
Thiopental is used intravenously for the purposes of euthanasia. The Belgians and the Dutch have created a protocol that recommends sodium thiopental as the ideal agent to induce coma followed by pancuronium bromide.

Intravenous administration is the most reliable and rapid way to accomplish euthanasia and therefore can be safely recommended. A coma is first induced by intravenous administration of 20 mg/kg thiopental sodium (Nesdonal) in a small volume (10 ml physiological saline). Then a triple intravenous dose of a non-depolarizing neuromuscular muscle relaxant is given, such as 20 mg pancuronium dibromide (Pavulon) or 20 mg vecuronium bromide (Norcuron). The muscle relaxant should preferably be given intravenously, in order to ensure optimal availability. Only for pancuronium dibromide (Pavulon) are there substantial indications that the agent may also be given intramuscularly in a dosage of 40 mg.

Lethal injection
Along with pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride, thiopental is used in 36 states of the U.S. to execute prisoners by lethal injection. A megadose is given which places the subject into a rapidly induced coma. Executions using the three drug combination are usually effective in approximately 10 minutes, but have been known to take several times this length. The use of thiopental alone is hypothesized to cause death in approximately 45 minutes.

Truth serum
Thiopental is still used in some places as a truth serum. The barbiturates as a class decrease higher cortical brain functioning. Psychiatrists hypothesize that because lying is more complex than telling the truth, suppression of the higher cortical functions may lead to the uncovering of the "truth". However, the reliability of confessions made under thiopental is dubious; the drug tends to make subjects chatty and cooperative with interrogators, but a practiced liar or someone who has a false story firmly established would still be quite able to lie while under the influence of the drug.


Psychiatry
Psychiatrists have used thiopental to desensitize patients with phobias, and to "facilitate the recall of painful repressed memories."One psychiatrist who worked with thiopental is Professor Jan Bastiaans, who used this procedure to help release trauma in victims of the Nazis.


Metabolism
As with all lipid soluble anaesthetic drugs, the short duration of action of STP is almost entirely due to its redistribution away from central circulation towards muscle and fat tissue. Once redistributed the free fraction in the blood is metabolised in the liver. Sodium thiopental is mainly metabolized to pentobarbital,[9] 5-ethyl-5-(1'-methyl-3'-hydroxybutyl)-2-thiobarbituric acid, and 5-ethyl-5-(1'-methyl-3'-carboxypropyl)-2-thiobarbituric acid.


Dosage
The usual dose range for induction of anesthesia using thiopentone is from 3 to 7 mg/kg; however, there are many factors that can alter this. Premedication with sedatives such as benzodiazepines or clonidine will reduce requirements, as do specific disease states and other patient factors.

Side effects
As with nearly all anesthetic drugs, thiopental causes cardiovascular and respiratory depression resulting in hypotension, apnea and airway obstruction. For these reasons, only suitably trained medical personnel should give thiopental in an environment suitably equipped to deal with these effects. Side effects include headache, emergence delirium, prolonged somnolence and nausea. Intravenous administration of sodium thiopental is followed instantly by an odor sensation, sometimes described as being similar to rotting onions. The hangover effects may last up to 36 hours.

Although molecules of thiopental contain one sulfur atom, it is not a sulfonamide, and does not show allergic reactions of sulfa/sulpha drugs.

Drug interaction
Co-administration of pentoxifylline and thiopental causes death by acute pulmonary oedema in rats. This pulmonary oedema was not mediated by cardiac failure or by pulmonary hypertension but was due to increased pulmonary vascular permeability.


History
Sodium thiopental was discovered in the early 1930s by Ernest H. Volwiler and Donalee L. Tabern, working for Abbott Laboratories. It was first used in human beings on March 8, 1934, by Dr. Ralph M. Waters in an investigation of its properties, which were short-term anesthesia and surprisingly little analgesia. Three months later, Dr. John S. Lundy started a clinical trial of thiopental at the Mayo Clinic at the request of Abbott.

It is famously associated with a number of anesthetic deaths in victims of the attack on Pearl Harbor. These deaths, relatively soon after its discovery, were due to excessive doses given to shocked trauma patients. Evidence has however become available through freedom of information legislation and has been reviewed in the "British Journal of Anaesthesia". Thiopentone anaesthesia was in its early days, but nevertheless only 13 of 344 wounded admitted to the Tripler Army Hospital did not survive.

Thiopental is still rarely used as a recreational drug, usually stolen from veterinarians or other legitimate users of the drug; however, more common sedatives such as benzodiazepines are usually preferred as recreational drugs, and abuse of thiopental tends to be uncommon and opportunistic.

Sounds like perfectly humane stuff, right? How many injections should I give my child when I think he's lying to me? Or would that not be appropriate?! Of course, water boarding my child would not be appropriate either, but to suggest that water boarding is wrong and drugging is better is simply incorrect. But if you want to feel better about yourself, just forget about the whole thing...Forget that we started this hundreds of years ago, Forget that they hate us, Forget that they flew planes into our buildings and killed thousands of us, Forget that they will do it all over again--given the opportunity. Just forget about it all while you drive your brand new SUV that gets 18 GSM (gas stations per mile), because we're the best country in the world! Right?! And that kind of thinking will lead us to the next wake up call that won't wake us up either.

If water boarding is wrong, then certainly drugs are wrong too! So, now what action should we take that is politacally correct, favorable to all, that does not cause controversy for you while you tank up for a cruise in your SUV? Tickle torture maybe? I know, let's make them watch America's Funniest Home Videos, or America's Funniest Pets till they fucking puke!!! Actually, I really like this concept!!!!!!!!

And to further clarify myself--

I am not proposing that we should video tape or publicly broadcast our torture (self preservation) tactics--that was sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by MMI

Moslems hate us? No more than Christians and atheists in Russia and Africa do.

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Yeah, but i haven't heard of either of those countries using our planes as missiles...and why did Russia back down? Because of a deterrent called nukes.

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Originally Posted by MMI

As for America being the best country in the world, what's so great about xenophobia and paranoia?

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No one is fearful of strangers, it's the ones who come here illegally, and deplete our welfare systems, and use our tax dollars to defend themselves in court when they break the law....and use our own technology to learn our ways, use our own belongings to kill nearly 4,000 people in one shot. As for paranoia-sheeesh, man, the whole world is paranoid to one extent or another. Everyone has hightened security now....wonder why? It's not like the USA is the only country that's been hit. They're going after those who are not our allies as well.

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Originally Posted by MMI

If USA wanted peace in the Middle East, it would stop nurturing moslem totalitarian states like Saudi Arabia the one hand, and it would stop invading moslem totalitarian states like Iraq on the other. It would deal with them even handedly, and if it wished to influence their political systems, it would do so peacefully. If, however, it wished to stop genocide within those countries, it wouldn't wait until oil prices rose too high ...

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Absolutely, cuz you can do that-treat them all the same, because they all behave the same, right?

Waterboarding is still far less serious than the tactics that the extremists are using against our soldiers. But how about the hostages that they take who are nonmilitary--like Christians who are there on missioanry status, with permission of their country's government? They torture them as well, and broadcast it for all to see...because of who they are- and they're not all from America.

There is no kind way of doing this. There is not a great solution. i hate that these issues must be debated-whether or not to torture someone. But if you want to run with the big dogs, you have to, at least, be able to keep up with them. You can't just expect everyone to be good lil girls and boys, and if you dealt with them with a soft hand, what deterrent is there?

"oh, yeah, the people at the USA facility were really nice, they got me high and asked me some questions...i lied and the idiots believed me and then they let me go."

Since drugs are unreliable, and waterboarding is out, what? What do we do? Just sit back and wait for them to attack us again? Then, who do we go after? Well, we kinda have to find that out through interrogation and investigation.

How about the tens of thousands of boys who are signed up for the extremist training facilities? They are taught to hate us-it's becomming a tradition. They are fed and clothed and given guns-when you're desolate, those camps make a mighty nice alternative, don't you think? Peaceable folks, tho.

AND did you ever think about the fact that we usually only get one side of the story-the media there wants everyone to think that we are just big bullies. The media here hates Bush and will do whatever it takes to slam him (not that i think he's a great leader-he's a COD). No one ever watches the 700 club, i take it...maybe you should check out their news segment for about a week-you'll get the rest of the story.

As for the jackasses who had such a great time humiliating and abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib....i don't even know what to say about this, except that they should be publically horsewhipped for that crap.

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Well said, and I didn't sense any indicaiton of flaming here. Apparently you stopped at exactly the right point!

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I did, didn't I? <deep breath ... count to 10>

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Please allow me to clarify my standpoint ... I don't believe that I ever claimed that Arabs, Muslims or otherwise hated us. But if I was unclear, I appologize.

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You were perfectly clear. You referred specifically to acts perpetrated by Al Qaeida, a group commonly understood to be moslem terrorists, and I do not believe you did that unaware of the west's - particularly USA's - dread of militant Islamic fundamentalists. Don't insult our intelligence by pretending otherwise.

But you DID mention gihads (sic) in a later post. A specifically moslem religious duty. And quickly withdrew from wanting to talk about religion. Forgive me if I think you were being disingenuous there.

(You did also refer to McVeigh, who wasn't a religious terrorist, but you did so separately.)

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I don't believe that we're grabbing up some poor inocent random fellow at his place of business, only to water board him for things that he has no involvement in. If we are, then the fuckers that are responsible should and will burn in hell for their irresponsible actions.

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To meet this criterion, you must try the wretch lawfully and establish his guilt before you can waterboard him. Nevetheless, I agree with your sentiment. After all, we're the good guys, aren't we, and we have standards to maintain.

Oh! Does that include the Americans in who rounded up the hundreds of poor farmers, tourists, students and non-combatants in Iraq and Afghanistan on suspicion of being terrorists ... no not even that; just because they were in the wrong place ... and deported them to a concentration camp outside the reach of US law or any other, kept them there - in cages - without charge or right of hearing (let alone appeal) for years and years and years. Who were frequently subjected to "disorientation Techniques" (another euphemism). Who, because they couldn't decide if they were prisoners of war (entitled to be treated with proper respect as captured soldiers and to be released as soon as the war was over), or criminals (entitled to know the charges against them, and to be able to put forward a defence to a properly constituted court without unreasonable delay). And who were then, for nothing more than political reasons, released without hearing, apology or compensation. If you were imprisoned for years without knowing why, and then let go without explanation, you'd expect an apology and compensation, wouldn't you?

Does it include the victims of "extreme rendition" - yet another euphemism for getting others to do our dirty work for us?

And what about the ones who ordered/condoned it?

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But how else do you propose that we get information that might save our lives?

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I don't know. Maybe we'll just have to take more care. But torture (waterboarding IS torture, and CAN kill, despite what you say) on any level in order to obtain information is totally unacceptable. What you are saying is, if you think there's a possibility that some American soldiers might face jeopardy, then it is legitimate to torture anyone just in case he knows whether that possibility is a reality. How many people are your prepared to torture before you get to the one who has that information? All of them? And how will you know? Information gained under torture is notoriously unreliable. People's safety might easily be jeopardised by acting on it.

And, as someone else has already said, that approach gives your opponents carte blanche to do exactly the same without fear of criticism from you.

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Someone previously, here, proposed the use of drugs. I believe that what we're talking about is "Truth Serum". So, let's take a look at this "Truth Serum" that has been suggested as a more humane alternative to things such as water boarding.

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Wasn't me, so let's not bother. I don't condone that any more than waterboarding.