A while ago I was lectured by a pain slut that only through experiencing heavy pain can a sub reach sub space and that since I am not really into heavy pain then my sub/slaves have only experienced orgasmic space.
What do you think?
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A while ago I was lectured by a pain slut that only through experiencing heavy pain can a sub reach sub space and that since I am not really into heavy pain then my sub/slaves have only experienced orgasmic space.
What do you think?
Subspace? Orgasmic Space? Aren't these just names for the way people try to describe their feelings and subjective because of this.
After listening to one woman's description of one or the other I might think that I've never been there...but maybe I have, and the words I use to describe it are: 'Shit, that was hot!'
Not that I am an expert on this thing, and probably have only experienced one single moment of sub space so far, from what I gather subspace can be attained differently for each individual.
Subs who are into pain, experience sub space through intense pain play. Subs who are into bondage experience sub space through intricate bondage positions, ect.... you get the idea.
I am into humiliation and degradation, and definately not into pain. A little bit maybe, but the majority of the time the pain is not supposed to be pleasurable for me, so I cannot get into any real head space, even when I am being verbally humiliated the whole time.
There was one time though, where I reached that sub space through some intense humiliation and by then pain was not an issue, I could recieve it without being affected by it.
So to sum up my rambling, I wouldn't say that only sub space can be achieved by intense pain. It can be achieved through whatever the sub enjoys. I wouldn't call it any other name, because then you would have to come up with a name for mine.
Hmmm... Interesting notion.
I'll preface this by saying I do enjoy pretty intense pain play. J and I also recently (yesterday, in fact) began to work breath play into our sessions and that threw me into a whole new strata of subspace. We always have a debriefing after intense sessions like that, and after the breath play He asked me to describe in as much detail as I could what goes on in my head when I "go someplace else" like that. I told Him it is like standing at the end of a long hallway with many open doors along each side and one at the end. Beyond each doorway there is something different going on: a different thought or sensation or impression. As I begin to focus on His voice, or on the pain or the pleasure; it's as if He is closing the doors in this hallway one by one. As each door closes the sound and the movement behind it cease and my focus zeros in on the one, last, remaining door at the end of the hallway until what is beyond it is all I can see and hear. As each other door closes, what lies directly in front of me becomes louder and brighter and more intense. That place at the end of that hallway, that's what subspace is for me. Pain coupled with J's voice will take me there the most quickly, breath play apparently gets the job done as well, but He can also take me there through nothing but words and the pleasure of His hands on me.
Get there via whatever route you choose, but for me the destination is still subspace.
Absolutely brilliant description.Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
i must be naive cos ive never heard of orgasmic space lol i just thought they are even more enjoyable,intense and longer lasting orgasms although after reading DowntonAmbers comments about breath play as that does make a very big difference in how it feels both mentally and physically it did make me wonder
whilst pain can and often does space me out bondage (rope not chains) tends to space me out way more and way quicker and in a totally different way,as for how it feels during it, its very very difficult to put into words as im often not too sure myself i can only really verbalise and know for sure when im coming back down.
although when it gets to that stage Icehawk brings me back out of it slowly anyway,he knows im not capable of really knowing and feeling anything and am unable to focus on anything and am generally disorientated for a while afterwards.
I'm with you icey - I've not heard of 'orgasmic space' but suppose when in the throws of an orgasm (even vanilla delivered), there is a little 'lift-off' there lol
Some people are under the impression that only pain can take you to subspace as it requires an endorphin rush and pain is the quickest way to send those endorphins into overdrive. So if that is true and a sub isn't into pain play does that mean she never gets to experience subspace? Probably not lol.
Personally, I think that whatever is intense for you works to get those endorphins going - a simple blindfold may be it, enlicting fear to work your endorphins instead - there are many ways, all as unique as each individual that helps I'm sure. This sub sounds like she is just posturing because she likes pain and feels that if you aren't a painslut, then you aren't sub enough - instead she is just a simple masochist hehe
i would have to agree with gem and icey as i have never heard of 'orgasmic space' either. Amber's description of subspace is FANTASTIC! And i also agree that it can be reached by whatever route the individual finds overwhelming to 'them'. Not someone else. And i do mean overwhelming in a good way. As gem said, endorphins can be released by many different routes. And reaching subspace is as individual a trip for each as is their particular relationship.
just my two cents worth
it seems everyone agrees then with me that orgasmic space is just subspace reached by a mix of pleasure pain. I have had a few tell me that subspace is a hypnotic experience. Since I have taken sub/slave into hypnosis without there knowing what I was doing I have seen great similarities in the two.
Talking with an old slave of mine she says she misses though experiences the most, finding that only the world my voice constructs for her is real and wonderful to her like nothing else she ever experienced.
can i just say WOW.....ive definatly never been there i want to go lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
To answer the question most frankly, Russell, I think that this pain slut you speak of was playing a variation of a power game I've always called "I've Got A Secret" or "I Know Something You Don't" by renaming subspace something else so only she had been there, and only she knew the "real deal."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
I say that for reasons pointed out in the thread already. "Subspace" by whatever name:
1. is not always reached by the same way for each person
2. it does not have the same "threshold" or edge of entry for each person
3. it is not equally "black and white" about whether one is "there" or not for each person
4. once reached, is not "A" place for every person, but rather, for some, is more and/or less intense while on the "other side," that is, being within subspace has degrees of intensity.
I say "pah" on her contention and drive rather to what she thought to gain from knowing more than you, the Dom to whom she spoke.
Recently I took a lovely lady deep into subspace she was gone nothing mattered but my touch, spanking her clit to several climaxes. She found herself doing things for me willingly that she swore she would never do and doing them about as well as I have ever experienced she did this very slowly and calmly. Her speech was slow husky and a little other worldly.
I then took her with my voice and some small touches I took her into a very different world using a form of hypnosis.
Later, while doing a very vanilla 69 as she grew near climaxing I bit her inner thigh pretty hard and she came hard. Later the fact that she came so hard to that pain had her concerned I explained that she was still in subspace and it was just another aspect of subspace and that she had experienced at least 3 of them.
Well, I can't say that I agree. Orgasmic space, for me, while it can certainly be coupled with sub space, can be separate entirely from sub space as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
Again for me, orgasmic space is an intense frenzied awareness of myself while orgasming. All else is blocked out except for the want of the next cum. I can get to O'space on my own, without any Domly triggers whatsoever. Can't do that with subspace.
Yeah, two totally separate things for me.
It has always been my understanding that sub space is acheived through the endorphine release from pain responses.
Where I go during a good teasing session followed by a strong orgasm is a different place then where I go during a flogging. Both are quite nice. But they are different.
In "orgasmic space", if we are going to call it that, I am still capable of rational thought for the most part, and can speak and communicate. Even if it just all comes out as "please please please please!" Sub space pretty much clears my mind of all thought and speech doesn't really happen. If he asks me a question he will be lucky to get a grunt or a moan in response.
From my experience, the lack of speech during subspace is quite common. This makes over-reliance on safewords very dangerous as the sub just doesn't have the ability to say the words.
Things like bondage and blindfolds can cause me to focus quite a bit, but don't put me into subspace.
And I am far from a painslut.
Yes, not that I'm an expert by any stretch but that's always been my understanding of it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by lily27
An interesting thread by the way. :)
I as well.
Now ask about chocolate-space, and you'll get yet another response. :rolleyes:
oooops!! double entendre.
i think the pain slut in question has had one type of experience and enjoyed it alot.. therefore it must be the whole world. really. *smile*Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
i think it would require a purely S&M perspective to confuse an endorphin high with the mental and emotional state of bliss some people call 'subspace'. one takes pain and trauma and the other takes... no touch at all necessarily.
id just pat them on the head and pay them no mind if it were me.
IŽd put my money on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearJammer{kuriouspet}
Every Person is different. Sounds as if this pain slut is speaking for Everone? Or trying to. And "lecturing" You? ummmQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
What takes a Submissive to Subspace imo/e depends on them and Their Dominant, not General opinion.
Perhaps this pain slut You speak of can *only* get to Subspace through extreme pain? Doesn't mean All Submissives/Slaves *only* get there that way.
Me for example; A good hand spanking on my bottom will bring me up on the short end of that Leash and to Subspace very well Thank You. Hand Spanking is not heavy pain generally <G>. Or maybe I'm just too easy? lol
Respectfully~SidheWolf
I Agree, different Levels but not different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
Respectfully~SidheWolf
no disrespect intended Sir_Russell , but i cant help wondering is hypnotising someone when there not aware of it ethical or fair? i have to be honest i wouldnt be overly happy if someone had messed about with my head without me knowing beforehand. regardless of whether sub/slave or not.
or maybe that just sounds a bit PC to some lol
and also isnt being in an hypnotic state different from subspace? it may have similar 'symptoms' but its not the same, ive been hypnotised before and it feels totally different, both physically,mentally and emotionally.
other than being a bit 'out of it' i cant see any real connection between the two, or even the point in hypnosis for a sexual/play 'activity' of course thats only my opinion and im also interested in what is actually gained by it.
i found myself in subspace not long ago, simply from a conversation. i was having coffee with a dom and had this kind of out of body experience just based on his words and how he looked at me. it was wonderful!
I really liked the way you explained this, I will use this in the future!Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
There is a great book, available in part through books.google even, called At the Side of Torture Survivors, which makes the argument that torture's only goal is the destruction (or sublimation) of the individual identity, to allow the torturer/dom to imprint a new identity.
I'm quite interested in the description of how this 'new identity' is created; the tormentor obviously can't supply all of the details necessary to form a cogent identity, and in fact one supplies very little, just a kernel. The remainder is supplied by the victim/sub who has to subconsciously guess at what to add; part of the function of terror in torture then, is to make sure that the subby crafts a new identity that you'll like.
Based upon descriptions of sub-space and descriptions of what its like to have your identity disintegrated through torture, I think the two are pretty similar... though I've never been in either position. I can't help but wonder if sub-space is just another way of describing the abrogation of the individual.
No problem, we aims to please! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Nuahs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virulent
"New identity?" That one could be an argument of semantics I could fall on either side of the fence on.
"...another way of describing the abrogation of the individual?" In some cases, perhaps, in my case, not at all. There is an intense focus in the experience for me and it is very affirming of my individuality. The intimacy is in large part to letting my Dom "take part in me."
Physical (orgasmic) vs mental (subspace) pleasure ?
Would "innerspace" be the word? That special time/experience, where you reach far inside yourself and have the sensation of reaching your goal or what your seeking? Just for a brief moment?
Sounding kind of religious, when explained this way :-)
i guess you could rationalize several different variaties of sub space if yu wanted
i also suppose however simular it may be for everyone that experiences it, that infact its actually also unique for each one,, heck sometimes the "sub space" place for me isnt even allwasy the same sensation,, spme times its all these and more or only one
sometimes it makes me feel euphoria, intense longing, out of body allmost dreaming ,floating, powerful, comsumed, weak, strong, alive, dead, like holding an electrical fence, like drowning, like breathing air for the first time, like what freedom, true freedom tastes like, or just plain old WOW
describing it is like trying to find the hot spot on the clity with a new girl for the first time,, elusive but palpable
I agree with denu on that.
As for that lady who lectured you, Sir_Russell: Her opinion reminds me of the "clitoral versus vaginal orgasm" debate of a few years earlier... Some men wanted women to believe the clitoral one was not a "genuine" one, and the real thing could only be achieved by penetration (of course, duhh).
To each his own. WouldnŽt it be horrible if all people were the same?
Kind regards
Arria
Pinches Arria for her good post. I have no real opinion on this other than to say; I think only a person thats experienced the female version of "sub space" really knows what it is for her.
I speak from some experience as a former "resitance" training instructor for the military, on the subject of torture and phycological manipulation. There are many paralells to D/s and what we in the trade call comparmenting of a prisoner during torture and interogation, or phycological conditioning.
Despite some simularities, the phycological compartmenting described by Virulent is quiet different as I understand it, from "sub space".
*wonders if, regarding his former occupation, pinching Kuskovian was as good an idea as it seemed at the time...*
That depends Arria, do you feel as if you are being phycologically manipulated or conditioned to do certian things since the pinching?
Or:
Were you somehow compeled to pinch in the first place?
Is it possible that it is both?
To train people to resist torture and phycological conditioning one must of course become deft in it's implementation by de-fault.
Ps. I found out what *WEG* means today.
*pinch*
lmao..oh dear lord its begun "pinch wars" via thread drift
I also believe subspace is different for every sub. Its all those dreams and fantasys that you had as you grew up. Wondering if they would ever become reality. And your unconscious holds those memorys and when you actually experience them your whole body just goes into this bliss....everything around you vanishes. Its like your lifted to a place you have never been before, but you know you want to go there again, again. I think your whole body lets go, there is no time, no sense of being. My Masters voice starts and ends it..he controls how long i stay there. For me, its not knowing when he will take me there,,,,its not the anticipation of knowing that starts the journey...but the immediate rush when it does. I am, so far, not into intense pain, i think my Master gets inside my mind, and his power grows...He is my Master, and I will always be his submissive...