Women

After a particularly nasty experience with a woman I had a relationship of sorts with, I took somewhat of a step back from relationships and spent a lot of time reading philosophy. This was as much due to my health as much as anything else I should add. However, I was reading Schoppenhauer who is a bit of a misogynist and came across this quote which pretty much summed up my experience.

Hence, it will be found that the fundamental fault of the female character is that it has no sense of justice. This is mainly due to the fact, already mentioned, that women are defective in the power of reasoning and deliberation; but it is also traceable to the position which Nature has assigned to them as the weaker sex. They are dependent not upon strength, but upon craft, and hence their instinctive capacity for cunning, and their incredible tendency to say what is not true.

Now I'm not saying Schoppenhauer has hit the nail on the head when it comes to women but I think he touched on a basic problem between the sexes and that is we are assigned by nature different functions and the sexes have devised strategies to fullfill those functions.

My question is, are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a conventient excuse used by one or the other?

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Originally Posted by bunkerchief

Hence, it will be found that the fundamental fault of the female character is that it has no sense of justice. This is mainly due to the fact, already mentioned, that women are defective in the power of reasoning and deliberation; but it is also traceable to the position which Nature has assigned to them as the weaker sex. They are dependent not upon strength, but upon craft, and hence their instinctive capacity for cunning, and their incredible tendency to say what is not true.

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Well that just pisses me off! I will and do put my reasoning ability (and ability to speak truth) up against an man's any day of the week.

I think you would learn more by reading "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars" rather than Schoppenhauer.

I think you are both missing the point. After the provocative quote was my question.

My question is, are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a conventient excuse used by one or the other?

As for reading "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars" and I understand you point of suggesting that, I think Harry potter would be more informative.

No, I don't think they missed the point.

I'd already come to the conclusion, before reading this post, that you'd recently had a bad go-round with the opposite sex.

The answer to your question is that you certainly believe it.

They may have missed your point bunkerchief, but surely you expected some kind of negative response from your original post? You basically quoted a man that says women are lesser beings and then asked if that was why the sexes can't get along. Very inflamatory.Perhaps you should clarify your point because I too have missed it.

Remember everyone to keep the personal insults out of this. I will close down the thread if I have to.



Oh and as just me, not the all-powerful supermod, :rolleyes: I have to say I've been outsmarted by women a hell of a lot more often then by men.

Sorry you had a bad experience with a partner. We've all been there.

No need to hate all women, any more than any other group of people, because you've been hurt by one.

I had a crap marriage many years ago, & am now married to the most beautiful person in the whole world- almost 16 years now.

I've known a few men who were slightly less than perfect too, I just wish we could all get on. :dunno:

Tojo

If you want to talk about "defective in the power of reasoning and deliberation", you might want to start with the sloppy thinking that assigns to an entire gender the traits observed in one or two samples. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

No, I don't think they missed the point.

I'd already come to the conclusion, before reading this post, that you'd recently had a bad go-round with the opposite sex.

The answer to your question is that you certainly believe it.

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Then you did miss my point. I was being provocative to start a debate and no I haven't had a recent bad go-round with the opposite sex, though like most people I've had that ride. Obviously you automatically take a defensive attitude which suggests to me that you've been on that ride too.

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Originally Posted by Aesop

You basically quoted a man that says women are lesser beings and then asked if that was why the sexes can't get along. Very inflamatory.

Oh and as just me, not the all-powerful supermod, :rolleyes: I have to say I've been outsmarted by women a hell of a lot more often then by men.

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I quoted Schoppenhauer for a reason apart from him being is a great philosopher, he posited, desire comes prior to thought and will, prior to being and that humans are eternally tormented by desire. Well you can take the reasoning from there.

In his essay on women he claimed that 'women are by nature meant to obey'. While not every woman is a sub and not every sub is a woman, for the most part in bdsm it is women that are subs so you can see, my choice of Schoppenhauer is apt.

This is a BDSM forum isn't it?

I noticed a lack of debate on the board so I thought I would start one in the appropriate section of the board. This is the Religion and Philosophy section isn't it?

Is letting me know you are a super-mod a mild threat telling me I should pat the back of the person who posted before me? ;-)

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After a particularly nasty experience with a woman I had a relationship of so

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no I haven't had a recent bad go-round with the opposite sex

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rts with

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Um I'm confused? As for the quote from Schoppenhauer to say this before it:

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I was reading Schoppenhauer who is a bit of a misogynist

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Is blatantly inflammatory. If in fact he did say that he's one of the greatest mysogynists to walk the earth! Now that's being polite.....

I don't mind a bit of debate, check my previous post- however to me, this isn't the way to discuss things, nor does it seem constructive. I don't doubt you have a point somewhere in there, but to me it's swamped by a pervading hatred of all women.
Maybe you could clarify your point in a more um, diplomatic way?

Look forward to a genuine debate anytime.

Tojo

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Originally Posted by Tojo

but to me it's swamped by a pervading hatred of all women.

Tojo

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That is a prejudice brought to the debate, the automatic assumption that the preposer of the debate holds the position of the proposal.

As for the negative experience, I didn't say it was recent, I just said I had one which was really part of the introduction to the debate and what brought the idea of the debate to mind.

The truth is and I really don't think this has a place in such a debate is that I have only found one woman objectionable in my life and as the father of two daughters I do everything in my power to make sure they have a rich and rewarding life.

However, I don't think personal sentimentality brings justice to a rigorous debate which is what I was hoping for.

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Originally Posted by bunkerchief

I quoted Schoppenhauer for a reason apart from him being is a great philosopher, he posited, desire comes prior to thought and will, prior to being and that humans are eternally tormented by desire. Well you can take the reasoning from there.

In his essay on women he claimed that 'women are by nature meant to obey'. While not every woman is a sub and not every sub is a woman, for the most part in bdsm it is women that are subs so you can see, my choice of Schoppenhauer is apt.

This is a BDSM forum isn't it?

I noticed a lack of debate on the board so I thought I would start one in the appropriate section of the board. This is the Religion and Philosophy section isn't it?

Is letting me know you are a super-mod a mild threat telling me I should pat the back of the person who posted before me? ;-)

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Not at all. It's a promise that if this thread or any of your others degenerates into stupid flames I will shut it-and you-down. You claim here and elsewhere that you want to start debates. Okay great. I love a good debate. Insult is not debate. Sarcasm is not debate. How about answering some of the questions posed to you instead of just defending your right to piss people off?

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Originally Posted by Aesop

Not at all. It's a promise that if this thread or any of your others degenerates into stupid flames I will shut it-and you-down. You claim here and elsewhere that you want to start debates. Okay great. I love a good debate. Insult is not debate. Sarcasm is not debate. How about answering some of the questions posed to you instead of just defending your right to piss people off?

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OK, Now I have to work but I'll be back later and answer some of the questions posed.

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

If you want to talk about "defective in the power of reasoning and deliberation", you might want to start with the sloppy thinking that assigns to an entire gender the traits observed in one or two samples. :rolleyes:

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I quoted Schoppenhauer because of his extreme view and to start a debate. Obviously it was a lot more provocative and blood boiling than I had in mind because it started anything but a debate. Misogyny is also probably a bad term to use as it has so many gender political connotations.

However, I will carry on using the term misogyny and hope people take a step back a little before answering as to not use it would lead into so many diviations and clarifications. It is widely held in many intellectual circles that misogyny is an inate trait in a male's make up. That is not to say a male is a misogynist per se but when a male denies having any trait of misogyny in him I would challenge him. It's rather like when someone says 'I'm not a racist' when they have been socialised into an inherently racist society. What they mean to say is, I don't believe in racism. However, no matter that they have intellectually rejected racism, it doesn't mean to say they have stopped all subconscious racist thought or actions.

Males aren't aroused by liking women but by wanting them. It is the nature of the beast. (OK my belief).That is not to say men will automatically act on the impulse of wanting a particular woman but the cue is subconsciously there. A man can and would for the most part, given the opportunity, engage sexually with a woman on a clothes line if possible. (evolutionary theory) He has to spread himself around to make sure he at least inpregnates one female so his genes carry on. (As the saying goes, it takes a wiseman to know his father). In many cases his behaviour would be modified by socialisation and indoctrinated moral standards.

Women or so I'm informed, while they might feel aroused by the sight of a particular male, prefer to feel safe, secure and comfortable before engaging in sexual activity. After all (going back to evolutionary theory), she is making the bigger investment than the male because she could get pregnant. She would also want the male for protection and providing (getting more irrelevent in modern society because this provision is provided by the group i.e society). The need and the strategy of the woman is then at odds with the male and vice versa. At least subconsciously if not intellectually or so the theory goes.

Which comes back to my original question: are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a conventient excuse used by one or the other?

Is misunderstanding and miscommunication destined to happen? Of course. I wouldn't just say between the opposite sexes. I have often had misunderstanding with the same sex. It mostly depends upon the person you are commumicating with.

Just because you are of opposite sex doesn't mean you have an excuse for miscommunication. It is up to the individuals to make sure you are communicating properly and effectively; that goes for the same sex as well.

subwife

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Originally Posted by submissivewife

Is misunderstanding and miscommunication destined to happen? Of course. I wouldn't just say between the opposite sexes. I have often had misunderstanding with the same sex. It mostly depends upon the person you are commumicating with.

Just because you are of opposite sex doesn't mean you have an excuse for miscommunication. It is up to the individuals to make sure you are communicating properly and effectively; that goes for the same sex as well.

subwife

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Hmm I was thinking that the sexes operate strategies instinctively on a subconscious level which is a cause for the confusion and miscommunication or whether, do we operate these strategies on a more conscious level?

We all have operated irrationally and then rationalised our actions, we can only be fully honest about ourselves by standing outside ourselves as well as being fully aware of our motives.


Getting back to Schoppenhauer, he more or less says, control the desire and you control the torment desire creates which is another reason why I quoted him. Hmm which isn't a smart thing to post on an explicitly sexual site! lol

Actully quoting Schoppenhouer wouldn't be well received on any other site. His philosphy is really gender insulting.

Yes, our subconscious does get in the way often, BUT, in my opinion clarity between the two individuals is important. Yes, we have acted irrationally and tried to justify ourselves. Really, it is futile. Are we fully aware of our actions all the time,NO, we aren't, but once we have them pointed out one must communicate what, why, how etc.

Does this give us reason to blame miscommuncation on our gender...NO. In my opinion it is the very reason we have to be more communicative.

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Originally Posted by submissivewife

Does this give us reason to blame miscommuncation on our gender...NO. In my opinion it is the very reason we have to be more communicative.

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One of the reasons given for many wars is miscommunication both in actions and verbal communication. If such miscalculations from professional communicators can cost the lives of millions, it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to imagine miscommunication and miscalculation between the sexes on either a deliberate or subconscious level.

Simply saying communicate better has never stopped a war, which is why understanding the subconcious motivations and calculations are worthy of discussion and deliberation.

Just to add, if you read my post I wasn't blaming either sex, though I was somewhat provocative in calling attention to it I admit.

Yes, you were provocative in calling attention to it...no just "somewhat". We do like discussions in the Forums. WE do not like to have them twisted to activate an all out argument. Our opinions will aways very. That is just the nature of humans. (Which I might add has also lead to wars and bad situations.) So when one disagrees please accept their opinion. Doesn't mean you have to agree, just let them have their say.

Yesterday you caused quite a stir, not only in this thread but also in "Sugarcoated Life" thread. State your point, then let others have their say. It is our right to do so. Because of the conflict of yesterday it caused one of my threads to be closed. I am moderator here and I will step up and say something next time. I will not have my threads closed. Everyone has the right to state there opinion.

Now, if you do have interesting topics, by all means post it. Just accept that others opinions will very.

subwife

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Originally Posted by Tojo

Sorry you had a bad experience with a partner. We've all been there.

No need to hate all women, any more than any other group of people, because you've been hurt by one.

I had a crap marriage many years ago, & am now married to the most beautiful person in the whole world- almost 16 years now.

I've known a few men who were slightly less than perfect too, I just wish we could all get on. :dunno:

Tojo

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I totally agree Tojo, just because One (or more then one) has hurt you doesn't mean you have to hate us all! Everyone has bad experiences, and everyone gets their heart broken at some point in their life. But that doesn't mean that every woman (or every man) is the same. I still believe that there are good people in the world...both men and women.

:shithappe time to move on and let it go.

My introduction was obviously misleading because everybody is focusing on that and not my question which was GENDER NEUTRAL.

My question was;- are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a convenient excuse used by one or the other?


For the record and to clear this up once and for all, since that experience I've had seven lovers and a baby daughter so as you can see it was a long time ago and it wasn't about a bruised ego but an act of extreme maliciousness which I admit, still has consequences. Shit does happen and it's best to let go but sometimes the shit sticks.

This is a religious and a philosophical thread and my question is philosophical and not to do with anything personal so I admit in making the initial mistake of including something personal in the introduction.

Alright everyone, get on topic....comment on the question not the "experience". That has been dealt with and he has apoligized three times now for the goof.

Girls....I was offended to....His experience did distract from the original purpose for the discussion, but let's focus on the question and give your comments to that. Stop attaching. Guys, that goes for you too!

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My question was;- are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a convenient excuse used by one or the other?

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If you want to discuss this topic, then comment to the question above. Forget the other bullshit!

subwife

OK then subwife, you feisty thing.....:)

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My question is, are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a conventient excuse used by one or the other?

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My answer to that specific question is 'no I don't believe so'. I don't have any more trouble communicating with women than I do with men or any other group. A group of people is made up by individuals, who may or may not have anything in common with each other.

That's my personal opinion based on my personal experiences.

Thanks Heather. :rose:

Tojo

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Originally Posted by Tojo

OK then subwife, you feisty thing.....:)

Tojo

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:11: When I need to be........

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Originally Posted by bunkerchief

I quoted Schoppenhauer because of his extreme view and to start a debate. Obviously it was a lot more provocative and blood boiling than I had in mind because it started anything but a debate. Misogyny is also probably a bad term to use as it has so many gender political connotations.

However, I will carry on using the term misogyny and hope people take a step back a little before answering as to not use it would lead into so many diviations and clarifications. It is widely held in many intellectual circles that misogyny is an inate trait in a male's make up. That is not to say a male is a misogynist per se but when a male denies having any trait of misogyny in him I would challenge him. It's rather like when someone says 'I'm not a racist' when they have been socialised into an inherently racist society. What they mean to say is, I don't believe in racism. However, no matter that they have intellectually rejected racism, it doesn't mean to say they have stopped all subconscious racist thought or actions.

Males aren't aroused by liking women but by wanting them. It is the nature of the beast. (OK my belief).That is not to say men will automatically act on the impulse of wanting a particular woman but the cue is subconsciously there. A man can and would for the most part, given the opportunity, engage sexually with a woman on a clothes line if possible. (evolutionary theory) He has to spread himself around to make sure he at least inpregnates one female so his genes carry on. (As the saying goes, it takes a wiseman to know his father). In many cases his behaviour would be modified by socialisation and indoctrinated moral standards.

Women or so I'm informed, while they might feel aroused by the sight of a particular male, prefer to feel safe, secure and comfortable before engaging in sexual activity. After all (going back to evolutionary theory), she is making the bigger investment than the male because she could get pregnant. She would also want the male for protection and providing (getting more irrelevent in modern society because this provision is provided by the group i.e society). The need and the strategy of the woman is then at odds with the male and vice versa. At least subconsciously if not intellectually or so the theory goes.

Which comes back to my original question: are the sexes destined to misunderstand and miscommunicate with each other or when miscommunication happens is it a conventient excuse used by one or the other?

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OK, I'm not a philosophy "follower", for want of a better way to put it. I do believe though, that there is truth to be followed in your question.

Men and women think differently, this has been proven time and again, not just sexually, but in everything the two separate sexes do. Our mental make up is different, and as a result we are going to miscommunicate to one another.

That's not to say we shouldn't make an effort to reach beyond those communication problems, but when we don't, that is when we have the miscues that create problems between the sexes.

I too am speaking from a bad relationship experience that still reaches of the many years since it took place. Communication or lack there of, and even misunderstanding the information being presented was the bulk of the problem in that relationship, among other things, but if the communication had been more direct I believe the outcome may have been different even if the relationship still ultimately didn't survive.

BTW: This is my 2 cents worth and to tell you the truth I felt inferior mental making it.

This thread is kinda funny.....and I will resist getting into it myself for fear of....getting into it.

Ayla, thanks for inspiring me to do the same.


Sometimes it's better to say nothing than say something when you have nothing to say.
:confused:

Tojo

Hey folks I hope you all ain't afraid to post because of Aesop the snarling fox. lol

I really enjoy a good debate and hope to have and participate in a bunch of them in the future here, but I can't allow the flames to fly. So as long as everybody keeps to the topic at hand then everybody will be fine. :)

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Originally Posted by Aesop

Hey folks I hope you all ain't afraid to post because of Aesop the snarling fox. lol

I really enjoy a good debate and hope to have and participate in a bunch of them in the future here, but I can't allow the flames to fly. So as long as everybody keeps to the topic at hand then everybody will be fine. :)

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It's not you dude....

Was it me?

LOL No!!

Nope wasn't Aesop or subwife that scared me off- although subwife was a bit scary....
It's just a debate that isn't going anywhere.

Tojo

Personally, I don't aspire to the notion that gender difference is the cause of misunderstanding or miscommunication. Although, I'm in agreement with those who believe that some people use it as a convenient excuse.

I work in an office that is overwhelmingly staffed by females, most of whom I communicate with well. If there has been any clashes, their causes have been personality differences, which could happen with other males as well. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I communicate with someone. In a job situation, most of the communicating is strictly job related anyway.

On a personal note, I went through an emotionally draining experience with a woman, but that was twenty years ago. That one event, however, did not sour me toward all women. In fact, as a group, I love having the opposite gender around. The woman I'm with now has been here for ten years. Sure there have been miscommications from time to time as in any relationship. But the fact that we are opposite genders is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Tojo

Nope wasn't Aesop or subwife that scared me off- although subwife was a bit scary....
It's just a debate that isn't going anywhere.

Tojo

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Your right this conversation has gone no where. Sorry Tojo....didn't mean to be scary.

Oh I like a sub with a mind of their own & who can stand up for themselves subwife- it's great to see.

I'd like to see some of these wannabee Doms with my girls- they'd be chewed up & spat out in 2 seconds flat!

Stay scary- I love it! :wel

Tojo