Are kids growing up to fast?

I was watching a news special about the clothes these young girls are wearing.. and I literally wanted to hurl.

I have a 10 year old sister and I cannot imagine my parents letting her wear half of what was being shown! I am 20 and yes I like sexy things and yes I wanted to be "cute" .. "Sexy".. "attractive" ... when I was younger but I really think parents need to draw the line. 10 year olds do not need to look 14.. and 14 year olds do not need to look 18. I don't think short skirts and booty shorts are appropriate for children.. I don't think halter tops, spaghetti strapped shirts and 2 piece bikinis are appropriate.

I know.. where do you draw the line? When do you let them start to dress sexier, etc?

But still, does anyone agree with me? Are these kids growing up to fast? People wonder why oledr men are attracted to these young girls.. could it have anything to do with the fact that these children do not look or act like children? What happened to barbie dolls and afternoon tea?

Also all of these girls being exploited on Myspace. WHERE ARE THE PARENTS?! Why is your 10, 11,12,13,14 year old on a public website... where do they get these pictures they put up? Why don't you check to see what your kids are doing? most schools block sites like Myspace... and in many cases these kids are getting exploited while talking to strangers from the home PC..

I know a lot of parents work.. and can't be around 24/7... but I think parents need to take more responsibility. Let your kids be kids... interact with them. But resrictions on their PC use.. .etc... there are ways to protect your kids!

I know this has gotten long but I wanted to see what many of you think. I know many of us are more "open minded" but what about this case? Should your kids be aloud to dress as they please? Or do you think these clothes little girls are wearing are out of hand?

Anya

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Originally Posted by wingsofanangel

I know a lot of parents work.. and can't be around 24/7... but I think parents need to take more responsibility. Let your kids be kids... interact with them. But resrictions on their PC use.. .etc... there are ways to protect your kids!

I know this has gotten long but I wanted to see what many of you think. I know many of us are more "open minded" but what about this case? Should your kids be aloud to dress as they please? Or do you think these clothes little girls are wearing are out of hand?

Anya

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Wings,

First let me say your Avatar is awesome. Second I couldn't agree more with what you say.

I think the parents should definitely take an active roll in what their children wear. I also don't think they should let their boys wear pants down around their knees. I don't think children should even be allowed to think about dating until they reach 16 years of age unless accompanied by a parent or guardian. If they attend parties there must be responsible adult supervision.

I believe deterioration of morals has a lot to do with society today. Whatever makes you feel good, do it, is wrong in my opinion. These kids just don't care what anyone thinks of them, especially adults.

I also think they should allow more corporal punishment by teachers and parents without the fear of being reported to some damn government agency for child abuse. Kids used to have much more respect for what adults had to say and also what adults thought about them. The "do gooders" have helped ruin that.

One more point. I don't think perverts should be allowed to hang around WEB sites like MY SPACE. How do you police that? They have taken some steps recently but I don't know how effective they will be. On the other hand, I also think using entrapment in trying to catch these perverts is wrong. So now what? My suggestion would be, as you say, more parental involvement in the use of PCs.

Anyway, I agree with you.

My husband and I long ago decided not to have kids for a long list of reasons. We're firm believers in the idea that if you're going to have kids, you need to be willing to spend a whole lot of your time making sure they're not doing stupid things or getting themselves into trouble. And that includes things like making sure their video games and TV shows aren't too violent for their age.

We call clothing like Wings described "junior skank wear". Just as much as parents need to be careful with what their kids are playing and watching, they need to be more responsible about what their kids wear. Objectification of females, while apparently inevitable for some, doesn't need to start while they're kids.

I think Maddie has hit the proverbial nail on the blunt end.

People just don't seem to have the time to spend with their kids.

All these issues can be addressed at least partly in my humble opinon (no we don't have kids....) by parents putting the effort in.

Of course the world is not a nice place- so many of us are caught up in consumerism (if you feel bad, buy something) are filled with hatred & suspicion & are pretty darn selfish.

We have enough trouble bringing up a dog- we decided long ago never to have kids, before my wife lost her health.

Oh & Anya....if I have nightmares about your av, I'm blaming you! :wow_nbs:

Tojo

thanks for the replies guys. And yeah.. my Avatar does rule :)

Anyway, yes. Parents. There are still the same 24 hrs in day as there were 50 years ago. How is time being divided? Is that extra overtime really needed? Do you HAVE to make those 3 phone calls? Does it REALLY take 2 hours to check your e-mail? Now I know parents need time to relax.. Lord my parents had 5 kids.. I understand... but they still always took the time to take care of us kids. I wasn't aloud to wear high heels (the littel ones) and real panty hose until I was 13... No makeup until I was 14 ( and just a litte) ... No 2 piece bathing suits until I was 15.. and then it was because I am so long that 1 pieces didn't fit properly. I was only aloud to wear the tank-top style 2 pieces. Not aloud to date until I was 18 or showed that I was ready for the responsabilities.. and then my parents and I would sit down and decide.

Now some might think this was/is strict.. really I just think it was my parents having an active involvment. When my family went to a wedding, party,etc... Every boy who wanted to dance with me knew who I was and went and asked my father first (he always said yes) ... my parents demanded respect and obedience.. yet I can hardly ever remember being punished...

Am I scarred? No... My parents were great. It wasn't June Cleaver's house.. yes there was yelling, fighting, money problems, etc... but they ALWAYS took the time to spend with us. My mom would sit at the pc with me we'd do things together.... they had access to all my e-mail accounts/IMs (except a hotmail one I hid.. hehe) until I was like 17 or 18.

Yes, sometimes it sucked.. But you know what? I don't have any stds, unwanted pregnancies, mental trauma, trouble in school, etc... I wholeheartedly believe this is because my parents took a TRUE interest in me.

P arents need to stop worrying about being "cool" and their kids friends... be a parent first.. the friendship will come.

And WHAT is the deal with parents letting their 15 yr olds get tattoos? Personally I don't think a child ( YES 15 IS A CHILD!) is ready to have something like that on their bodies. Did YOU know what you wanted at 15? I doubt it.

Yes there are rare cases .. some kids just are more "grown up" ... but I really do blame a lot of parents.... t.v. and video games are not babysitters.

Anya

I totally agree. Luckily for me I have a son and hopefully he will never want to wear short shorts or skirts lol. (Unless he ends up like my Dad...oops did I just say that? haha) Anyway, as for spending time with your children...well I've only had a job for two days now...he comes to work with me. I'm fortunate for that, but even when I had a job a couple of years ago that he couldn't tag along with, I still managed to spend a whole lot of time with him.

Of course I was blessed with a really awesome kid, so it's actually fun to hang out with him. Plus I'm still young myself so we enjoy the same things haha. Doing the best I can and hoping that I don't screw him up.

There are a lot of differences of opinions in bringing up children. There are no rule books, but certainly rights and wrongs.

I think kids today are more "knowledgeable" than we were in my day .. 60's. We did'nt have all the PC games, access to internet, movies, sex ed that they do today.

Most of the parents these days are still children themselves! Where does guidance/teaching stop and responsibility begin?

I have two sons. My youngest, he will be 16 this year, is what's termed a "straight A student". He has always excelled at school, is very polite and respectful of everyone, not just his elders. I am constantly praised on the way both conduct theirselves. So imagine my surprise when I got a phone call a few weeks ago from another parent telling me J was there, he was ok, but was .. drunk!

Within seconds I went through a gammet of emotions. Worry. Panic. Anger.

I was trying to compute in my head the why's, hows and wherefores whilst on route to get him.

He has been brought up knowing rights and wrongs. He is'nt a trouble maker, a layabout, a disruptable child. And he most certainly isn't a drunk! And yet, I was shocked to say the least, that this could happen to ........ my son!

All the cossetting and teaching in the world cannot protect our children from other outside influences. All we can do is hope they have enough common sense to know better, and not bow down to peer pressure. In this instance, unfortunately, J did. Regrettably, and with promises it will never happen again. Oh, and suitably punished.

But once they step outside the front door, it's a wing and a prayer they remember what they have been taught, until they walk back in it again. Sadly, not every parent have the skills, and yes, it's a skillful role, or the same thinking/morals as "you" have, and our kids interact with others from all walks of life and ideas.

It's hard. And it certainly does'nt get any easier as they get older!

Sounds like you are a wonderful parent Cynn. I just wanted to add a comment to your reply though.

You can teach your kids, you can talk to them till your blue in the face but they are still going to experiment, test their limits, it's just a natural curiousity.

I have an awesome Mother, she's always been there for me and she's always taught me right from wrong. I still went behind her back and did things though. Which is why I ended up pregnant at 16 years old. It wasn't her fault, she always warned me the dangers of having sex, she taught me that sex was for marriage. But I still wanted to do it, still did it...and came out pregnant. I DON'T REGRET IT lol.

Just pointing out that no matter how great a parent you are, once a kid becomes a teenager, they have to make their own mistakes. I'm sure you already knew that though!

Hi katie,

I totally agree with you. My friend caught her daughter (15) hiding her short skirts etc at another friends house and changing into them when she goes out ..

My point was that we can, only do so much as parents. Kids are small people with a mind of their own, and boy are they going to use it if they want to!

Me? I am the youngest of 5, and the only girl .. I brought more trouble/woe to my parents than my brothers did combined .. lol .. there was noooo way I would ever have listend to their wise words and adopt them as my own. Still, I survived, and turned out a pretty ok individual, even if I do say so myself .. lol

Yes good points that no matter how much time you spend, kids can still go haywire.

However, to cite my own experience, my parents practically told me how often to breathe. They were so damn strict I just ran away. I started when I was about 2 years old, but didn't make it until I was 15. They kept bringing me back.

It's more than just being there- 'taking a true interest' as Anya said is a part of it. Being consistent, listening to questions instead of saying 'WHAT??'

No guarantees, but to me it gives a kid a better chance at least. I wouldn't know, my old man was a bully, a control freak & had no idea how to live in the real world. As for Mum- well never mind, this isn't about my parents....

(We're over all that, remember Tojo? All those support groups...now don't start talking to yourself again.)

Tojo :cae7gler:

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Originally Posted by katie_21

Just pointing out that no matter how great a parent you are, once a kid becomes a teenager, they have to make their own mistakes. I'm sure you already knew that though!

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You can only hope that those mistakes aren't life shattering or affect the rest of their lives. That's where good upbring is the key. You hope and pray they make good choices.

The tighter you hold the leash, the more they will chew on it....lol :)

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Originally Posted by katie_21

The tighter you hold the leash, the more they will chew on it....lol :)

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But hopefully the more they will learn from a caring parent holding the other end of the leash.

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Originally Posted by katie_21

The tighter you hold the leash, the more they will chew on it....lol :)

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Ok I'll start with the fact that at least 100 people have called us unreasonabley protective. You know what though, they never lived with us. Our two kids both in college now were raised with a 24/7 stay at home mom. So we don't have a big savings for retirement.
The main thing we tried to do is not make it a leash. We always explained why we did, what we did, then we tried to make it reasonable for them.
We tried to make home a place everyone wanted to come. You can play here, you can be loud, you can be a kid.
It amazed me when the skanky dressed kids came here, the OLD young ones and they would turn back into children for a short time. Play with Barbies, bake cookies, jump on the trampoline and even play video games and watch old movies.
If your going to have children you have to devote your life to them.
I never shied away from hard questions, I always talked about sex, about drugs. We have lots of examples in the extended families. Who doesn't.
Raising kids is hard work, really hard work, and I'm glad I did it, but I glad I'm done. Now I have to trust them to do what they need to do in their life and not judge them.

Wow, so many great responses already.

I don't have kids but grew up in a large family with lots of nephews and nieces ( I became an Aunty at 4!). I agree that many young kids seem to be growing up too fast. The thing is they want to be just like the stars they see on the video clips, but they are too young to understand how they look in some of the things they want to wear. I see young girls walking around wearing things so skanky that you fear for them.

It is up to the parents to try to intsill good manners/ morals and then they just have to trust the kids remember these when they need it. Even good kids can make mistakes, but hopefully they can grow and learn from them.

I really admire all parents for the hard job they do.

I think more parents should learn about where and what their kids are looking at and going to online. And there are all sorts of software out there to let you be "big brother" aka George Bush. {{giggles}} And maybe kids should be outside playing with other kids and not online having sex talk with strangers?

And I blame Paris Hilton's parents for how children dress now. They see that slut as a role model for how they want to be. If I had a daughter and her boyfriend put out a video with her giving him head, I would not care how old she was, I would beat the shit out of her. Those girls in the public eye now are just whores with trust funds! They have worked for nothing they have so how will they ever appreciate the money? At least Lindsey Lohan makes movies for her money ... she wasn't born to the manor!

And having taught one year in public schools, AMEN to the person who suggested that more discipline should be allowed in schools now. These are kids completely out of control and I hate to it, they are getting dumber! A school's main goal is to have as many students pass the year end test for competency and your lesson plans are completely geared to that! I call it the "dumbing down" of America. The majority of the students are forced backwards to make up for a handful who need extra attention.

I'd also like to touch base on one other thing.

For the parents that say " I try... and I do this, this, and this, but my kid is just bad... they do what they want regardless."

yes kids will be kids... and yes we all did things our parents would not like BUT...

I NEVER did a lot of things I wanted to.. or my friends did.. why?

2 things

Respect and Fear.

My parents MADE me respect them and MADE me fear them.. a healthy fear. I was so afraid of disapointing them .... why don't parents do that anymore? Yes a lot of it has to do with parents being younger/teenageers.. but I have seen some who do quite a good job. But... I really think it goes back a generation where those teenagers where never taught how to respect and live correctly.. the worlds going to hell... and I am ridin in the handbasket...

phew.

Sera (anya)

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"big brother" aka George Bush. {{giggles}}

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No I'm pretty sure that's "Bill Gates" Smiles at heycarrieanna

Nah ... not Bill Gates, Sbbe ... he uses his power for good! LOL

About the parents and discipline ... my dad only had to look at me over his glasses and I knew I had crossed "the" line and if I didn't immediately apologize and retreat, he would get the belt out and it would be a fast trip to the bathroom for some hands-on discipline. Same with my mom ... she had this ruler she would use on the back of my thighs for discipline. I have a lot of siblings (God bless the Catholic Church) and they feel the same way I do -- fear the rod!!!

Hmmmmm maybe all that punishment and discipline explains my submissive side ... lol

Smiles at heycarrieanne.
I had good Catholic parents too. I'm pretty sure it's part of my submissive persona too. That and the book shelf next to my bedroom door that held some of dad’s S&M books. Giggle.
We spanked and I'm very happy with how our kids turned out but we always made them vocalize why they were being punished and then after held them and told them we loved them. We also had a cut off age for spanking. I really believe that if you don't have the child trained by 10 you might as well forget it.

Lucky you ... I got the belt from my dad until my Confirmation (and apparently became a young woman) and my mom did the discipline after that until I was a senior in high school!!!

Can't say I'm too impressed with all those spanking stories...while I like the idea now, I'm sure I'd have hated my parents for making me go through something that humiliating as a child - and even more so as a teenager!! We never had any physical discipline at home, not even when I was younger and my Dad was still alive - it was never an option. My parents believed in going the longer route and talk talk talk about what was going on and I'm glad they did. And I don't think my sister or myself turned out to be lacking respect for our parents or anybody else...so why turn to physical punishment with children?

I'm sorry if I'm highjacking this thread...just felt compelled to react to this and at least put an alternative point of view in here. No offence taken if you tell me to open my own thread...;)

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We never had any physical discipline at home, not even when I was younger

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We stopped spanking at 12 years. We also spanked, not beat. We were really careful about making it private. Both our children have told me they will spank when they have children so I don't think they found it a humiliation.

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My parents believed in going the longer route and talk talk talk about what was going on and I'm glad they did.

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We did both. Talk, Spank (if called for) then talk more. We were always considered very strict, but all the kids wanted to come to our house. Hummmm could it be because we let kids be kids and set very clear limits?

Oh, I'm sure you made it a welcome home for both your children and their friends, no doubt about that. I just can't help but wonder whether anything would have been different if there hadn't been any spanking? It's more of a belief thing about me, I guess...I just don't believe in physical punishment - unless it's me who's asking for it! ;)

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I guess...I just don't believe in physical punishment - unless it's me who's asking for it!

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Giggle
I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I don't believe in it outside the parents. But I believe it's a very effective tool. It's not for every instance, but I found it effective in our lives. It didn't happen everyday, but in the young years it happened often.
I believe in children you have to do what you and your partner are comfortable with. Love them with all your heart and devote your life to them till they are grown.
Smiles

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I believe in children you have to do what you and your partner are comfortable with. Love them with all your heart and devote your life to them till they are grown.

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Now that I can subscribe to. :)

Hi having read all the threads I couldn't agree more with you. I have two children and they believe that I am really hard on them because i don't let them wear, do or say the things that their friends are. I find alot of the problems now are the parents alot of parents really don't care any more. For example I live near a bus stop and the other day a small boy waiting for the bus with his mum was running all over our gardens. I went out to ask him to stop as its private property and I don't want my garden to get wrecked and the mum told me to Fuck Off before she came and knocked my block off. Now sorry if that was my kid I'd have slapped him before anyone could come and have a go and if they did I'd have slapped him harder for not doing as he was told and respecting peoples property no matter what the age. I really think it is about time that parents take responsability for their children otherwise I really don't want to see the world in the comming generations.

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Originally Posted by ljd

I really think it is about time that parents take responsability for their children otherwise I really don't want to see the world in the comming generations.

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Amen to that.

I hate to disagree with Silke but, as I stated somewhere earlier in this thread I think, I believe all this disrespect is directly proportional to the lack of corporal punishment. Spare the rod, spoil the child is beginning to ring more and more true every day. I didn't beat my kids, only spanked them. They hated it then. It didn't happen all that often but it was always on the table as an option if they didn't behave. I guess I never will understand what the threat of talking does to try to discipline a child.

My father would beat my ass when I needed it, in his opinion. It didn't stop me from loving and respecting him. Actually quite the contrary took place. Amazing how little your parents know when you're young. The older I got, the more I actually thought my parents were doing things for my own good. Just my opinion.

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I hate to disagree with Silke but, as I stated somewhere earlier in this thread I think, I believe all this disrespect is directly proportional to the lack of corporal punishment. Spare the rod, spoil the child is beginning to ring more and more true every day. I didn't beat my kids, only spanked them. They hated it then. It didn't happen all that often but it was always on the table as an option if they didn't behave. I guess I never will understand what the threat of talking does to try to discipline a child.

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No problem with disagreement whatsoever, Warbaby - I like open discussions and they'd be pointless if we all subscribed to the same position. :)

It's not the threat of 'talking' that got me in line eventually...it was knowing that I have disappointed my parents. There were clear rules put up for us kids and if we went against them we knew that we overstepped a line and the trust placed in us was damaged. We had to face consequences then - and those consequences were directly associated with where we had fucked up. Most of the time the privileges we had earned were taken away or restricted for a certain time, until we had proved worthy of them again and showed responsibility.

I think if the basic values are lived in a family, the children will adopt them. There were never any serious mishaps with me or my sister, we pretty well behaved kids and teenagers...and that didn't come through corporal punishment, but through discussing values and arguing different points of view with our parents. And believe me, the 'threat' of having disappointed my parents was stronger than any fear or respect of a spanking could ever have been. Maybe we were just good children and didn't need the extra punishment? I don't think so.

By the way - it's still the same with me today, the same pattern is at work in my BDSM life. I'm way more affected by knowing I disappointed my Master, having to confess and talk about it, finding ways to put things right again, promising to never do it again and mean it....the physical punishment is a good point to emphasize this and drive the message home - but even without it, the talk alone is what gets me and motivates me to do my best in the future...it's NOT the fear of punishment!

Nice one Silke- yes, being walloped by the old man never helped me any.

Consistency is what works IMO & being disappointed or pleased appropriately.


Tojo

There were rules in my home when I was growing up and you were given three strikes (gotta love a dad who loved baseball) and when you were out ... you got the belt. End of story! LOL What is so funny about it is that he hated my grandpa because of his strict discipline and there he was--giving it to us kids. As we were growing up, rules and responsibilities were given to each of us depending on our age. Thanks to my mom's upbringing in Girl Scouts (and no doubt the number of children she had), there was what she called a "caper chart" with each our names and our duties and they were marked off every night. I sure as hell learned to keep my portion of my room clean and neat, I did my chores, and I didn't fuck up a lot. It also made me more organized in college and probably why I went into business management. I have four brothers and three sisters and we are all organized!

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Originally Posted by Silke

Maybe we were just good children and didn't need the extra punishment? I don't think so.

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I think you may have been better than you think. My kids were not bad children either. It was just my way of enforcing discipline and it too worked. In my opinion the laws in the states today are so fucked up parents are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They can get in trouble for using force to enforce discipline and on the other hand they can get in trouble if their kids don't obey the laws of the land.

My son once said jokingly that if he were growing up today he would have my ass in court for child abuse. I told him he would only have been able to it once. Neither one of us meant what we said. I believe it was just his way of saying thanks for the way he turned out. Today he is very successful with a beautiful family. And so too are my other kids. I followed my father's example of raising kids and I'm thankful I did.

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I think you may have been better than you think. My kids were not bad children either. It was just my way of enforcing discipline and it too worked.

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Yeah, seems like both of our family stories had a happy ending and I'm glad for that. :) Whether it's just the children who were strong enough or whether it was a 'good' way to raise children and give them good a solid foundation from? Well, I guess it's a question that only the children can answer later in life...and I'm willing to say that it might depend on the temperament and nature of the child, too. First of all because wilder children might simply be calling for more punishment or be too much for inexperienced parents.....and second, because it probably depends on psychological traits how the children will cope with corporal punishment.

I'm never going to become a fan of using physical force with children, but as long as it's coupled with love, talk and care (and doesn't go further than a spanking *shudders*), I'd never report parents for this - it's not abuse to me, yet. But believe me, I've seen children break through this and I've seen them become aggressive towards others or themselves...and I wouldn't want to risk this to be honest. It might work out well most of the time, but certainly not all the time.

Set firm rules, be consequential when they're broken, praise praise praise children when they're being their best and offer them all the love and care you have in your heart - to me that's all it takes, no physical force necessary. And I honestly think that a lot of parents who DO use corporal punishment (not talking about you guys in this thread!!) use it because they don't know a better way or can't cope at this point. And what an example does that set for children? If you don't know what else to say or do - just hit! I don't want more people like this in the world...

Again - this is a more general observation and not something I think y'all are guilty of. Just trying to show a different side that I've witnessed.

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Originally Posted by Silke

It might work out well most of the time, but certainly not all the time.

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Wouldn't that be the same case with any method?:)

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Wouldn't that be the same case with any method?

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Yup, it would...but at least the risk of doing extra damage isn't there. :)

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Originally Posted by Silke

Yup, it would...but at least the risk of doing extra damage isn't there. :)

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My way of thinking says that too much permissiveness and leniency in only talking runs the risk of other damages. A child raise this way could and often does believe he can do anything he wants and get away with it. That to my way of thinking is also damage.:)

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My way of thinking says that too much permissiveness and leniency in only talking runs the risk of other damages. A child raise this way could and often does believe he can do anything he wants and get away with it. That to my way of thinking is also damage.

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Yes, I agree if we're talking about too much permissiveness and leniency. That however was not my point. I'm all for setting boundaries and having the child face consequences when overstepping the line. I just disagree on the means to use for punishment or discipline. There's other ways than physical punishment, like taking away privileges for a certain amount of time, having the child apologize and find a way to make up for whatever happened...the possibilities are endless. And I've always found that punishment should be linked directly to the situation that went bad - I'm not sure that's possible with a spanking. ;)

I think it's important to remember that all parents just do their best with whatever information they have available.

Back when I was a kid it was seen as the 'done thing' to chastise- even in public. The generation before me was brought up probably more brutally.

A relatively short time ago an adult could give a kid he didn't know a 'kick in the pants' for unruly behaviour, while nowadays you'd go to jail for it.

After hearing some of the stories I've heard whilst counselling men, about abuse I'm very tempted to say all forms of physical punishment are wrong. That's just my opinion though, all kids & all parents are different.

Me, I've never had any & probably never will. I've made enough mistakes with my girls! :confused:

Now kiss & make up you two....:rolleyes:

Tojo

*hugs Warbaby*...didn't realize we needed to make up, though, lol. We can agree to disagree any time. ;)

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Originally Posted by Silke

Yes, I agree if we're talking about too much permissiveness and leniency. That however was not my point. I'm all for setting boundaries and having the child face consequences when overstepping the line. I just disagree on the means to use for punishment or discipline. There's other ways than physical punishment, like taking away privileges for a certain amount of time, having the child apologize and find a way to make up for whatever happened...the possibilities are endless. And I've always found that punishment should be linked directly to the situation that went bad - I'm not sure that's possible with a spanking. ;)

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We are never going to even find medium ground here because I disagree with most everything you say because of examples I have seen over the years. I'm just going to leave it at hopefully we can agree to disagree. Still love ya Silke. :bigkiss:

How's that Tojo?