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What exactly is it? i have been to other groups and asked the same question and i still don't understand, so please excuse my ignorance but i need to ask again. :confused:
i always got these long winded, over explained and convoluted answers, which always made me sit there and go 'HUH?!!'.
So, could someone please explain it to me! LOL!
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
well to keep it simple, for me it is when I reach of level of contentment within a scene where I forget about everything around me other then me and Master.
Hi Frankee,
Chattel is pretty much on the mark with her words. However, here is a simple definition from Wikipedia:
Subspace: A "natural high" that a sub gets during a scene or when being controlled.
It is a simplified but accurate. Click here for more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspace_%28BDSM%29
Thank you chattel and nikita. i appreciate you both taking the time.
Now...you see, these explanations i get lol.
Thanks again!
Proud sub Mistress Cindy:rose:
I like KISS - not the group either...
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
No I'm not calling anyone stupid
LMAO!!!
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
Ah another happy customer- onya guys. :wave:
So true about the long winded & convoluted answers on some forums- here you hear it like it is.
Hope you spend lots of time in your very own 'subspace' Frankie.
Tojo
Thank You Tojo
i'm looking forward to it!!!:)
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
Here is a good article on subspace
What exactly is "subspace" and ... what is it not?
By: Hans Meijer - http://www.powerotics.com
Note: The author is the chairman of the POWERotics Foundation, an
organisation dedicated to providing reliable information to and about the
BDSM community. This article is a team effort by the POWERotics team and
includes input from medical professionals and psychologists. In fact, this
is a "summary" of several much more in depth articles.
"Subspace".
This word we use to describe the psychological (mental) and phsysical state
the submissive can - but does not (always) have to - reach as a result of
BDSM interaction. On the Internet especially you will a lot of stories and
articles about "subspace". Most of these unfortunately got it deadwrong.
This leads to a lot of confusion. For example "subspace" and orgasm are
often mixed up.
Science is still a long way away from fully understanding "subspace". That's
no big surprise, since very little - actually hardly any - coherent
scientific research has been done in this area. However, we do know more
than enough to be able to do away with many of the misconceptions and
misunderstandings.
Man or woman?
------------
There is a big difference between the physiological (especially
bio-chemical) reactions in the male and female body. As a result, male
"subspace" is incomparable to female "subspace". Most importantly, female
"subspace" usually lasts a lot longer. The explanation for this is in the
fact that the male ejaculation (which is not necessarily always the same as
an orgasm) puts an end to quite a lot of biochemical processes and - as a
result - to subspace. On top of this, female sexuality in general is very
different from male sexuality. And there is
of course a major difference in the way, men and women deal with emotions.
Orgasm or "subspace"
--------------------
Quite a few submissive women confuse orgasm, or even strong (sexual)
arousal, with "subspace" - simply because they have no personal experience
with orgasms. Global scientific research tells us that - unfortunately -
probably as much as one out of every three adult women has never experienced
an orgasm. There is no reason to assume these figures any different within
the BDSM community. In other words, probably one out of each three
submissive women does not know what an orgasm is, hence cannot distinguish
the differences between orgasm and subspace and is likely to mistake one for
the other.
Besides, there are different forms of orgasm (different orgasms, as some
prefer to say).
One thing we do know: having an orgasm while in "subspace" is biologically
next to impossible!
This is because the hormonal chain of events - leading to subspace - is
quite different from the one - leading to an orgasm. In the early stages of
the route to both "subspace" and orgasm these chains of events are quite
similar. But at some point along the way the body has to make a choice:
either go for orgasm, or go for subspace. One excludes the other. In other
words, whenever a submissive tells you he or she "was cumminglike there is
no tomorrow" that is exactly what has been happening. But, no more than
that. There is nothing wrong with an orgasm. On the contrary in fact. But it
just isn't "subspace".
The tall stories
----------------
The "Stages of Subspace" - as described on many Internet sites - do not
exist!
What has happened is that somebody, somewhere took the description of the
stages of the female orgasm, changed and twisted the wording a bit and
thought it looked good. Fact of the matter is, subspace does not work like
that at all.
Actually, while "subspace' is a state of being that develops gradually
during its early stages, it is not a neatly ordered, gradual, "phased"
development at all. The best comparison is to look at it as water, building
up behind a dam. At some point the dam will break under the waterpressure
and the next thing you know "all hell breaks loose". That is exactly, what
happens during the development of subspace.
Besides, the "road to subspace" is a different one all the time and probably
every time. Impulses and responses can change per day or even per hour. This
is because your body is receptive to all sorts of impulses that have an
influence on hormone production. This can be stress, anxiety, uncertainty,
fever or the effects of alcohol, tobacco, nutrition, medication or drugs for
example or, in the female body, the influences the monthly cycle, possible
pregnancy and menopause.
So what exactly is "subspace"?
-----------------------------
"Subspace" is a form of trance. Trance in its essence is a state of being,
different from your "normal" state of being. During trance your mind
excludes most of its input and concentrates on just one or only very few
impulses, completely disregarding all others. There are many ways in which a
trance can be induced. Prolongued dancing for example, or hunger, prolonged
physical activity. Hypothermia, recreational drugs, high fever, lack of
nutrition, dehydration AND BDSM-activity all can induce trance. Just like
repeated physical activity (such as jumping from one leg on another for a
long time - a modern technique used by psychologists).
Trance is the result of hormonal activity. Hormones are substances in your
body, responsible for communication between the brain and the cortex and the
rest of the body ("blink your eye" is the result of a mini hormone cocktail.
So is "pull muscle" or ..... "fall in love"). Everything your body does (or
does not) is the result of these usually complex hormone cocktails. Hormones
are being read by "receptors" and the availabilty and functionality of these
receptors is genetically determined. That is why a hormonal reaction is not
identical in different people.
For "subspace" a group of hormones, called "peptides" is important. Peptides
are amino acids. Many look like morphine and have attributes, that can be
compared to morphine. And yes - although natural - they ARE (to some extent)
addictive! For subspace ENDORPHINS - a group of such peptides - are an
important ingredient.
Where does it start?
-------------------
Both "subspace" and sexual arroussal start with ADRENALINE.
Actually, adrenaline is an incorrect name, since it assumes it is one
hormone. Actually, it is a combination of two hormones: adrenaline (in
biochemical terms epineprin) and noradrenaline (norepinephrin). These twins
are being produced simultanuously, but they serve different
purposes. Adrenaline - among many other things - makes certain that extra
nutrients (sugars especially) are transported to the muscles,
while noradrenaline (again among many other things) is responsible for
inducing vascular contraction, so the vains help the heart to pump blood
through the body faster.
You could say the adrenaline twins are your body's first response team. As
soon as anything happens that is different from what was - at that moment in
time - the normal situation, the body starts to produce adrenaline. This
happens in a split second and it brings the body to a "higher state of
alert". Ready to fight, run, jump out of the way of a passing truck or ...
to enter into an argument for example. Your senses are wide open,
information transport through the body increases and speeds up, muscles
contract, the heartrate heightens and muscles are being filled with whatever
"fast food" is available. And these are only a few of the processes, induced
by the adrenaline twins. Besides adrenaline is one of your natural
painkillers.
When your body decides it is time to produce adrenaline it does so, based on
the principle: shoot first - ask questions later. In other words, adrenaline
production is well under way before the brain has had a chance to analyse
the situation. The reason for this is that the situation may call for a
reflex action. And that is what you want. You don't want your brain to go
like; "Wow, that's a truck coming at me, what shall we do about that?" No,
hopefully you probably got yourself out of the way before you even realized
the thing was a truck. That is a reflex and the result of adrenaline.
The "kick"
----------
Back to "subspace".
Adrenaline production started well before you conciously figured out you
were getting aroused. As soon as the brain notices the higher adrenaline
concentrations have nothing to do with anything that requires an immediate
reaction it has two options. It can either step down from the "red alert"
phase and tell your body to go into "business as usual" mode. Or - if the
impulse that triggered the increased adrenaline production persists without
presenting any danger or other alarming situation - it may decide to
continue production. Why? Because the brain like adrenaline.
The adrenaline twins can give your a "kick" (or a "high" as some like to
call it). It's the same "kick" you get from passing an exam, a bungy jump or
a dive in the pool on a steamy hot day for example. In short, the "YES!"
feeling. Your body can produce increased adrenaline levels for about half an
hour. Oh, by the way, women can enjoy adrenaline somewhat longer than men,
usually.
FOR MANY PEOPLE INTO BDSM ....... THIS IS IT!
Nothing wrong with that. An adrenaline high as such can be great fun, but
...... it's got nothing to do with "subspace". It is an adrenaline kick.
Fun, exciting, addictive is some way. In other words, from anything like a
15 to 30 minutes "quicky" you don't enter "subspace", but you probably will
get an adrenaline high. Oh, what most dominants describe as their "domspace"
is very likely to be an adrenaline high as well.
This provides us with one clear, recognisable and physical insight in the
different ways, people experience BDSM and it explains part of the different
forms of BDSM. Those who are after the adrenaline high do just that and
that's fine. But it is physically and mentally very different from what we
are going to talk about below. And the two cannot (and should not) be
compared. It's like baseball and football. Both sports revolve around a ball
and are played by teams in a stadium. But that is where the comparison ends.
Which doesn't mean that baseball players are better or lesser sports people
than footballplayers. They're just different and their abilities - if at all
- should be compared to others in their own league.
Endorphins
----------
The road to "subspace" is like a ladder. You go from one step to the next.
Adrenaline is the first step. The next one brings us to a different - much
larger - group of hormones: ENDORPHINS. One important note: there are other
endorphin highs (such as the "runners' high"). They are, although similar,
very different from what we call "subspace".
Endorphins are peptides too. They are a morphine-like group of substances
(so far science has identified 39 different ones), that are relatively new
to scientists. They were identified in the mid 1970s and are called
endorphins since 1975. In very unscientific words they are known as "mood
hormones", since they are responsible for our moods, whichever one.
Regardless if you cry, laugh, get angry, happy, or sad or just bored ....
all that is triggered by endorphins. They are produced in countless
different "cocktails" and, just like adrenaline, work as a
natural painkiller as well. They are also responsible for car- and
airsickness and vomiting in general.
To understand the "road to subspace" the following is important. Your body
HAS to produce adrenaline before it starts to produce endorphins and the
endorphins - that contribute to "subspace" a- re only first produced after
some 20 to 30 minutes. In fact they are the "next shift". Within the
endorphins group there are some hormones we call "enkephalins". These do to
cortex what endorphins do to the brain to create "subspace" and both need to
be present.
All hormones have a chemically incomplete "forerunner", but for reasons of
clarity and simplicity we will skip these.
To fully explain "subspace" science still lacks a lot of data. Too many to
pinpoint and explain the process precisely. But we do know quite a bit. One
important thing to understand "subspace" is the recent discovery of
different ways, in which the brain releases endorphins. Besides the normal
"through the proper channels" way (via glands and the nervous system) there
also appear to be small, apparently uncontrolled fountain like releases on
the outside of the brain. These have been photographed and filmed. These
"endorphin fountains" occur on specific occasions. Most parents will have
seen their young kid simply staring at a ball or some object without moving
or responding, but just looking at it - apparently fascinated by its color
or shape. That is when endorphin fountains occur. Why they do, science does
not know yet. But we do know these fountains are connected to the kind of
emotional and physical responses, we call "subspace" in terms of BDSM. These
endorphin fountains also seem to induce the "deer in the headlight"
behavior. That is not fear, but fascination. A probably more familiar
similar reaction are the LSD-trips from the hippie days.
Are we going to take a left turn, or a right?
--------------------------------------------
Here we reach a crucial junction. Once the endorphins production gets well
underway, there is a choice to make: are we "going into subspace" or will it
be an orgasm today? Remember, one excludes the other. No one knows exactly
how or why this choice is being made but - remember, hormone receptors are
genetically determined - at least some of that has to be in the genetic code
somewhere.
So, why is there such a crucial choice? Well, in order to follow the
hormonal route to an orgasm the body now will have to start to produce a
group of hormones called GnRH. These will eventually trigger the production
of yet another hormone (genadotropine), which induces the production and
release of steroids (the "sex" hormones). As soon as the GnRH production
starts the endorphins production slows down and finally stops. In other
words: no "fountains" - no "subspace".
Up to this point your body has produced quite a lot of these "mood hormones"
and that is responsible for the feelings of bonding, attachment, affection,
security and love. This makes sense, since these emotions - in females
especially - are a necessity for the orgasm. This is what some people
describe as "floating". No, that is not one of "stages of subspace".
Actually that is pretty general, normal human behavior and quite necessary.
So, here is again a crucial difference in BDSM-experience - physically and
mentally recognisable: if there now will be an orgasm, that is what you go
for. And, orgasms are NICE! And very good to have. But ...... THEY ARE NOT
"SUBSPACE". The bonding and affection emotions however, can be a first step
towards it.
Hallucination, trance and different levels of awareness
-------------------------------------------------------
Now is where we can see the fundamental differences between "subspace" and
other BDSM-experiences (driven by other motives). If and when the body
decides not to go for the orgasm, but instead to go for "subspace" we are
getting to the "deer in the headlights". And also the point where the dam
breaks.
If endorphins production continues - remember, we still do not know exactly
why - trance and light forms of hallucination occur. THAT is "subspace"!
Someone "in subspace" is easy to recognise from the outside. They are no
longer able to drive a car, or even a bike. They seem silent, absentminded,
slow responding, uninterested. In other words "not really here". That again
is not the same as the warm, glowy, dreamy feeling after an orgasm. Somebody
"in subspace" is "not on this planet", so to speak.
"Subspace" is dangerous in some ways. People "in subspace" have very
different levels of perception and awareness. They will see a traffic light
as interesting colors that changes all the time. They do NOT see it as a
warning signal. To them, a house is a fascinating stack of bricks with
intriguing patterns - NOT something people actually live in. If you would
slit the throat of someone "in subspace" they'd probably tell you they'd
consider that an interesting and fascinating experience. They do NOT
recognise the life threatening situation. Someone "in subspace" is
INTOXICATED! Intoxicated as in: under influence of drugs.
If you have ever been given morphine for medical reason you will know that
morphine creates a colorful, happy, peaceful world without fear or pain or
discomfort. Endorphins in high concentrations create EXACTLY THAT EFFECT.
SOMEONE IN "SUBSPACE" CAN BE A DANGER TO HIM OR HERSELF!
"Subspace" can last for anything from several hours to several days. For the
duration of "subspace" reflexes slow down severely (this is the
result of the slightly intoxicating effects of enkephalins on the cortex)
and much of normal, everyday logic no longer works. Someone in
subspace cannot make responsible, consensual decisions.
EVERYTHING THAT TRUE FOR PEOPLE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL, RECREATIONAL
DRUGS OR MEDICATION IS TRUE FOR PEOPLE "IN SUBSPACE".
As said, subspace is easy to spot from the outside. Pupils widen, responses
slow down, appear illogical or simply do not occur. Food and
sustenance is no longer important, people hear you, but do not understand
you, they cannot find the right words and some submissives
even stop breathing temporarily. Someone "in subspace" - as far as physical
behavior and signals are concerned - is very similar to
someone, under the influence of recreational drugs. The trance itself is
important to them, feeds them and leads them. Nothing else matters and
that - for example - includes sexual arroussal. Colours, sounds, scents are
individual, seemingly incoherent experiences. if you have never been
here, you haven't been "in subpace" (yet). And that's fine. it is just that
"subspace" is very different from everything else.
Conclusions:
-----------
There are no "stages of subspace". There are however very different ways in
which people experience and response to BDSM-activity. Much of that is
biochemically determined.
Orgasm and "subspace" are two different, biochemically largely incompatible
experiences.
Different biochemical reactions create different experiences (not levels of
experience!). One is not better than the other. They are just different. It
is important to understand these differences, because the wants and needs
are different.
"Subspace" is a form of trance and should be dealt with accordingly.
"Subspace" is not without risk.
I'm glad Sissy Pita posted her artical ....I was going to go hunting for mine.....
Hi Pita
Thank you so much for the article and taking the time to post it,i really apprecitate it, it was very informative! Alot to think about.
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
Just for the record - I am not going to be volunteering to submit to a scientist investigating, measuring or recording anything whilst I am in sub space. Sorry to any hopeful PhD student out there....Quote:
Originally Posted by His_pita
cariad
if anyone here has experienced 'subspace? What do you remember from it and if you do remember anything, did you enjoy it?
Is it something that you and your Dominant strive for or do you believe that it is something that just happens to you?
Sorry about all the questions....it's starting to sound like the Spanish Inquisition, lol.
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
I'll ask an expert for you Frankie- should be able to post her reply tomorrow night my time. Sadly I've never been with her at the time....but she's probably been there.
Tojo
chattel69 keeping with your KISS theory. I think you have done a great job in explaining it. Your explanation is simple but also directly to the point.:bondage:Quote:
Originally Posted by chattel69
Thanks, Warbaby your going to make me blush and not in a good way...:P
I have reached subspace a couple times and it is usually during a good flogging. I just feel like i'm floating, all I feel is the lashing against my skin when I return, my legs are wobbly and usually recovering from a climax
Thank You so much Tojo, i greatly appreciate You taking the time to get me the info. You're a Prince among Men:)
Thank You for the input chattel, i'm grateful that you're taking the time to educate a newbie lol.
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
[QUOTE=frankeeThank You for the input chattel, i'm grateful that you're taking the time to educate a newbie lol.
[/QUOTE]
That's what I've found that a lot of these good people do here. It is what makes this site so great.:wave:
I have entered subspace a fair few times, i have to say it is a wondrous feeling, its when my mind stops resisting, and accepts everything my master submits me too, i feel a relaxing of mind and body, and my mind drifts away, lost in the experience, pleasure and pain truly intermingled inside my brain, and a real calm overtakes me, while at same time i can reach a level of pleasure unobtainable any other way, i find it hard to orgasm normally, but once i reach this place i can have strong orgasms. :D
I agree Warbaby, this is an awesome place!!! Everybody has been so welcoming and helpful:)
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avralivia
That is almost exactly my experience, I would only add that I have complete focus on my master at such times, to the utter exclusion of my own self awareness. I do not normally have any difficulty in having orgams, but find on my way up to sub space it is quite impossible, but once there normal service is resumed.
cariad
Thanks cariad and Avralivia, i appreciate both of you sharing your experiences.
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
Well I asked my friend, 'What is subspace?' Here's her reply direct from IM, complete with inciteful comments from Tojo.....
She says:
that's a hard one to describe really, i think it's different for everyone
Tojo says:
i thought if anyone could describe it you could
She says:
for me it's just about totally being immersed in the role, with no reservations or questions or anything
Tojo says:
where nothing else matters?
She says:
it comes with complete trust and respect for the other person
She says:
yes, you are just in that moment, totally and completely, and you don't think about anything else at all
Tojo says:
right, yeah that's what I would have thought
She says:
yes but there are also physical things as well i believe...i remember that i couldn't even remember details afterwards because i was just so into each and every moment...now i am speaking specifically about xxxx in this regard, i don't think i have ever gotten closer with anyone else to subspace
Only the names have been changed.
Hope that helps- she's a sub who's done some stuff. Not with me yet, but maybe someday....:cool:
Tojo
Thanks Tojo, i appreciate You passing along Your friend's experience to me. i hope other's post about their experiences as well. i find it really fascinating!
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
yes I know what you mean, i become focused on obeying completely, and all that matters is pleasing master. Its like any other thoughts are completely gone and all that you are is masters plaything and all that u feel is him, and all that you see is him, and every second is like its suspended in space and time and u just exist as a sub.Quote:
Originally Posted by cariad(CC)
I do not think it is that different for everybody – it seems that different people are tying to describe similar experience. After all, it does have physical basis.
The problem is – it is almost impossible to describe.
From my experience: heady, airy, calm yet intensive and very focusing. Intensity of some sensations increases dramatically while others diminish to insignificance. For example I can take more pain (and it sensation changes) but too much pain will snap me out of it.
As to that article – I do not know if it is true that females go ‘under; (or ‘over’ or ‘up’) much deeper and more fully than males … but my self awareness rarely drops to zero. Certainly not to a point where I would ‘happily allow my throat cut’.
In fact I would venture to say that my self awareness increases but self changes. If it makes any sense.
That's interesting! Even though I've never experienced sub space, I've been in a similar state a few times before while being hypnotised. Could it be that it's just another trance phenomenon? The characteristics are much the same: change of focus, heightened awareness (although that's usually only on very select feelings, body parts, thoughts etc), different reaction to pain...the list is endless. It would also explain why it's so hard to describe once you come off it, why regular rhythm (as in flogging) does seem to induce it, that the experience is different for most people. Well, basically the whole list comes to mind, lol.Quote:
I do not think it is that different for everybody – it seems that different people are tying to describe similar experience. After all, it does have physical basis.
The problem is – it is almost impossible to describe.
From my experience: heady, airy, calm yet intensive and very focusing. Intensity of some sensations increases dramatically while others diminish to insignificance. For example I can take more pain (and it sensation changes) but too much pain will snap me out of it.
As to that article – I do not know if it is true that females go ‘under; (or ‘over’ or ‘up’) much deeper and more fully than males … but my self awareness rarely drops to zero. Certainly not to a point where I would ‘happily allow my throat cut’.
In fact I would venture to say that my self awareness increases but self changes. If it makes any sense.
If it IS a trance phenomenon, it makes me wonder whether it can be voluntarily induced through hypnosis.....veeeeery cool thought!! Any hypnotists among you? :D
it's no mystery to me..... when i loose all sense of time and let go of everything... i am totally wrapped up in my Dom's needs and my feelings... it is warm, it is comfortable (even when it's really not, he he) and i just "let go". no responsibilty!
frankee,
Love your new Avatar.:cool:
Thanks Warbaby!! i love it too!!! Makes me feel tingly when i see it *blushing*, hope it gives my Mistress an idea or two when i see Her.;)
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose:
An interesting hypothesis. I have experienced both and there is certainly a similarity between the states, but in my experience they are significantly different. As you say they are hard to explain, and perhaps even harder to compare, but hopefully and attempt is better than nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silke
When I have been hypnotised I have retained a level of independent thought and self awareness than I have when I am in sub space and sub space has something which is something intensely satisfying, at least to submissive me, which is totally missing in hypnosis.
cariad
Yeah, I think I know what you mean...and yes, I think it really is hard to explain or compare the states. I still think the basic phenomenon is the same, it's just a different context. There's a huge variety of different trance states that can be achieved through hypnosis - all of which have certain similarities but the experience itself can be completely different. A hypnotist I worked with a lot during my own training pretty much said that you can get into every state you have ever experienced in your life using hypnosis...and even go beyond that if you have someone to guide you. I have to say I agree from what I've tried out so far.Quote:
When I have been hypnotised I have retained a level of independent thought and self awareness than I have when I am in sub space and sub space has something which is something intensely satisfying, at least to submissive me, which is totally missing in hypnosis.
Imagine this - you have someone who has experienced sub space before and knows how he/she got there. Now, if that person induces a sufficient trance state in you and takes you through his own experience....don't you think you might end up feeling something at least remotely similar?
'k...maybe I should start my own thread about this, lol. I have a tendency to highjack threads recently. Sorry!!! ;)
Silke,
hijack away, lol! i love reading about everybody's experiences and their point of view. i'm here to learn especially from the more experienced subbies, so please continue on in this thread. As the newbie i get the benefit of everybody else's experiences.
i found your last post very interesting and insightful:) .
Here is another question for you- Have you always achieved sub space or is it once in awhile? Do you strive to achieve it?
Ok, so that was two questions but i find this topic so interesting with many layers.
So everybody, humour me and indulge me a little and answer my questions, lmao!
i soooooooo love this place, full of awesome people!!
frankee
Proud sub of Mistress Cindy:rose: