I'm sorry if my jibes about America were taken to heart: they were intentionally provocative, to keep the debate lively, but I was not intending to insult the USA or Americans at all. I felt Mr Fixit would stand up to me whatever I said. Her government (past and present) is a different matter.

And I am quite willing to admit that Britain has committed more and worse atrocities than USA has. Our imperial history has been shameful in many respects, and our present government is worse than yours, being its lapdog.

However, the debate/argument about torture is an important one, whatever your point of view (unless you have no viewpoint) and I know that nothing anyone says is likely to change anyone else's viewpoint. But at least, I will understand a bit more about why I believe what I do if I have to state my reasons to someone who disagrees with me, and thereby find out where my opinions are flawed. And maybe others will gain similar insights.

Mr Fixit, stripedangel: if I have been out of line, I apologise. I was enjoying the "disagreement".