the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" in the muslims holly book (quran)

[domaster]

the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" & the The birth of Christ in the muslims holly book (quran)
ther is all Chapter 19
The Holy Quran : Chapter 19

http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran19.html

interesting story

[Thorne]

Interesting? Silly is more like it. It's even sillier than the biblical version, and that takes some doing.

019.008 He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"

Sounds to me like an impotent old man trying to explain his pregnant wife. There are other, more realistic, explanations.

019.016 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

Yeah, they used to do that here in the states, too. Send the pregnant teenager to live with family somewhere, so the neighbors won't know she got pregnant. Of course, nobody would claim that the baby was conceived miraculously. But I'm quite sure at least one of the parents would be stomping around, muttering, "Jesus H. Christ, how could she do this to me!"

[domaster]

the Silly thing when you say that about the holly books Respect the feelings of the believers Please

& the "old man" its a Messenger of God "Zakariya - Peace be upon him"
& god is not responsible for man Mistakes . He's here to hear and see and judge the Day of Judgement --- not Jesus who make the teenage pregnant It is the responsibility of parents Thank you for participating
But this is not our subject
In the end I just wanted to share more knowledge with those who are looking for
thanks

[Thorne]

the Silly thing when you say that about the holly books Respect the feelings of the believers Please

Why? They never seem to show respect for my disbelief.

In the end I just wanted to share more knowledge with those who are looking for thanks

This is not knowledge, but superstition. It is certainly not truth.

[domaster]

This is your opinion I respect that but You can not impose on others
You do not have to tell the others what they believe or not

[denuseri]

Thorne: Alltough I didnt understand the reason for the initial post and still dont (which may be a simple matter of a language barrier at work), I have to say that its not very nice to jump all over it in such an unwelcoming belicose and demeaning manner just becuase one's beliefs differ from those expressed by the authors of the text presented in the link.

domaster: Is this post intended to initiate a dialoge between different faiths as to the story of the virgin mary and how it differs somewhat between the adhereants of Islam, Judism, Bahai, Christianity and many others?

[Thorne]

Thorne: Alltough I didnt understand the reason for the initial post and still dont (which may be a simple matter of a language barrier at work), I have to say that its not very nice to jump all over it in such an unwelcoming belicose and demeaning manner just becuase one's beliefs differ from those expressed by the authors of the text presented in the link.

The language barrier may be part of the problem, I agree. I read the story, and found it rather fractured and incomprehensible for the most part, and filled with just as much fantasy as the biblical story it's trying to deny. I'm sure that the story sounds much more appealing in the original Arabic, though I would not understand it that way. But it is still making claims that certain events actually happened without having any evidence for those claims. After all, we're talking about a book written more than 600 years after these events supposedly took place. Even the new testament is older than that! And it's all based on "revelations" from an angel? If someone today tried to make that claim they would be immediately placed into an institution! (Or maybe not! The claims made by Scientologists are even more fantastical, even more insane, and they've managed to stay out of the asylums.)

Of course, if domaster wishes to provide evidence that this particular story has any more basis in fact than the biblical story, I'd be happy to hear it.

[denuseri]

All the same is it absolutely nesseasary to be so belicose and demeaning in your critique?

Isnt it enough for you to say, I persoanlly dont agree with the work your citings validity and leave it at that? Instead of trying to jump on everyone's whose faith differs from your own...yet again and derail yet another thread with a bunch of unessesary name calling and the like?

[Thorne]

All the same is it absolutely nesseasary to be so belicose and demeaning in your critique?

Sorry. It's a profound religious experience for me.

[domaster]

Dear friends
Book Quran came down 610 after Jesus Christ
As Muslims see , that Islam, & Christianity and Judaism, its religion of God (allah) and God particularize every Nation with the Prophet
& The faith of Muslims will not be full and complete only after that they believe in all prophets as they believe in Prophet Muhammad
And to love them as they love their Prophet (in the sense that love the Prophets more than themselves)
And therefore they love the Virgin Mary and have all the love and respect and is a an example for Muslim women

It is true that the Quranic text loses the beauty and the miracle of language after translation
Of the spectrum insist all Muslims of all races to learn the Arabic language to reflect and enjoy the words of god (Allah)

And of course has come Koran story of the Virgin Mary and Christ
As did the Bible Including the predecessors of the prophets and righteous people

ps :
Please forgive me for my language
I have learned English from watching the movies & the chat rooms

[denuseri]

The language thing is just a small hurdle for us to all overcome and nothing to be ashamed of domaster.


We who are Bahai have a similar beliefs in that:

Throughout history, God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers, whose teachings guide and educate us and provide the basis for the advancement of human society.

These Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad.

Their religions come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God.

Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time.

His essential message is of unity.

He taught the oneness of God, the oneness of the human family, and the oneness of religion.

Bahá'u'lláh said, “The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens,” and that, as foretold in all the sacred scriptures of the past, now is the time for humanity to live in unity.

[Thorne]

Please forgive me for my language

There is nothing to forgive, my friend. Your command of English is far superior to my command of Arabic, or any other language, even those I actually studied.

It is true that the Quranic text loses the beauty and the miracle of language after translation

This is nice to hear for a change. Too many Christians only accept the (rather bad) King James translation of the bible. The one which was translated from the (not quite so bad) Latin version, which was translated from the (not nearly so bad) Greek version, which was translated from the (almost good) Hebrew version, and so on, and so on.

And of course has come Koran story of the Virgin Mary and Christ
As did the Bible Including the predecessors of the prophets and righteous people

But the Muslims don't accept Jesus as the Son of God, as Christians do. So which holy book are we to believe?

Not that it really matters, of course. Neither of them, in any translation, was actually written by eye-witnesses to the events described. Both claim to be the inerrant word of God. And both are notably lacking in their tolerance for people of other faiths.

I don't believe either of them.

[domaster]

ferst : Please allow me about the love that holds Muslims to Jesus Christ
thank you denuseri for Statement & And To be honest that it is the first time I hear "béhaïsme" Thank you will see in this religion

& thorne
2) for what u said about the book and translated the Bible and different belief between Muslims and Christians

But the Muslims don't accept Jesus as the Son of God, as Christians do. So which holy book are we to believe?

Not that it really matters, of course. Neither of them, in any translation, was actually written by eye-witnesses to the events described. Both claim to be the inerrant word of God. And both are notably lacking in their tolerance for people of other faiths.

I don't believe either of them.

I wish that to see the video I have found a lot of answers in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQ...&feature=share

thank you Dear friends

[Thorne]

I wish that to see the video I have found a lot of answers in

I'm not impressed. You have a young man trading in one collection of superstitions for another. You can also find videos of Muslims switching to Christianity. You can find videos of Muslims and Christians turning away from their faith to become atheists. And videos of atheists going back to religion. None of it means anything. 99% of the population of the world could believe that the world was flat. That doesn't make the Earth flat, it just makes 99% of the people wrong. 99% of the people can believe in gods. That doesn't make gods real.

If you wish to convince me that Islam, or any religion, is true you must provide evidence! Real, testable evidence. Not testimonials, not anecdotes, not lists of believers. Show me how anything you believe can be true. If your god is all powerful as you claim, that should be simple for him.

[denuseri]

I dont believe that the topic of the thread is about weather or not any given religion or belief system is better than another Thorne so much as domaster is trying to point out that muslims and christians have some common ground that is shared between them, even though I know that you so desperatly wish to deride all faiths and beliefs that are not your own, a point you have made abundantly clear.

Such hypocrisy used to astound me when coming from you too once upon a time...the man in the video is doing the very thing you yourself recomend all people to do, he has went out and studied things and decided for himself which path "he" wishes to follow to God if any.

Just as the vast majority of us who are at liberty too ourselves, even in the areas of the world in which you claim we cant, my own faith arose quite letterally from such a place.

Instead of deriding him maby you would be better served by praising him.

But keep your blindfold on, keep twisting what anyone else says to feed the fire of your bully pulpit and insulting others. It must be how you wish aethism to be portrayed I guess.



There was a point in time when not all Christans believed that Jesus was divine in and of his own right eaither btw.


Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism apparently) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.


Love thy nieghbor as thyself is a very common theme in all the majior religious ethos.


That doesnt mean kill your nieghbor if he disagrees with you.


Nor does it mean insult him if his beliefs differ from your own.


It means seek a peacful means to come to an understanding.


Fundamentalism and secularism are not part of Allah's will and they are derisive and repugnant in His eyes.


Such things derive from the evil in mens hearts that lead to misinterpetation of what other good men have written about God and His wishes where as we His creation are conserned.

[Thorne]

Such hypocrisy astounds me from you Thorne...the man in the video is doing the very thing you yourself recomend all people to do, he has went out and studied things and decided for himself which path "he" wishes to follow to God.

True, but he's basing his search on the premise that there IS a god. Without evidence. But that's beside the point, it's still a belief in something unprovable.

There was a point in time when not all Christans believed that Jesus was divine in and of his own right eaither btw.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Which only lends weight to my arguments that religions adapt to suit the people who need them, not the other way around. Which is even more evidence that these holy books are NOT the inerrant word of god.

Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.

You might want to check into the Blood Libel to see just how "tolerant" of Jews Christians have been. And look up the punishment for apostasy in Islam. Not quite so tolerant as you presume.

Love thy nieghbor as thyself is a very common theme in all the majior religious ethos.

As long as that neighbor believes as you do. It's not so clear cut otherwise.

That doesnt mean kill your nieghbor if he disagrees with you.

Again, look into the Muslim hatred of Jews, or Christian hatred of Jews. Hell, just look at some of the Christian hatred towards Muslims! And vice versa.

Nor does it mean insult him if his beliefs differ from your own.

How about when those beliefs defy logic?

It means seek a peacful means to come to an understanding.

Yes, just look how peacefully the Sunni's and Sufi's are resolving their differences.

Fundamentalism and secularism are not part of Allah's will and they are derisive and repugnant in His eyes.

Doesn't sound too tolerant to me. Don't fundamentalists count towards loving thy neighbor?

Such things derive from the evil in mens hearts and misinterpetation of what men have written about God.

Perhaps the basic problem is that there has been so much contradictory testimony written about gods.

As I have said many times, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. But if they want to post those beliefs in an open forum like this I have no problem in telling them what I think. As abrasive and annoying as you believe my posts are, I find such proselytizing to be equally abrasive and annoying.

Few people would be upset if I were to ridicule someone who posted a screed about alien bases on the far side of the moon, or unicorns raining from clear skies, or any of dozens of equally inane ideas. Why must I keep quiet about religious ideas, which I find to be just as inane as any of those others?

[Incidentally, some of the comments I've quoted above don't appear in your post, but showed up when I clicked the "Reply With Quote" button. I assume you intended to delete them, and I'm not sure why they showed up, but I decided to respond to them anyway. Perhaps a moderator could look into this issue? It can create some confusion, I'm sure.]

[denuseri]

Look Thorne Im not going to go over the whole thing all over again, in yet another thread you come off as crass and hypocritical whenever anyone in any thread so much as mentions the word religion and then after going on for days you will still refuse to recognize that your own beliefs, are just as unprovable to be right and therfor just as invalidly based on anthing but blind faith..as anyone elses in this matter.

And you seem bound and determined to ruin this thread alltogether as well.

What could be a good chance to have a thread examining commonalities between muslims and chirsitans so they could maby find some common ground..you are trying to divert into yet another aethisms hates anything thats not aethism rant...so once again..Im out, have fun with your intolerance of others and belittleing of their beliefs, I know you know full well how insulting your being too with your sophistry.

You can enjoy debating it with yourself from now on, I am done.

[domaster]

thank you Dear friends
and Thorne I think you know a lot about religions for someone who does not believe in God
I do not know if that you was a believer in God or you was searching for God because it is impossible to be an atheist and knowledgeable religion
I do not understand this thing ... you Want to prove the existence of God ...
Human born on instinct
If you think you are very distinct and very special for the rest of humanity
And you deserve to waived God just for you
To show you signs or miracles to believe in him?
well u can wait for it ... who know ...
Signs and wonders before us every day and every thing
Leading thinkers and scientists around the world, after hoping and thinking and research have recognized the inevitability of a Creator of this universe
other video maybe will hellp u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd08KIqkrZw

And I hope that your response or intolerance without anger or insults
Just conversation

[Thorne]

Thorne I think you know a lot about religions for someone who does not believe in God
I do not know if that you was a believer in God or you was searching for God because it is impossible to be an atheist and knowledgeable religion

I don't claim to know a LOT about religion, but I am learning, and the more I do learn the more secure I become in my atheism.

But why do you think it's impossible to be both an atheist and knowledgeable about religion? Most modern atheists were raised in religious homes and communities, as I was. It is through the study of our religions that we realized the fallacies of religion.

I do not understand this thing ... you Want to prove the existence of God ...

That's not quite true. I think it is as impossible to prove the existence of gods as it is impossible to prove they do NOT exist. What I ask is that you prove that your religious beliefs are true. Prove that prayer works. Prove that there is a soul. Prove that there is a heaven. We cannot even show reliable evidence that there is any kind of life after death, despite the beliefs of billions!

If you think you are very distinct and very special for the rest of humanity
And you deserve to waived God just for you
To show you signs or miracles to believe in him?

Quite the opposite. I do NOT believe that I'm special or any different than anyone else. I have, perhaps, certain talents, but lack other talents. You, I'm sure, also have certain talents, and lack some others. We are all similar, though not identical.

I suppose what I am saying, though, is that, according to your religions, God made me, which means he made me an atheist. But being an atheist I can see past the trappings of religions and ask the question, "IS there a god?" And if you ask that question without assuming that gods exist you force yourself to find evidence for that existence. And there is none.

other video maybe will hellp u

I don't have the time or the inclination to go through 40+ minutes of this, so it's fortunate that he exposes his fallacy in the very beginning. The speaker says,

We know that when a person dies ... that the spirit of the individual is brought back, and he or she hears ... their footsteps. Then two angels, who will be jet black with blue eyes, will come and sit up the individual in the grave... and ask three questions.

My question is, HOW do we know this? Who has seen this? Who has recorded it? Where is the evidence for it? And the only answers I can find say that NO ONE has seen this. So he doesn't KNOW this, he BELIEVES it. But apparently he cannot tell the difference between the two.

So, I offer you this video in return. Hitchens is a leader in the atheist community, a brilliant speaker, and far more eloquent than I can be.

And I hope that your response or intolerance without anger or insults
Just conversation

I will try. It is difficult sometimes when, as an atheist, I am constantly being called evil, or delusional, or having my position deliberately misrepresented, or being compared to Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

But you must understand that, to me, your belief systems are no different than superstitions and I will continue to consider them as such until you can show me how they are different.

[Thorne]

What could be a good chance to have a thread examining commonalities between muslims and chirsitans so they could maby find some common ground..

So you're saying that atheist should have no say in these matters? Isn't that rather ... dogmatic?

you are trying to divert into yet another aethisms hates anything thats not aethism rant.

I'm sorry that this is all you can see of my arguments. I'm not preaching hate. I'm preaching understanding. And the first thing I am trying to get people to understand is that your belief system, or domaster's, or anyone else's, is always based on the presumption that gods exist, without ever requiring evidence for that existence.

I'm sorry if you find that hateful.

[domaster]

just ask ur self
how much belief exist out there in the word
& how much atheist exist out there in the word
Majority of Humans thay are Wrong & you and Few atheist you are Right & you see Right
* till now i never Hated a Person just for hes belief Or the contrary

[Thorne]

just ask ur self
how much belief exist out there in the word
& how much atheist exist out there in the word

Irrelevant. More relevant might be, how many believers out there have really examined their religion, and how many are simply carrying on what their parents taught them?

Majority of Humans thay are Wrong & you and Few atheist you are Right & you see Right

I don't claim that anyone is right or wrong. I only claim that believers have no evidence to support their position. The atheist position is the default: if there is no evidence for gods, there is no reason to postulate the existence of gods.

* till now i never Hated a Person just for hes belief Or the contrary

Till now? I hope that doesn't mean you're starting to hate me!

According to the Bible:
"Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)

And the Quran is just as adamant:
"Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant." (4:91)

Not something to make me feel warm and fuzzy about the tolerance of religion.

[denuseri]

So you're saying that atheist should have no say in these matters? Isn't that rather ... dogmatic?

No, Im saying that they should perhaps be respectful when discusing these matters instead of hateful.

I'm sorry that this is all you can see of my arguments. I'm not preaching hate. I'm preaching understanding.

You dont preach understanding by constantly drawing analogies between someone elses faith and make believe childrens stories or fantastical flying pigs and the like.

And the first thing I am trying to get people to understand is that your belief system, or domaster's, or anyone else's, is always based on the presumption that gods exist, without ever requiring evidence for that existence.

Thats no different than aethism being based on the "presumption" of a god or gods not existing and you know it, so why try to spin it otherwise, you stated that enumerable times, you state it every single time you post a responce, you will even I predict re-state it againg and try to wiggle your way around the fact of it yet again and ignore the fact that your beliefs have no more validity than any others.

So whats the point in my continued participation if you refuse to debate without clinging to such hypocricy hummm?

I'm sorry if you find that hateful.

You cant prove god doesnt exist any more so than anyone can prove he does...ergo, all arguments eaither way are moot.

All of which you continously ignore and then try and twist with the upmost of sophistry against all logic, becuase it doesnt agree with your dogmatic agenda.

Which is why I am done.

[domaster]

Till now? I hope that doesn't mean you're starting to hate me!

no im not
& 2)you dont have the right to read only half of Verses you must read it all or that will be impropriety
"Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
" (4:91)
noooooooooo

(Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant). (4:91)

killd thos dont stop hurting u & Fighting you

and that mean Self-defense

[Thorne]

[B][COLOR=pink]Thats no different than aethism being based on the "presumption" of a god or gods not existing

But that's just the point, a point which you cannot seem to accept. I DON'T presume that gods do not exist; I don't see evidence FOR their existence and so I don't see any reason to presume that they do.

[Thorne]

You're right. I wasn't aware that the verse I quoted was taken out of context. I apologize.

But doesn't the phrase, "If they keep not aloof from you..." imply that they cannot live amongst you? I can accept that "nor offer you peace nor hold their hands" would imply that they attack you, but not staying aloof doesn't seem to be the same thing.

And what of: "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them" (4:89)

Does this not imply that you cannot be friendly to non-believers, and that you should kill them if they turn away from Allah?

[domaster]

thos Verses tallk to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him And his companions
they Suffered A lot of by idolaters tortured and killed more then 10years
after that god give hem the right Self-defense

Does this not imply that you cannot be friendly to non-believers, and that you should kill them if they turn away from Allah?

is not truth
Incorrect
as long Muslims Protect , as their fellow Christians and Jews
And still living among them since the 14 century
they live as brothers
& i see a lots of Christians and Jews Defend ther fellow Muslims & islam

keep trying

[Thorne]

Yes, there are many people of all religions who would defend others against hatred and violence. There are many atheists who would do the same. As an atheist I do NOT attack religious people just because they are religious, I attack (verbally) the religions which they adhere to, because of the conflicts and irrationalities I see in them. Here in the US I can see the Christians mounting stronger and stronger attacks upon our government and education systems, trying to infiltrate their beliefs into everyday life for everyone. While professing tolerance they mount verbal and physical attacks against non-Christians and atheists. And I see little different when I look at Islam. Or Judaism. Or any other religious group. Each chooses to interpret their holy books in ways that suit them, to the detriment of others.

[domaster]

well you Say this over and over again
Trying to bring the differences, differentiating between religions

with Angry vindictive tone on religions

I hope only you are not Satan worshiped

[denuseri]

But that's just the point, a point which you cannot seem to accept. I DON'T presume that gods do not exist; I don't see evidence FOR their existence and so I don't see any reason to presume that they do.

Which is in and of itself a "presumption" of something's non-existance.

Yet again, you prove my own point for me with blatant hypocrisy.

You are still making a presumtion/ assumption/ corolation/ guestimation etc etc etc eaither way regardless of what word you wish to use, becuase you cannot "KNOW" for sure with any real certitude any more than anyone else can one way or the other.

And Ive come to realize that no amount of logic will work with you on this topic becuase you choose to not let logic apply to your own arguments, you just keep on trying to mince words just so you can maintain your dogmatic agenda you are being an outright sophist and insist anyway that only your way is the right one, which my dear Thorne makes you no different than those very secular fundamentalists that you blame for all wrongs on the earth.

Which is really sad, since you appear to be smart enough to actually be able to understand and realize when your doing it, yet consiously choosing to ignore it for your own convience.