Innate or Learned?

[tehya]

Oh this is a great thread... time to get it going again!

Nature or Nurture??? All I know is from my earliest memories i have had a need to please others, serve others and relinquish myself to others (sometimes this was not always a good thing).

When I found out there was a name for what I am, I was amazed. This meant I was not the only one out there like this!

I never could find myself in a fulfilling relationship, because there was always so much missing for me. Until the day I discovered D/s relationships. I must say, I slipped in with ease, grace and comfort.

No one taught me to be submissive... I feel I just am. The same goes for BDSM... I am discovering my limits in this, but that I had a natural draw to it. Some aspects much more than others. Pain levels differ from one act to the other. But the desire to express myself through pain & bondage has obviously also been very natural for me.

So there it is... not very scientific, but how I feel about my submission.

Master's tehya

[woodsman'sgame]

Arghhh! My very long reply was not accepted and it disappeared.
@#$%^&!!!!

Bah! I'm not writing that long explanation again. I had all kinds of support for my response. But in short, as an experienced educator who has read and studied these theory for years and observed human behavior in and out of the classroom, I have come to the conclusion that human behavior in all aspects is both inate (genetic) and learned. The extent of the influence of genetics depends on the behavior in question.

As far as BDSM is concerned (this is strictly my opinion, no authorities to pull from) it is mostly learned, yet we should remember that "normal" human intercourse (as I have stated somewhere else in this forum) requires the woman to assume a submissive position and the act itself has a semblance of violence. For the male to achieve orgasm he must thrust hard and fast into the female. It is very hard to feel dominant when you are on the receiving end of this thrusting, so I think that submissiveness or dominance is an inate part of our sexuality. How far we carry these submissive and dominant behaviors is learned.

By the way, the intercourse dilemna brings me to a question for the females dommes. How do you deal with intercourse with your sub? How do you maintain the dominance during this submissive act other than being on top (it balances it out some for the female to be on top but you are still being penetrated)? Don't answer here. I don't want to steal this thread. I will start a new thread

[Katmandu]

Although, I did read a rather gruesome story about horny zombies in the Library the other day.....

Anyway, I was a Psych Major in College, until my Junior year, when in order to pass the classes, all I had to do was "agree" with and mimic my Professors' opinions (aka professional certainty). Well, needless to say, I did not, could not, and dropped out of college until I could find my true calling, because the Professors were all obviously and idiotically (in my humble opinion!) quite wrong! Psychological answers are, and always have been subjective. Just like the question in this thread- Nature vs. Nurture.

So far, nobody has approached the subject of "Switches". How does one explain that away? Or, how about all of us subs in here that are extremely agressive/ dominant in real life, but submissive in BDSM? It's almost the same as being a Switch. Now, the explanation for this query, perhaps, lies in the acceptance of what Woodsman's Game said:

I have come to the conclusion that human behavior in all aspects is both inate (genetic) and learned.

Society (nurturing) has taught us men/women to succeed in real life no matter what it takes, even to the point of being aggressive, or dominent. But in fun time world, our natural tendencies come to the forefront.....

Although, all in all, as much as I WANT to be a very good sub, at times I simply cannot let go of my "professional" personality, and this wreaks havoc in the bedroom with my Dom.....*boohoo* just ask him, we've been "on the outs"/ confused/ fighting for the last 3 days! And the guy can't figure out what the Hell to do with a rebellious slave......poor Master!

[erisv]

with each post i type i can just see people nodding at the "opinionated wench" tag under my name and now you know why it's there! anyway i just can't resist the urge to say something and until there is a gag for keyboards i will throw my thoughts up and pray i don't offend anyone too badly.

i agree with most of what has been said about behavior being both innate and learned and i'd like to touch on the subject of switches for just a moment. speaking as an outsider looking in on this (i'm submissive to the core despite my loud mouth but have friends that switch) i would guess that they probably have innate tendencies one way or the other as most of us do but that perhaps their own biology is more evenly balanced toward moderation in temprament then a Dominant or submissives. or perhaps as someone else said in another post - sorry don't remember who or where at the moment and am too lazy to flip pages looking - their "nurture" clashed with their "nature" giving them learned and biological basis' for both sides of the whip.

any switches out there wanna play along and give us an answer???

for myself i've pretty much always been a submissive and fought like hell against it due to my upbringing until recently and i can say i have never felt a sense of relief and....wholeness, like the one i experienced when i gave myself over to this part of my nature under the ever so tormenting guidance of a friend of mine. but that's another story for a different thread and i think i've probably bored y'all enough at this point.

jen

[Pandora's Box]

When I first got into this and started learning about things, I went in at the submissive angle. It appealed to the fantasies that I had. However, as I learned more and more... I knew that I wasn't quite your regular subbie. Yes I do love being a submissive. I get a great deal of enjoyment out of it. But... when push comes to shove... much of it depends on my mood.

I've always been dependant on my mood for many things in my life. This is not to say that I am flaky or unreliable. I can and do force myself to go against my mood for the necessities of life as they are required. But when it comes to bdsm... it is something I want to enjoy. And for me to enjoy it, I have to be allowed to follow my moods.

Anyway... back to the story. After about a year of exploration and learning, I encountered two different doms in real life that I spent a good amount of time with learning and talking. Both were quick to recognize within me what I have barely begun to explore myself.

In fact one of them even encouraged me to spread my wings and get some real life practice. Which I did do. To be honest... I was flying high off the experience. It didn't work out in the long run... but I loved seeing him prostrate before me doing as I bid. I also got the opportunity to learn that I give a mean spanking and I really like to do that too.

Since then, I've played several times on line but took myself out of the local scene since it just... wasn't my bag.

Now, for the submissive side of me. *Sigh* I get gushy mushy squishy and subbie like for the love of the right dominant man. It has to involve love. I just can't be a submissive without affection. But I do love to please the man I love.

There are times when my submissive and dominant natures do battle. It took me the better part of 8 months to work through some of the worst of it. I was ready to walk away altogether. The confusion was that overwhelming.

I had to come to terms with exactly how far into either I will go. I find myself, as a dominant, much more likely to respect the subs limits and make sure they are treated with human dignity. Which does tend to limit me at this point as many male subs seem to prefer harsher treatment than I am capable of dishing out.

As a submissive, I need to know that I will not be dehumanized and that what is done, is done with affection and love. For example, my hard limits would be things like serving as furniture or sharing. I can also sniff out a poser dominant so fast that they're head spins.

It is all very much so tied in to my nature. I've had submissive thoughts for as long as I can remember. I've also always been very much so my own person. Some submissives can do the mind, body and heart. I can do body and heart. But not mind. Which is odd, because I do tend to get into the mental aspects of submission and tend to know how to elicit them.

But then perhaps that is not such a strange thing as I battled myself for quite some time in my mind about this whole thing.

[somewriter]

After a little while of starting to have sexual fantasies, I found that some began to feature an element of me being helpless or controlled. I had no idea what bdsm was, it just sort of happened. So innate would be the category that it fell into. I then found that bdsm encompassed what these desires were, and hence it was labelled. But then when I (finally!) began to act on/out these desires, I toyed with domming. Turns out I quite like the idea of that too. And now on the subbie task feature in the forum I seem to be domming, and really enjoying it. But I think was innate too, I just hadn't realised it.

On a side note though I'm not sure I am as true a bdsmer as some. While I gain pleasure from domming and subbing it is invariably because I enjoy the situation I am in as a sub, or I enjoy the idea of the situation I am putting a sub in, rather than the deep feelings of submission/domination in relation to the other person. But maybe this would change if I met the "right" person as it were. Just an observation.

P.S. this post may appear twice. If it does, apologies.

[csr]

This is indeed a fascinating thread. I think it's because everybody in a kink lifestyle has at sometime questioned why they are the way they are.

Speaking from my own experience, I believe it to be a biological thing. I remember at a very young age being extremely "interested" in any TV shows that showed anybody tied up or restrained in any way. I couldn't take my eyes off Mr. Brady of the Brady Bunch stuck in the stocks... little knowing that it was because twenty-something years later I would be excited to have the same thing happen to me. This was LONG before puberty or any thoughts of anything sexual had crossed my mind.

I've read that gays statistically rarely have gay siblings. I think this would point towards a biological, rather than environmental cause. (I know that it is not the same thing, but there could be parallels).

Honetly, if I could choose my lot in life, I doubt that I would choose to be a sub male. I accept though, that that is what I am and I know deep inside that there is nothing I could do to change how I feel.

...my two cents.

[zig]

I remember in nursery school, this boy used to play some game where he would tie me to the bookcase. I resisted, of course, but secretly loved that game. My friends and I would tie each other to chairs in the basement and see how well caught we could ge each other. We were maybe 8 at the time.

And movies, TV, books containing someone torturing someone, especially whipping, or tying them up, were very very interesting. Tingle in the blood interesting. Not even hit puberty, this was interesting.

So here I am.

[Barton]

I had never really thought BDSM at all when I was growing up. Through most of adult life it was only a "kinky" way to occasionally have sex. However, when my wife mentioned to me that she wanted to submit to me totally and be my slave, I knew that it felt right. We talked it over and immediately started. I would imagine that we both were meant to live this way, it seems totally natural to us both.
So after all that is said, I would say that it is something that is innate, then we learn.
Barton.

[csr]

Barton, I'd have to agree with you that there are both elements. I think there has to be something innate about our desire. I've tried the role of switch, and it does absolutely nothing for me. I get no erotic feelings tying someone else up (unless, I look at them and imagine myself in their place).
I'm pretty sure that I couldn't "learn" to be aroused by those actions... even though I know that I've been aroused by the thought of restraint for my entire remembered life.

I think the learned part is where we figure out, through trial and error, exactly what turns us on the most. IE: if you have an interest in pain, then you will have to go through the process of finding out just how much you will realistically enjoy. (for me, that limit seems to be moving higher and higher all the time)

My sig. oth. also tried switching roles (I guess that is obvious), and found the
experience of being helpless completely un-stimulating. I truly believe we are wired one way or the other, and a few are both... just like those who are born ambidextrous.

[Barton]

Not only learning our roles. The next most important thing is when we learn our craft. Bot subs and doms have a lot of technique to learn. On top of that the psychological aspect of the relationship is always being tweaked. It may be in us when we are born, but it is like a craft, it is learned over the rest of our lives.
Barton.

[cornelius76]

I have been reading this threat with great interest, and must say that - for me at least - the primal urge was definitively nature.

My youth was uneventful and my upbringing secure if not protective. Then in my early teens i saw a hint of a bdsm inspired picture, roughly at the same time as I managed to see a late night documentary on the LA piercing scene, and I was hooked. Without any previous exposure, everything just clicked. And the frantic search began...

Nurture has though played a big part in getting where I am. First as a dampening factor - my upbringing, social mores of my environment etc - later as an inspiring factor, when I started to explore my feelings more and more and learned about them.

Another argument for nature is how well my interest in bdsm fits in with general character (erm, nurture or nature?).

The guiding principals with regard to my bdsm interests are a need to experiment, a great (too great perhaps) curiosity and a desire to seek out my limits and push them. These apply equally well to being a sub as to being a Dom. (or to whether or not you get on that killer roller coaster).

As a sub, it is incredible to give up control (temporarily) and to see where your Domme will take you. As a Dom the idea of taking someone on that journey, and having complete control (to a degree) is very appealing.

The same goes for the physical aspect. My body seems to react positively to extreme stimulation... and has done so as long as I can remember (as a child, I once fell on a gravel path, getting those pesky stones wedged deep into my knee... the hour spend trying to get them out, tongue between lips in concentration, is one of my most vivid childhood memories - guess the curiosity also played a role there). But, knowing that, and therefore knowing how your sub is likely to respond, must make administering these extreme stimulations great fun and exciting.

So, for me nature all the way, with the caveat that nurture allows us to cultivate these feelings, and prior to that can help or inhibit the surfacing of those feelings and actions.

Cornelius.