Lost Data

[denuseri]

Predestination that you are incable of knowing doesnt change the fact that from your perspective: you and you alone decide for yourself what your going to do in any given situation.

The one attempting to argue symatics here isnt me.

It doesnt refute anything whatsoever when you put Stenger up against Augustine and Occum with his razors.

Not all theologians say evil comes from "satan" (which wouldnt matter eaither since god made the devil) and being all powerful the devil must work for him by Stenger's model or not exisit at all, which only really addresess the issue of omnibenevolance.

Which btw isnt one of the criteria of being a surpreme deity persay.

[Thorne]

Predestination that you are incable of knowing doesnt change the fact that from your perspective: you and you alone decide for yourself what your going to do in any given situation.

Let's play a little game. You are my prisoner and I have given you a choice. Press the wrong button and you will die. Press the right button and you will go free. You have no reason to believe I am lying, and have every reason to believe that you may get free. You don't know that both buttons will kill you, so you assume you have a choice, but in reality your fate is sealed.

Just because YOU think there is a choice, or free will, does not make it so. An omniscient God implies that your fate is sealed. Your choices, while perhaps important in your mind, are meaningless.

It doesnt refute anything whatsoever when you put Stenger up against Augustine and Occum with his razors.

Not all theologians say evil comes from "satan" (which wouldnt matter eaither since god made the devil) and being all powerful the devil must work for him by Stenger's model or not exisit at all, which only really addresess the issue of omnibenevolance.

Stenger's arguments are just as valid as Augustine's. Neither has any evidence for his side, although to my mind Stenger has the more logical argument, based upon the attributes of God as defined in the Bible.

Which btw isnt one of the criteria of being a surpreme deity persay.

I don't know about any generic supreme deity, but God, as defined in the Bible, is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. So he either permits evil things to happen, which means he is not omnibenevolent, or he doesn't know when evil will happen, which means he is not omniscient, or he cannot do anything to contain evil, which means he is not omnipotent. In ANY of these cases he fails the test, a test based on his own purported words, as put down in the Bible.

[steelish]

Let's play a little game. You are my prisoner and I have given you a choice. Press the wrong button and you will die. Press the right button and you will go free. You have no reason to believe I am lying, and have every reason to believe that you may get free. You don't know that both buttons will kill you, so you assume you have a choice, but in reality your fate is sealed.

Just because YOU think there is a choice, or free will, does not make it so. An omniscient God implies that your fate is sealed. Your choices, while perhaps important in your mind, are meaningless.

Ah yes, but the predetermined fate God gives you (if indeed He is omniscient) might be based upon your life up to that moment. How you lived it...how you treated others...how you reacted to situations, etc.

[steelish]

I don't know about any generic supreme deity, but God, as defined in the Bible, is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. So he either permits evil things to happen, which means he is not omnibenevolent, or he doesn't know when evil will happen, which means he is not omniscient, or he cannot do anything to contain evil, which means he is not omnipotent. In ANY of these cases he fails the test, a test based on his own purported words, as put down in the Bible.

MY theory - and it is JUST a theory of mine - is that God was the meaning of creation, and just as compared to the universe, our lives on earth are just a blink of an eye as far as "time" goes. God created life to allow good and evil to wage against each other, and it is up to each individual to wage their own war against evil. Some lose, others win.

As to predetermined fate; my theory on that is that the decisions we make in life (and the decisions of the people who surround us) lead us to a moment in time where the continuation of our life or our death might occur. I believe we make myriad decisions daily that could easily effect whether we live or die.

Case in point; You might be driving a motorcycle because it is a sunny day and you decided to go for a pleasant drive, but the person driving in the lane beside you decides to fiddle with the radio, or possibly to send a text message. Suddenly, their car swerves into you and you get into a fatal accident. Was your death your fault? Maybe, because you didn't HAVE to get on that motorcycle. The accident surely wasn't your fault, but your death could have been prevented had you made a different decision.

[Thorne]

MY theory - and it is JUST a theory of mine - is that God was the meaning of creation, and just as compared to the universe, our lives on earth are just a blink of an eye as far as "time" goes. God created life to allow good and evil to wage against each other, and it is up to each individual to wage their own war against evil. Some lose, others win.

I can understand this, even accept the possibility of it. But it is NOT Jehovah you are talking about here. The god you hypothesize would not be likely to intervene in human affairs, would not really care whether or not people believed in him, would not be interested in having people worship him. He would have started the universe and let it go.

As to predetermined fate; my theory on that is that the decisions we make in life (and the decisions of the people who surround us) lead us to a moment in time where the continuation of our life or our death might occur. I believe we make myriad decisions daily that could easily effect whether we live or die.

Obviously this statement holds true as far as we can know. We do make decisions every day, and they do affect our own future, however minutely, and the futures of those around us. I have no problem with this.

And again, I am dealing with the traditional definition of the biblical God. As an omniscient being, by definition, he knows the entire path of the universe, and every particle and beam of light, from creation to destruction. Since the bible places him outside of the universe, infinite, he knows everything about everything even before he creates it, again by definition. So regardless of how we may believe our actions are performed by our own free will, those actions were written in the mind of God, if you will, even before the creation of the universe. That is predestination.

Now I don't believe any of this. I don't find any need to hypothesize beings who have no interaction with the universe, beings who do not help or hinder us along our paths. As far as I can tell, such beings have no real meaning in our lives.

[steelish]

I can understand this, even accept the possibility of it. But it is NOT Jehovah you are talking about here. The god you hypothesize would not be likely to intervene in human affairs, would not really care whether or not people believed in him, would not be interested in having people worship him. He would have started the universe and let it go.

Not necessarily. I believe our life on earth is God's test for us.