Physical strength

[damyanti]

An interesting question arose in a conversation I had today.

Can a physically inferior partner ever be truly dominant?

If the sub is only choosing to submit, but can say no just like that...the Dom has no physical strength to overpower him/her...

Who is truly the dominant force here? If there is an underlying sense (real or not) that the submissive partner is only indulging the dominant, but can turn the table at his/hers convenience?

And the question that arises from this is...how or how much do you use your physical strength to your advantage and or as your dominance tool?

Sorry, I am just rambling and probably making a disaster of explaining this...but I would love to hear what you think.

[grinner666]

The thing is that power exchange isn't about one person taking another's choices away, it's about the the sub's surrendering certain freedoms. The ability to physically force dominance on another should never be an issue ... it brings into question the entire concept of SSC. If a dom tries to take away a sub's freedom to choose whether or not to submit, that dom is not engaged in power exchange, he/she is engaged in rape ... or at the VERY least, abuse.

[Ozme52]

Dominance is about personality.

Yes, it is nice to also be physically strong and able to let your sub "feel" that strength, but I thrill at what my girl does because she wishes to please me. That is all about the person I am and not the body I have.

Case in point... your question, by its very nature, would dismiss 99% of the domme-malesub relationships if D/s were about physical strength.

And for those who do revel in submitting to a physically stronger person... and those who revel in dominating a physically weaker person... the thrill comes from knowing you can... and that's mental too.

The only relationships that are based solely on physical dynamics are nc relationships... and they mostly exist in fiction... ooops... that's mental too.

:D

[lucy]

As a sub i think it's nice to be the physically weaker in the relationship. However, it certainly isn't necessary. And even if my Master is way stronger than me, i still could outrun him easily. ;)
So if i stay with him, it's only because that's what i want to do, not because of his strength.


And the question that arises from this is...how or how much do you use your physical strength to your advantage and or as your dominance tool?
He uses his strength often, to pin me down and tying me and i just love it. Or he uses it to pin me down and tickle me, which i don't love at all *grrrr*

[leah06]

OK, this is a little odd, but I knew a woman once who was in a relationship with a dwarf. Possibly there's a more PC term for this, and I don't mean this in any way except factual. Anyway, sadly, he used to beat her. I never talked with her about the physical power dynamics in the relationship, but obviously she wasn't being physically overpowered. In this case it was abuse and not all in fun, but he clearly had some kind of power advantage in the relationship that transcended the physical. I certainly don't see any reason that you couldn't freely cede power to someone who couldn't physically wrest it from you.

[damyanti]

Or he uses it to pin me down and tickle me, which i don't love at all *grrrr*

That is why I put tickling down as my hard limit. Not kidding, :d.

[Logic1]

That is why I put tickling down as my hard limit. Not kidding, :d.

my girl laughs uncontrollably when I tickle her. That must mean that she likes it right?? :D

and as for physical strength, no that isnt nessecary since it is about giving up powers to the Dominant and not about Him/Her taking it.

[damyanti]

Ok, just to clarify, the original question was not about anything non consentual or violent.

And I fully agree that the most important part of the domination is mental, and that physical strenght is not mandatory. We choose to submit....due to that invisible chemistry that comples us.


But we also cant disregard the fact that if you are strong enough to restrain a person, that the ability to physically overpower someone makes you automatically (more) dominant....

The question came from a conversation with a friend, where I presented a possibility of wanting to try switch, for an evening. A friend said ok, but that in all honesty I would most likely finish the evening in a very sub role as he re-confirmed his dominance. I took that as a challenge ;) and said that we would see how it would end, his reply was, "No we wouldn't. It would end up as I wanted it." :d

Which brought me to the original question....considering that the physically stronger sub can easily turn the table on the Dom....is a physically inferior dominant partner the one truly in control?


LOL, I just like to explore where my mind takes me, sorry if I am just rambling. xxx

[Pearlgem]

I'm small but I dominate great big male pupils all day long through force of character, the role I have in front of them and and little teacherly sarcasm.
On a personal note, I love to feel little (and secure and feminine) in the presence of my tall Master, but he's never once used his superior strength to make me submit to him. In fact, like a lot of tall people he can stoop, and his affable diffidence (outside of the punishment room) I find incredibly endearing.

[hislilslut2008]

my Sir is hugely stronger then me. i know. punshment means i cant walk for a few days when i really piss him off. but i am a way better fighter and if i wanted to could beat him into a bloody pulp with almost nothing to show for it, strenght has almost nothing to do with my submission. he has compleat control over my mind and thus my body. if i didnt trust him i would be terrified, but he's the only person i trust. i have no hard or soft limits with him. and he has compleat control, the only place where strenght comes in is when i get dragged, or carried somewhere. and when he tells me to fight back. im not scared of his strength and i shouldnt be.
yes the sub chooses to submit, i choose to give up my control. he gave up drinking. not all Doms give something up tho.

[jeanne]

This is a good question!

I'm a tall girl. 5'11" and 140 lbs. I am pretty skinny, but have always thought of myself as big. After all, I'm taller than the majority of men and almost all women. I had no experience with feeling small, delicate, petite...until I met Him. Knowing for an absolute fact that He is bigger and stronger than me is a thrill.

It isn't a requirement, however. Just a nice added bonus in the power-exchange dynamic.

[oww-that-hurt]

That is why I put tickling down as my hard limit. Not kidding, :d.

Same here. For some reason tickling puts my mind into complete overload, even in non-sub/Dom situations. To me personally tickling would be 100% non-consensual and abusive.

[Veralynne]

I think Rachel's response really says it all here about the necessity of physical strength. Dominance is usually always about the mental aspect when it comes to surrendering your will to another person.

With that said, I love the physical aspect and it is important to me, personally, in terms of losing control. I enjoy being beaten and held down by a man's pure body weight, so it would be difficult for me if I was physically stronger than him. My Master and I are both fans of using bare hands (vs. ropes, implements, etc.), so His physical ability to both force and hold me down on the bed and beat the shit out of me are something I am very thankful for.

As a caveat, this is a luxury I am easily able to afford, being only 5'2", small, and purposefully weak. I used to be rather strong in high school playing sports, etc., but I found that I preferred to be slimmer and weaker for just this reason- enjoying the feeling of a man more fully overpowering me.

[Lisais mine]

you know, it's kind of funny to me. from a purely physical standpoint, i'm only 5'10", about 180 pounds. but i am a lifelong martial artist, and I have extensive knowledge of human anatomy- it is fairly easy for me to control the body of someone considerably larger than myself.

Like everyone said, domming isn't about size or strength of arm. it's about strength of will, and desire to submit.

[markus_valtion]

i dont realy use my strenght. cause i'm not that strong :P. but its not imprtant. its the way you use it. i'm pretty quick and that works great. and if i cant hold her down cause she is stronger i just tie her up and then she can struggle all she wants.

[claire]

My on-line Dom was a paraplegic. We talked about physical strength. He transfered his 6'2" 250lb self from his wheel chair to bed etc. Hence he had quite a bit of upper body strength. We talked about the physical strength aspect of it hoping that one day we would be together in real life (it never happened). I out weigh him, so we figured I would have a weight and mobility advantage if we wrestled, however he obviously had superior upper body strength. He also had the force of will.

I think Lisais Mine has it right too. That it is physically possible for a smaller person to control a larger person.

The idea of my Dom being able to physically control me is a big turn on for me. I am not likely to find someone that out weighs me, but most men regardless of height are stronger than me. I don't know if I would be able to submit to a Dom that I didn't think could have that physical control - although with a forceful personality it might not matter. I also don't think I could submit to a Dom who is too much younger than me - I am not sure in that situation that the force of personality would be enough - I would probably just think of him as a macho cub and not take him seriously.

[DowntownAmber]

Jeanne and I may as well be twins: I'm also a tall girl at just a hair shy of 6' and a touch over 135 lbs. I wear boots with heels as a general rule, so I rarely run into anyone taller than me, much less anyone that towers over me. I often use my height as an advantage when working or just out and about - it's subtle, but certainly a effective way to assert one's will.

Being that I am very aware of how I use my own size and body, I am also very aware of the body language of others. Regardless of size or strength, that's what I respond to in regards to a person's physicality. For example, I dated a gentleman that was nearly 6'8". I did like being with him and standing by him - we made an incredibly striking couple, however, he was entirely non-dominant in personality and action. When we interacted, he stll responded more to my lead than he led me.

J, on the other hand, is a hair shorter than I am yet he is one of those men that has a natural purpose about how he moves. He is a definite presense in any room he enters, regardless of the size and strength of the other men surrounding him.

So for me, it's not just the strength you have, but how you manage it. When J physically moves me or enforces his will in that way, yes, it's a turn on but much more so because of the attitude that drives it.

So after much meandering, my answer to this question is: I do prefer that my Dom could overpower me or protect me. I've simply never been attracted to someone that hasn't been able to do that. Coupled with that, he has to be aware of when to use that strength and when to use the mental aspect of his dominance.

[bip0lar]

hm. i'm big--quite big, both for my age and, well, for today's world. although i go for the mental click, if you ask me what traits i would look for in a dominant physically i wouldn't go for the skinny type; i like knowing that pinning me down wouldn't be hard for a Dom, even though i would be willingly submitting to him. that, however, isn't a general rule. although i'm pretty strong, when i'm in my sub mode it seems like only the cheek is there and the strength goes away *grins*.
bottom line, though, i agree with what Oz said. Dominance is about personality--small or big, tall or short, if they've got it, they've got it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

I'm 5' 2" and 105 lb. I probably couldn't fight my way out a wet paper sack. It's funny to see me topping a man because he's invariably taller and twice, if not 3 times, my weight. It's even funnier to see me doing it dressed like a school girl and making his knees buckle with my bare hand, but I digress. *ggls* Anyway, the best analogy I can come up with at the moment is horseback riding. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I like to ride my male subbie friend around the dungeon like a pony. *grins* Anyone who's ever ridden a horse has to wonder why such a large, powerful, and intelligent creature would obey the whims of the puny human upon it's back. It's not as if the horse doesn't know it could unseat you at any moment. In fact, some of them like to remind you that they could, indeed, knock you off on the nearest tree or go where they want by taking the bit in their teeth. Where was I going with this? Um....the horse chooses not to kill its rider....just as the sub chooses to obey. I have to admit, though, that I enjoy a bit of physicality on occasion when I'm subbing. *smiles* It's fun to be picked up and flipped this way and that way like I'm little more than a rag doll. Rawr!

*Rag doll.....Daddy's little cutie*

[damyanti]

Thanks Flaming_Redhead, loved the whole post and that is a very good analogy.

And thank you to everyone for very interesting respones. :)


It's funny to see me topping a man because he's invariably taller and twice, if not 3 times, my weight. It's even funnier to see me doing it dressed like a school...

It woud be fun (and no doubt educational) to see that :d.

[Demon Dom]

Control and power have always gone hand in hand for me. There is no merit in all the power of the world when you are unable to control it.

[Carpe Coma]

An interesting question arose in a conversation I had today.

Can a physically inferior partner ever be truly dominant?

Absolutely. Even ignoring issues of consent and legality, physical power is the weakest and least effective of all kinds of power. Really, how many things can you actually be physically forced to do? All physical force can do is do things to you, it can't make you do anything. Secondly, it is extremely limited in range and speed. It can only extend as far is the wielder and only move as fast as him/her/it. Other forms of power can be exercised solely through communication, thus vastly extending the reach, speed, and degree of control (as you can actually get someone to do something). The strongest forms leave an imprint on the person, so the effect is not delayed nor weakened by distance and only slowly by time. The appeal of physical force is that it is the most direct kind, not that it is the strongest.


If the sub is only choosing to submit, but can say no just like that...the Dom has no physical strength to overpower him/her...

Who is truly the dominant force here? If there is an underlying sense (real or not) that the submissive partner is only indulging the dominant, but can turn the table at his/hers convenience?

Theoretical ability and actual willingness are two different things. If a person doesn't have the will/desire/knowledge to do something, does the fact that they could do it really matter?


And the question that arises from this is...how or how much do you use your physical strength to your advantage and or as your dominance tool?

Applying physical strength can be a lot of fun because, as noted, it is the most direct form of power. However, as an actual tool for dominance, almost never is it used to keep control. If it comes to that, control is already lost.

[steelish]

He uses his strength often, to pin me down and tying me and i just love it. Or he uses it to pin me down and tickle me, which i don't love at all *grrrr*

I'm with you there, sister! Forge LOVES to tickle me!

But I must say, I do love the fact that he can easily overpower me. It's not that I want or need him to, but knowing that he is capable of doing it is like icing on the cake.

[steelish]

my girl laughs uncontrollably when I tickle her. That must mean that she likes it right?? :D

Grrrrrrr! What is it with Doms and their reasoning?

[Logic1]

Grrrrrrr! What is it with Doms and their reasoning?

There is nothing wrong with our reasoning, you know.


As for physical power as a need for Dominance again from Me.
Using strength to pin her down before tying or something is fun but is that really Dominating or just "force". Personally I am leaning towards that being force. Dominating is telling you to present your arms to me for tying them. That is what it is written in MY book anyways.
That however doesnt mean that force cant be sexy and for some perhaps even a necessity to submit or to Dominate even. The ones that needs physical strength to Dominate needs help though.
:span:

[GrandMaster]

There is nothing wrong with our reasoning, you know.


As for physical power as a need for Dominance again from Me.
Using strength to pin her down before tying or something is fun but is that really Dominating or just "force". Personally I am leaning towards that being force. Dominating is telling you to present your arms to me for tying them. That is what it is written in MY book anyways.
That however doesnt mean that force cant be sexy and for some perhaps even a necessity to submit or to Dominate even. The ones that needs physical strength to Dominate needs help though.
:span:

You are alright for someone from Skåke ;)

[damyanti]

Theoretical ability and actual willingness are two different things. If a person doesn't have the will/desire/knowledge to do something, does the fact that they could do it really matter?


I think this is the crux of it. Very nicely put. Thank you.

[Logic1]

You are alright for someone from Skåke ;)

naturally Man ;)

[leah06]

I think one of the questions was whether the Dom/me needed to be ABLE to overpower the sub in order to be fully Dominant, not necessarily whether s/he needed to do that all the time as an exercise of Dominance. I expressed my opinion before that I don't think that is a necessary prerequisite for all D/s interactions.

Reading this thread makes me think, in a way, that for a lot of people force can be another tool in the Dominance arsenal (mixed metaphor?) - it can be fun to be overpowered, and it can be helpful to feel that the Dominant partner has the ability to overpower the sub, but it's not necessary any more than it's necessary to have any other specific D/s toy in your toy bag. (Oh those metaphors.)

[Logic1]

Yeah rachel. I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head on that one.'

[kaerose13]

Same here. For some reason tickling puts my mind into complete overload, even in non-sub/Dom situations. To me personally tickling would be 100% non-consensual and abusive.

i'm exactly the same with that too, that is the strongest limit i have. (i've actually flipped out and given normal friends bloody noses for tickling me, i didn't mean too, its just my instinctual reaction to tickling).


anyways, for me it is 100% necessary for somebody to be physically stronger than me, or at least able to beat me in a fight, for me to submit. for as small as i am, 5'4'' and 110lbs, i am extreemly strong and a decent fighter. i need the thought that He could force me to obey even though he never would. the possibility of danger is completely necessary for me. if i know that i could overpower somebody it doesn't require any trust for me to submit. also, i like to fight back, if i end that fight on top i'm no longer interested in submitting.

from reading this thread its obvious that many people disagree, but for me the physical strength is definitely a requirement.

[damyanti]

i need the thought that He could force me to obey even though he never would.

This really nailed it for me. Thank you for putting it into words so nicely Kaerose.


if i know that i could overpower somebody it doesn't require any trust for me to submit. also, i like to fight back, if i end that fight on top i'm no longer interested in submitting.


That is exactly from where my question came from.