The Pain of Sepration form the Pain.......

The pain of separation from the pain……

What is it about pain that you love?

Is it the emotional pain…..the kind that leaves you emotionally rung out and spent?

Is it the psychical pain……where the body is tortured past endurance?


Both are valid points of pain. Both will leave you drained and exhausted. Both will twist you to blissful numbness.

Is the separation form the pain just as great just as excruciating?? Is the need to give and receive pain…..just as painful when the need is unfulfilled?

for n

I'm glad I just settled in with a hot tea and some very late lunch, because I have a feeling I'm about to get wordy here. Not that I have I weath of experience in the Lifestyle and have any or all of the answers to give, but simply because this post begs more than just a passing glance.

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Originally Posted by thrall

The pain of separation from the pain……

What is it about pain that you love?

Is it the emotional pain…..the kind that leaves you emotionally rung out and spent?

Is it the psychical pain……where the body is tortured past endurance?


Both are valid points of pain. Both will leave you drained and exhausted. Both will twist you to blissful numbness.

Is the separation form the pain just as great just as excruciating?? Is the need to give and receive pain…..just as painful when the need is unfulfilled?

for n

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Pain, for me, is destruction and reconstruction. The emotional pain is at the core, the physical pain the manifestation of that. I love both aspects.

Life is cluttered and chaotic at it's best. Our minds are beautiful multi-taskers, however, and we navigate through by keeping our mental eye on multiple aspects of the day to day. For most of us, this functionality is second nature and barely a blip on the radar of our cognitive thinking. All of this day to day activity builds up over time -- each person and experience tracks through our mental space and things get cluttered, there's less room for us in there. As our eyes are focused on the building list of things to do and to think and to feel pulling us in multiple directions, we loose the ability to connect as strongly to ourselves and to the very few other people that are legitimately important. We loose focus.

Pain deconstrusts and reconstructs, It empties the space inside and gives us a clean place to focus ourselves, to feel something singular and strong, to feel purpose -- not simply to be bombarded by multiple diluted and inconsequential emotions. When Master and I begin a session together, I can see everything in the room, I can hear the noises outside, I'm aware of the temperature. My thoughts are a dull roar of white noise. He starts by talking to me, telling me what He's going to do to me, what I'm expected to do for Him. I hold onto His voice, let it start to take me apart. He'll often tie me, and as He does my focus is drawn to the feel of His hands on me, the bonds themselves, and the discomfort certain positions and ties put me in. A light slap to the face, a sharp word, or the sharp crack of His crop across my ass narrows my focus in further. The inconsequential thoughts are knocked to the side as my emotional reinforcements rush to adjust to His voice, teasing and humiliating, and to His touch, shocking and building in intensity. "You're mine, Pet" He whispers, "here for my pleasure," and my urge to please and to belong to the man that has taken control of me morphs the pain into a throbbing pleasure. I no longer feel I am taking my pain as a punishment, but that I am giving it as my gift. As He sees I am working the pain into pleasure, He spanks or whips a little harder, the sensations building in intensity and consuming more and more of me. He touches me in a pleasureable way, blurring the division between what I know should feel good and what I am actually experiencing. Everything else in my being is being razed by the now overwhelming burn of sensation and emotion. I want to be broken, emptied, wiped clean by the power of this pain. The physical sensation carries my emotions with it. When this is intense enough, the pain legitimate enough, there is a point where I feel nothing but that... A total fufillment followed by a crash into perfect and clean emptiness.

It's a hard thing to come down from, but after He has held me close to Him for awhile I begin to feel like how I know I wanted to -- the pain was a fire that burned away the old tangles of emotional growth, and has left behind rich ashes to grow from anew. This fire is His gift to me, my submission and pain mine to Him.

This is why I love it...

Again, not really my thing.

I feel that I use building techniques I concentrate on making her feel better about herself. It does help though have control over her with just a look or word that lets her know she has disappointed me.

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Originally Posted by Sir_Russell

Again, not really my thing.

I feel that I use building techniques I concentrate on making her feel better about herself. It does help though have control over her with just a look or word that lets her know she has disappointed me.

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I don't automatically think "punishment" or have a negative reaction when pain is brought up in a post such as this one. On the contrary, to me the worst punishment imaginable is that word or look of disappointment you describe.

I don't really feel a need to give pain but if needed I could make myself enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by thrall

The pain of separation from the pain……

What is it about pain that you love?

Is it the emotional pain…..the kind that leaves you emotionally rung out and spent?

Is it the psychical pain……where the body is tortured past endurance?


Both are valid points of pain. Both will leave you drained and exhausted. Both will twist you to blissful numbness.

Is the separation form the pain just as great just as excruciating?? Is the need to give and receive pain…..just as painful when the need is unfulfilled?

for n

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I'll admit it - I have some sadistic tendencies - I enjoy giving pain - especially to someone who enjoys receiving it. Taking a girl who enjoys pain, making her wetter and wetter with the skillful application is (one of) my favourite forms of foreplay. I will take her to her edge in doing that but not beyond her level of endurance, since that defeats the purpose with the sorts of girls I enjoy most. Essentially, I use the careful and precise application of pain to reduce her to a state where she wants/needs/begs for sex. I use mental pain (humiliation) as well as physical pain for that purpose.

And yes, thrall, I think the unfulfilled need to apply pain is likely felt by both giver and receiver, though probably in different ways (never having been someone who needs to receive pain, I don't know for sure) but there is a sexual tension that builds when the means are not available. Sometimes I use that sexual tension as part of the giving, as part of an extended mind-fk, since the sexual release is orders of magnitude higher when it is finally allowed.

Let me step in here and remind all the Doms that you should never use a pain causing implement on a sub without first using it on the Dom in the exact same way he will use it on the sub. This will allow the Dom to use the paddle, whip, cane or whatever with a lot more respect for what the sub is induring to please him

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Originally Posted by Sir_Russell

Let me step in here and remind all the Doms that you should never use a pain causing implement on a sub without first using it on the Dom in the exact same way he will use it on the sub. This will allow the Dom to use the paddle, whip, cane or whatever with a lot more respect for what the sub is induring to please him

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I agree with you. Its always good to know exactly the way something feels before you use it on others.........

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Originally Posted by Sir_Russell

Let me step in here and remind all the Doms that you should never use a pain causing implement on a sub without first using it on the Dom in the exact same way he will use it on the sub. This will allow the Dom to use the paddle, whip, cane or whatever with a lot more respect for what the sub is induring to please him

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too right Russell!!! A lot more respect and a much better knowledge of what not to do with the implement as well.

I actually extend that to some bondage gear as well. I won't use a new set of suspension cuffs until I've tried them myself - in the same manner I'm going to use them on my girl. I have a decent grasp of physiology - and I feel I will be able to tell if what I'm using or how I'm using it can cause physical issues (aggravating repetitive strain injury for example). If I have the option, I prefer to try them where I buy them - but the suspension gear available locally is over-priced and not very good quality, so I've been buying new gear from a couple of people in the US who do really nice work, and who I'm more than happy to recommend if anyone want s the names (PM me).

And sometimes it backfires...lol...I needed help with one set of cuffs - and had a playful sub with spunk - once she had me at her mercy - she pulled down my pants and me a right royal going over with the quirt. Payback later was sweet - but we both had a good laugh over it.

That is funny for me she would have ended her service right then. But we are all different.

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Originally Posted by Sir_Russell

That is funny for me she would have ended her service right then. But we are all different.

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Lol - she had a wicked sense of humour Russell - and it was done in fun, though it was painful at the time. Had she done it in a malicious way her service would have ended with that act - but she abased herself before she let me loose and apologized for her action.

She never did anything quite like that again - and I never felt I had to watch my back around her either. She still played pranks and I never had the desire to stop that - it was part of who she was (but then, her sense of fun is what made her so attractive to me, even if I was the butt of some of those pranks - and she never gave offence with her pranks). I've always enjoyed a girl who can laugh, be funny and who appreciates the humour of a situation.

i like to think that the pain is the liberation required for the submission. If there was no pain then i would not be challenged to submit and therefore i would not feel properly submissive. i am only new to these sensations, but not being 24/7 and being required to be fairly “alpha” in my work, the whole idea of my submission could become quite superficial unless i am forced to focus on submitting to my Mistress – being challenged by the pain.

DowntownAmber’s analogy of the destruction and reconstruction is a great why to think about it – for me it is the deconstruction of all the “stuff” i may come with and the reconstruction of the submissive – leave it all behind – burning all the old emotional stuff away. Coming from the experience on a huge high. The cleansing and renewal given by Her in return for my submission in the pain.

Thanks DowntownAmber, your post was really clarifying for me!
Thanks Thrall for generating such great discussion :)

having read the comments there isn't a lot that hasn't been said, but still, i'll just say my bit..
to me physical pain is very much connected to pleasure and, at times, not always, lack of it works towards lack of pleasure. i however connect it to the emotional, psychological if you want, aspect of it: if i am getting pain in order to be punished, i can't enjoy it, even if i wanted to or tried.

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Originally Posted by Sir_Russell

It does help though have control over her with just a look or word that lets her know she has disappointed me.

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i find that extremely true, i feel bad enough for disappointing before we get to the point of physical punishment--thus my psychic won't allow me to enjoy it. however, a smile, a look, or the tone of voice would easily change that.

pain--just for the sake of it i looked up the word, i found its synonyms: torture, misery, torment. Pain, ache, agony, anguish are terms for sensations causing suffering or torment. Pain and ache usually refer to physical sensations. i could easily add to that list: exhilaration, pleasure, orgasm, exhaustion. it leaves the body weak (it can also leave your psychic weak) but at the end of the day it can make you feel fulfilled, complete.
i don't want to appear overly philosophical or what not, but it's the complete yin and yang here (done consensually of course). one gives, the other receives leading to completion.

but, hey, that's just me :)

Pain isn't the worst punishment and often it can be used to enhance the pleasure, to wake nerve endings in places ordinarily not associated with sex and submission - so that it is all of you that submits, not just the nipple that is clamped or the deep ache that is nurtured.

For me it helps focus my mind, as somebody else pointed, to block out the room, the outside noise, the things in the room and when it hurts to fix on my Master and what he is telling me to do.

The worst punishment is, I agree, him walking away from me in disgust, or disappointment and leaving me there. To not have him near me, or pleased with me.

I've always seen pain as important for life. We can only feel profound peace and joy if we can contrast it with prior pain.

It's the receipt of life itself. If we haven't suffered, then how do we know we've been alive? Fearing pain is fearing life itself. Loving pain is loving life.

Isn't it the definition of death, the point of eternal bliss. Cessation of pain. Death is when nothing happens. Pain is the opposite.

I've always seen pain and pleasure as intrinsically linked. Buddhists interpret this as, if you want to avoid pain, you also need to avoid pleasure, (since pain will always be more). I agree with the premise, I just don't agree with the solution :)

A little less deep, it can also be used to drown out emotional pain. I don't see any fault in this as such, but I think this type of usage requires a very attentive master.

I'm a very hyper active guy and my head has always been a very confusing and raging torrent of thoughts and ideas. If I don't work out every single day, I can't function mentally at the capacity I'd like. Working out, if done with any intensity, is pure pain. I need it to at all be able to think coherent thoughts. Pain is the key to my happiness. And I wouldn't call myself submissive by any stretch.

I agree, it does provide a contrast, a way to "measure" if you like the pleasure against.

Having been a former Mistress and now a very happy sub, I have seen it from both sides. To cause pain to a sub is an incredibly powerful thing, and cannot be separated from the emotional side of things. It is by definition an extremely trusting thing to be allowed to do. As I give my permission vocally for my sub to do things for me, and trust he will do them as I want, so he gives me silent permission (by not saying stop) to hurt him, to let him focus - and that amount of trust is exceptionally special.

I don't think pain should drown out emotion, it can help to focus it and at times understand it.

My master always makes me ask for the pain, to tell me what it is he is going to do for me and let me absorb the thought which is often more intoxicating than the action, and then asks me to ask / beg for it. Submission shouldn't be forced, it should be earned.

i dont have much experience with it yet. but a couple of days ago i found out that pain can be very enjoyable. to me pain makes the pleasure much more intense. i realy like the intence feeling it generates. it makes you focus on your body and forget the things around you. to me it not only makes the place where the pain is aplyed more sensitive but the rest of my body as well wich makes every touch more intense then i have ever felt. and when the pain is finaly released and blood rushes through the area you can feel it sting and get warm.
for me that is a realy intense feeling and enjoy it alot.

as for emotional pain. to me thats a real punishment. i do like to be humiliated. it makes me more aware of myself and focuses my mind on what is going on. but being degraded is the worst for me. its to intense for me.
but i dont realy have much experience with it so i dont realy know where my limits are yet.

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Originally Posted by thrall

The pain of separation from the pain……

What is it about pain that you love?

Is it the emotional pain…..the kind that leaves you emotionally rung out and spent?

Is it the psychical pain……where the body is tortured past endurance?


Both are valid points of pain. Both will leave you drained and exhausted. Both will twist you to blissful numbness.

Is the separation form the pain just as great just as excruciating?? Is the need to give and receive pain…..just as painful when the need is unfulfilled?

for n

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Hello Thrall and All ~

What I Love about the pain is that it brings me to myself and who I am, and therefore to Whom I Submit, in a very open and unguarded way, and on a very deep level. It causes me to Feel nothing outside of Control and Submission, and to think of nothing else but the space I am in.

Answer to the next 2 questions is Yes, oh Yes.

The separation from the pain is just as intense for me, and depending what the separation is about, brings on a whole different set of emotions, also depending. If it is the ending of a session or scene, it takes a Time to level back out to day to day things again. If it is the ending of that Relationship with the One who has the Control, that is more painfull than any physical or emotional pain from a scene or session has ever brought to me. Though certainly in a different way.

On the last question; My experience is that > Once I had developed and Grown to Give my complete Submission to Another (and perhaps in part because I was allowed only One at that Time in this Style?), when that Relationship was ended it was one of the most excruciating things I have ever experienced in Life and Love.

I think once One has Grown to certain levels of this Style, be it Giving or Taking, when those Needs are unfullfilled, that that pain is just as great as the pleasure when those Needs were met.

Just my thoughts and experiences with these things.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

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Originally Posted by sidhewolf

I think once One has Grown to certain levels of this Style, be it Giving or Taking, when those Needs are unfullfilled, that that pain is just as great as the pleasure when those Needs were met.

Just my thoughts and experiences with these things.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

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Speaking from the other side - as a giver, rather than a receiver of pain - the pain and the pleasure are so intermingled in who I am now that one without the other never feels right. Frankly, I can't go vanilla and truly enjoy sex anymore... well, for me, vanilla sex fells more like masturbation - a vital ingredient is missing. And giving pain without giving pleasure is that way for me as well: something is missing. I can be extremely harsh - but in a loving manner (and a community such as this is probably the only kind where I don't have to explain that).

Pain for punishment has increasingly begun to feel perverse to me. Yes, I punish my girl when there is a need to do so, and occasionally will give physical pain during the punishment - but I prefer other methods of punishment now - humiliation, or in extreme cases, a temporary abandonment. But pain only as a means of giving pain? No, as I've matured and settled comfortably into who and what I am, that no longer sits well with me. When my girl cries from the pain now - they are also tears of passion, and the rough use always segues into very gentle and tender moments: moments that can and often do last for hours after a severe session. After-care - but as a form of post-coital play as well - not all sexual, but always very sensual.

Stopping after giving the pain - leaving it there - with her crying just from the pain, hurts me and leaves me feeling incomplete. Some girls find that hard to accept at first, until they realize that the harsher pain they crave, which usually came from punishment with other Masters, can also come with love with me, and that the behaviour which, in the past gave them the punishment they needed, brings punishment they can't tolerate with me as well. As the girl grows into my way of doing things, we both find less and less need for punishment for bad behaviour, and far greater enjoyment in each other.