A Question of Standards

I've been wandering through the library of stories for the last week or so. I haven't posted any reviews for several reasons, which brings me to the reason for this post.

Is it proper to review a story if it isn't to one's taste? I've contributed a few stories so far, stories targeted to a very narrow audience. The reviews have been positive, and I certainly appreciate the comments, but it makes me wonder at how many started to read and gave up, out of boredom, disgust, or whatever.

That's why I haven't posted any reviews. I try to judge by the story codes which ones to look at. Even so I haven't found anything to my taste (admittedly the sample size has been very small so far). Would a review based on my negative experience be of any value?

My first thought was no, it would be of no value to those who do prefer that type of story, and it might discourage the author from writing again. The problem is, there are no objective standards on which to judge the stories in the library. Not everyone is a polished author with a literary degree. Nor is everyone a native speaker in English (yes it does show, no matter how many years of English class in school). The subject matter isn't always to my taste either.

But none of those problems are enough to criticize a story. I'm a firm believer in encouraging everyone to put words on electronic paper, regardless of how well the story goes together. This is an amateur site, a place where we can all give it a try. and we all want to know what others think of the effort, but this brings me back to the original question.

What form should a review take? Should the story be judged on how well it captures the reader's interest, or if the characters are interesting, or if the author's imagination has a unique twist?

What about the negatives? A few minutes ago I had to give up on one story because the grammar in the narrative was so bad the story was unreadable. It would never pass the "read it out loud" test. But I don't want to discourage a first attempt (if it was that, I didn't check). So what should I post? "Needs editing?" or something like that? Fine, but it doesn't address the story content. Or should I skip it?

My choice was to skip it. On an amateur site everyone gets to see the slushpile; so be it. I do have one suggestion though. For all those who don't want/like to write, ever consider volunteering as editor if someone asks for help? Or perhaps the review could include separate ratings for content and editing?
Jack Peacock

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Originally Posted by JakBird

Would a review based on my negative experience be of any value?

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In my opinion, reviews should reflect on the content of the work-- flow of the story, grammar, spelling, storytelling-- and not a reflection upon the 'fetish' of the story being told.

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Originally Posted by GaryWilcox

In my opinion, reviews should reflect on the content of the work-- flow of the story, grammar, spelling, storytelling-- and not a reflection upon the 'fetish' of the story being told.

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Gary, I would disagree with the second half of your statement, assuming that the story is largely (or purports to be largely) about a 'kink' that one likes. How well a writer conveys the 'heat' of an erotic encounter is a very important component on their success-meter, IMO. If I, for example, enjoy heavy, non-consensual stories, it would be wrong NOT to comment on how effectively an author who mentions those motifs in his summary, pushes my buttons.

But I do agree that if one doesn't care for torture or bestiality or snuff or whatever, one should bend over backward to be fair when reviewing a story involving those elements.

Boccaccio

i don't think reviewing literature, especially erotic literature, is an exact science. If the story is 'technically' good, then say so, if it has a few errors but really does it for you in the way the kink has been written, then say that also, if it is written fine but just isn't your 'thing' then there are ways of saying that without saying 'the story was crap' just because it didn't get you off!

sl

To review subjectively or objectively, that is the question.

My personal point of view is that totally subjective reviews aren’t worth the effort of writing, or reading. I actually find this types of feedback puzzling. “I gave your story a low rating because I can’t stand foot fetishes, and yours was full of it.” Well, damn it, why did you read it in the first place then?

On the other hand it’s kind of hard not to be influenced, into giving a glowing review, when reading about a particular fetish that appeals to you, isn’t it? When it’s a subject that excites you it’s just so much easier to skim over any minor hiccups.

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Originally Posted by Jack

Is it proper to review a story if it isn't to one's taste?

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If the author has managed to keep your interest long enough for you to read the story though, then I believe their work probably deserves your rating it and a comment.

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Originally Posted by Jack

Would a review based on my negative experience be of any value?

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Again, I think that would depend on whether your comments, and more particularly your rating, were subjective or objective. The majority of authors here are enthusiastic amateurs, keen to improve their writing skills, who appreciate clear constructive criticism.

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Originally Posted by Jack

I'm a firm believer in encouraging everyone to put words on electronic paper, regardless of how well the story goes together.

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Me too. As a writer yourself, I am sure you understand there are many ways of saying the same thing. “You story sucks!” or “Your story idea is good, and I love the part where …, only I think it could have been great if you had proof read it more carefully … added more detail… taken more care with…” or what ever.

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Originally Posted by Jack

What form should a review take? Should the story be judged on how well it captures the reader's interest, or if the characters are interesting, or if the author's imagination has a unique twist? …
What about the negatives? A few minutes ago I had to give up on one story because the grammar in the narrative was so bad the story was unreadable. It would never pass the "read it out loud" test. But I don't want to discourage a first attempt (if it was that, I didn't check). So what should I post? "Needs editing?" or something like that? Fine, but it doesn't address the story content. Or should I skip it?

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Gary’s advice is a good measure of how to ‘rate’ a story. Adding to that, to review or comment on the story, look for something about it you liked and ,then, tell the author about it. If you can’t find a single thing you liked -- leave it for someone else to rate and review. Look for something that, in your opinion, could have made the story better, and bring it to the author’s attention. If you can't find anything that might have improved the story -- that's great!

You know Jack, it’s a funny thing, one of my favourite authors here, by his own admission left school in ninth grade. His sentence construction is often odd, and his grammar, again by his own admission, ‘isn’t always powerful’, and yet I really enjoy his stories. He has a wonderful imagination and a wicked talent for bringing his characters to living breathing colour, regardless of his lack of formal education. Another of my favourites is, without a doubt, very articulate and well educated. Writing is a funny thing isn’t it?

Alex.

Ok from the first I know my spelling is bad. know for the reason for my adding my two cents worth. If you edit for spelling gramer, punktuation than edit. If you crateek than do that with the story but don't say your doing one when doing the othr, that are not the same. If you like the story but the person cant spell than say you like the story than edit him. But dont say hoe bed his story is becouse he cant spell. And the same goes the other way If he is the pest speller in the world butr the story stinks, than say the spelling is great but your story stinks, and tell him why you don't like it. If he is realy interestecin your apinion than he will take the critasom right, and if not than he better get a thicker skinn before doing anymore storys.

Recently a story I have been working on for some time got two very negative reviews (1/10). Those reviews were quite at variance with most of the others.

What made me feel a little out of sorts about these particular reviews was the reviewers' rationale.

One based his score on the fact that the story has a quasi-religious theme and he felt that I was making fun of religion. He even went so far as to send me a highly critical email. Since I had indicated in the summary that it had a religious theme I feel like he should have not read a story he found objectionable.

The other reviewer was much less forthcoming but attributed the low score to 'bad taste." I never understood that "good taste" was an objective of fictional BDSM writing. I suspect it was the religious theme of the story that engendered the bad taste remark.

My point is that religion with sexual overtones is the "fetish" of this story. Some people found this objectionable and chose to punish the story that I have worked hard to make as good as I possibly can.

While I read a good number of stories on the site, I take a pass at those that do not appeal to me for whatever reason. I would never consider giving a story a low rating or negative review because it's content is not my thing.

Reviewers are free to do as they wish but that does not make their reviews fair and balanced.

I for one love your stories and visit the site every few days just to see if you've added new chapters. My advice, not that you're asking... :cool: ...is just let it roll off your back. Easier said than done, I know, since I imagine that writing must be much like giving birth and that you feel very protective of something of such value that you put so much of yourself into like that. Majority definitely rules here, and the overwhelming opinion is that you're very good.
So, in closing, no worries...*S*.....just do what you do....it's all good, Mr. Berg.....(looking forward to reading more stories from you).....
Sincerely,
Melinda

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Originally Posted by HarryBerg01

Recently a story I have been working on for some time got two very negative reviews (1/10)... One based his score on the fact that the story has a quasi-religious theme and he felt that I was making fun of religion. He even went so far as to send me a highly critical email. Since I had indicated in the summary that it had a religious theme I feel like he should have not read a story he found objectionable.

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Don't give it second thought, Harry, comments like that aren't worth the space they take on your screen. The rating, however, I believe is a different matter, it's totaly unfair for you to have your work down-rated because of one reader's dislikes. I wish people like that, who feel they must air their views, would rate objectively and only comment subjectively. I think that's a much fairer way to deal with a story like this one which is well written but, in one person's opinion, just not in good taste. And, I really think that's probably what Jinn had in mind when he devised feedback format. Jinn?

Alex.

Well Harry you're a very prolific writer and that is highly commendable, but you must expect to rile a few sensitivities and get a backlash. What is there to lose? Do you really give any importance to the overall mark your stories get? Let me tell you, when I look for a story to DL the mark is the very last thing on my mind.

You must allow for a 'squick factor'. Religion is an obvious one even though I personally find it a legitimate source of fantasies. But I've seen you've started a story called 'Abu Ghraib' and I won't ever come close to it. That other reader's explanation, 'poor taste', is a good way of saying readers are entitled to their quirks, squicks and whims too.

Interesting thread. Anyone who constructs a tale should be read in their own rights. Who was it said about a critic that a critic was like a sports commentator: he's seen it done lots of times, but never done it once himself? (Irish Brendan Beehan I think on reflection.)

I supervise grad students who mark 100s of essays from undergrad students. I tell them not to focus on the formalities but to judge the intention. Several evenings spent re-marking piles of essays that I judged were poorly assessed (the overtime was done by the grad tutors, not me!) have left their mark on the collective unconsiousness of the little darlings.

Thus: judge the intentions, not the formalities... unless the presentation is so chaotic that one can't tell what the f**K the intentions are!!!!

It really riles me when I read a critic who takes me to task for my punctuation or grammer who has not even considered that my occasional (hah) 'lapses' may be part of my intention.

I mean, hello! What is this about spelling grammar syntax yada that's cast in stone of some kind? I'd rather read a rough-hewn narrative that speaks from the heart than any amount of smooth talkin nonsense. But then, I always did have a propensity for being the recipient of a bare-ass spanking when my cleaverer older sisters looked like butter was not a meltable substance ANYWHERE on their persons ; - )

I.E. I love it when people express themselves. Do it.

Shel.

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Originally Posted by Michelle Byssom

Interesting thread. Anyone who constructs a tale should be read in their own rights. Who was it said about a critic that a critic was like a sports commentator: he's seen it done lots of times, but never done it once himself? (Irish Brendan Beehan I think on reflection.)

***Or, in another famous quotation, "Those who cannot do, teach".

(snip)

Thus: judge the intentions, not the formalities... unless the presentation is so chaotic that one can't tell what the f**K the intentions are!!!!

It really riles me when I read a critic who takes me to task for my punctuation or grammer who has not even considered that my occasional (hah) 'lapses' may be part of my intention.

I mean, hello! What is this about spelling grammar syntax yada that's cast in stone of some kind? I'd rather read a rough-hewn narrative that speaks from the heart than any amount of smooth talkin nonsense. But then, I always did have a propensity for being the recipient of a bare-ass spanking when my cleaverer older sisters looked like butter was not a meltable substance ANYWHERE on their persons ; - )

I.E. I love it when people express themselves. Do it.

Shel.

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***Well, I suppose rules are made to be broken in literature; see James Joyce. With erotic short stories, though, the importance is in the - communication - of the ideas, feelings, etc. If the story is not easily readable (and that would include those times when people only had one hand available grin grin wink wink say no more), the ideas may not be clear. While to many it means nothing if spelling, grammar, word usage, etc. are not correct, to a large number of fans the mood is broken if they have to struggle to understand the author's meaning.

***In the interests of satisfying ALL readers, I believe it necessary to communicate as clearly as possible.

A few comments, as someone who writes, but who reads fifty stories for every one that I write.

- I agree that a completely Subjective review can be annoying, but so can one that attempts to be completely Objective. I read reviews because I want to know what passions were brought up by the story for each reader, and also because I want to know whether people have similar tastes to me. If they're purely talking about grammar, ability to communicate and spelling, there might as well not be any reviews at all on the site - just do an automatic spelling / grammar check and give a mark based on that.

I think there's some confusion here about subjective/objective, as opposed to constructive/destructive. First rule of reviewing should always be that the writers deserve respect simply for taking the effort to write something and post it here.

- Unlike a film or a radio play, the only way in which communication happens in a written story is through the written word (DUH :p ) . If the writing is so bad that it makes the reader focus more on mentally correcting the spelling, and stopping to rearrange bad grammar in their heads, the 'image' that the story is trying to summon up never materialises. Sure James Joyce broke the rules of language, but he learned them all first, and knew what he was breaking, and why he was doing it. He also knew how to break them while still communicating effectively, and even then, as anyone who's tried to make it through Finnegan's Wake knows, sometimes it works better as a game than a pure aesthetic experience.

- I don't review stories that include fetishes that don't interest me, or turn me off. If I did, I would not be being fair to the writer or to other readers (IMO), as my review would be missing the point of the story. Reviewing erotica is wildly different to marking student essays - I know many people (including professors, etc), who would give some of the stories that are recognised here as classics - ie, ones that have well deserved marks of 9 or 10/10 - a 0/10, based on the fact that they include sexual perversions that they find repulsive.

Having said that, I will criticize stories that I think could have done it for me, but fell short somehow (this is actually rare on this particular site,with the awful exception of stories that are abandoned just as they are heating up).

ps - re-reading the thread just before submitting this, I notice that others have come up with my ideas before, so don't be annoyed at me ... think of it as flattering imitation :D

I believe the simple fact is that if a story was submitted. It is reason enough to submit a review. If you bothered to read it and enjoyed or disliked it.

Think about this.

Obviously the author was looking for a comment or two.

Erotic literature is something of a special type of writing and as such deserves a comment if you enjoyed it or not. I do have a problem with alot of grammer mistakes though. Even though I make alot of them myself. If I submitted a book to a publisher it would of been proofread professionally before submission.

That being said it seems we do have a lot of very gifted authors in this place.
New ones also. I say just keep on keeping on!!!

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Originally Posted by JakBird

Is it proper to review a story if it isn't to one's taste? I've contributed a few stories so far, stories targeted to a very narrow audience. The reviews have been positive, and I certainly appreciate the comments, but it makes me wonder at how many started to read and gave up, out of boredom, disgust, or whatever.

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I think if someone has took the time to read a story they have every right to review it and they are probably doing the author a favour even if it's a bad review as long as their review is constructive criticism. I have read quite a few reviews and I can't say I have come across a review where the reviewer seems to have had the intention of destroying the author's ego. As for the authors they have put put themselves up to be shot down and if someone blows a raspberry that is tough.

People read the stories for different reasons too. My wayward shadow sat behind me right now reads the stories strictly for tittilation and arousal value, which of course I am not going to complain about. If some pervert who has took the time to write down their fantasies means I'm going to be working up a sweat on my dearest because they've hit her where she tickles. I say thank you very much perv. keep the words coming! As for me, I only get tittilated if the plot is plausable and the writing is good.

I wouldn't let it worry you how many people have started to read your story and stopped out of boredom or it's not to the readers taste. You can't please them all. When I submited my stories I knew I would be criticized for lack of sexual content and tittilation value but its been worthwhile as I have had some warming comments. One reviewer said I write well but 'king of sleaze' I ain't, which gave me a good giggle. I'm trying to correct that.

But I agree with you its difficult to know what to put in a review when you have just read some unintelligible garbage. Writing oneself I know how much work goes into it and feel reluctant to tell someone they are wasting their time and as you say this is an amateur site and people are writing stories for more reasons than just the reason of writing. Having started to read many stories to find I haven't the stamina to get to the end of many of them either because of bad writing skills or implausable plots. I do a lot of sifting but that goes with the territory. I'm wondering whether it might be worth if there was a seperate code for deadly serious writers and those who write for fun. Hmm Maybe that's not so bright idea now I think about it.

you are much to hard on yourself. We all haveviews and interest that we know will not appeal to all. What wpuld we do if you werer not critical of what we write or be helpfull with good criticsm. You have been very helpfull to me. I am writing the prologue now. I will give a charcter a in depth of the main characters. The husband sister and wife. We are all selfish in our wants to come first. I would like to give charactures on each one. This may be to lenghty here, as it seems to be a slam bam thank you Mam atmospher aimed at bondage and discipline. In my characters you do know them and I want to have them grow on you either good or bad. emmacd

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Originally Posted by JakBird

I've been wandering through the library of stories for the last week or so. I haven't posted any reviews for several reasons, which brings me to the reason for this post.

Is it proper to review a story if it isn't to one's taste? I've contributed a few stories so far, stories targeted to a very narrow audience. The reviews have been positive, and I certainly appreciate the comments, but it makes me wonder at how many started to read and gave up, out of boredom, disgust, or whatever.

That's why I haven't posted any reviews. I try to judge by the story codes which ones to look at. Even so I haven't found anything to my taste (admittedly the sample size has been very small so far). Would a review based on my negative experience be of any value?

My first thought was no, it would be of no value to those who do prefer that type of story, and it might discourage the author from writing again. The problem is, there are no objective standards on which to judge the stories in the library. Not everyone is a polished author with a literary degree. Nor is everyone a native speaker in English (yes it does show, no matter how many years of English class in school). The subject matter isn't always to my taste either.

But none of those problems are enough to criticize a story. I'm a firm believer in encouraging everyone to put words on electronic paper, regardless of how well the story goes together. This is an amateur site, a place where we can all give it a try. and we all want to know what others think of the effort, but this brings me back to the original question.

What form should a review take? Should the story be judged on how well it captures the reader's interest, or if the characters are interesting, or if the author's imagination has a unique twist?

What about the negatives? A few minutes ago I had to give up on one story because the grammar in the narrative was so bad the story was unreadable. It would never pass the "read it out loud" test. But I don't want to discourage a first attempt (if it was that, I didn't check). So what should I post? "Needs editing?" or something like that? Fine, but it doesn't address the story content. Or should I skip it?

My choice was to skip it. On an amateur site everyone gets to see the slushpile; so be it. I do have one suggestion though. For all those who don't want/like to write, ever consider volunteering as editor if someone asks for help? Or perhaps the review could include separate ratings for content and editing?
Jack Peacock

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You know what’s occurred to me, lately? There’s a whole lot of compaining about reviewers who rate a story down because they don’t like the particular topic. Sure, it's very frustrating and unfair, but what about those who faun over second rate authors who dishes up a plate load average of writing that just happens to appeal to the reader/reveiwer? 10/10 ratings accompanied by a comments like “Oh, I wanked off 10 times while I read this!” for much less than "Excellent. Could complete with published authors" are surely just as unfair, aren' t they?

While it's certainly frustrating to see a good story rated poorly because of content alone, I think perhaps, many average but 'edgy' stories, tend to balance out to what they're probably worth in the long run - an average rating.

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Originally Posted by Alex Bragi

You know what’s occurred to me, lately? There’s a whole lot of compaining about reviewers who rate a story down because they don’t like the particular topic. Sure, it's very frustrating and unfair...

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I have to disagree with you about reviewers being unfair Alex. An author puts their story out there and if someone doesn't like it, for whatever reason, tough. The author needs to get used to it, especially if they have ambitions to go further and try to get published, then they will find out what unfair really means. A reader has the right to like or dislike any story they read, they have after all, taken the time to read the story.

That being said. I don't personally like destructive reviews. I think reviewers do have a moral obligation to be constructive in their criticism even when marking down a story. However, the reality is, authors are dealing in a free market and should learn to laugh off bad reviews.

I admit in my eyes I am surprised at some of the marking in reviews and sometimes wonder if some reviewers think beyond the 'wank factor'. :dunno:

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Originally Posted by PE

I have to disagree with you about reviewers being unfair Alex. An author puts their story out there and if someone doesn't like it, for whatever reason, tough. ...

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Well, yes, but then again... "I gave your story a one because I can't stand stuff.." when 'snuff' has been stated in the story's codes, to me, is very unfair.

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Originally Posted by Alex Bragi

Well, yes, but then again... "I gave your story a one because I can't stand stuff.." when 'snuff' has been stated in the story's codes, to me, is very unfair.

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I think you are getting me mixed up. You have only reviewed one of my stories and you gave it an 8 and snuff hadn't been stated in the codes or at least I don't think so. There are so many codes they become confusing.

I've stopped posting stories myself because without introducing more 'wank factor' I realise I'm wasting my time and am probably posting to the wrong site.

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Originally Posted by ProjectEuropa

I think you are getting me mixed up. You have only reviewed one of my stories and you gave it an 8 and snuff hadn't been stated in the codes or at least I don't think so. There are so many codes they become confusing.

I've stopped posting stories myself because without introducing more 'wank factor' I realise I'm wasting my time and am probably posting to the wrong site.

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Huh? Yes, I remember reveiwing your story, but why would you think I was referring back it to it now?

As for codes - along with the synopsis, they're there for a purpose. If authors and readers use them correctly there shouldn't ever be any reason for the type of ridiculous review I mentioned.

I'm sorry you have decided give up so easily and not post more stories. Personally, I think you write well. I believe your challenge, at this site, would have been to simply 'loosen up' a little on the sex.

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Originally Posted by Alex Bragi

Huh? Yes, I remember reveiwing your story, but why would you think I was referring back it to it now?

I'm sorry you have decided give up so easily and not post more stories. Personally, I think you write well. I believe your challenge, at this site, would have been to simply 'loosen up' a little on the sex.

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Actually I misread your posting. I missed the inverted commas. :o

Maybe I'll give it one more shot.

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Originally Posted by JakBird

Is it proper to review a story if it isn't to one's taste? I've contributed a few stories so far, stories targeted to a very narrow audience. The reviews have been positive, and I certainly appreciate the comments, but it makes me wonder at how many started to read and gave up, out of boredom, disgust, or whatever.
Jack Peacock

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I think that it is entirely proper to review a story and say that it wasn't to your taste. Likewise, I have submitted stories to a narrow audience. The story codes are there such that you only read the ones that appeal to you. Poor use of story codes may broaden the audience, but will broaden the audience to those who are not interested.
Encouragement for the authors is important, but false praise will not encourage them to improve in areas that might be lacking.
What form should a review take? I agree that the story should be judged on how well it captured your interest. If the grammar was so bad that it was un-readable, it didn't interest you. I have rated almost every story that I've read. The ones I didn't rate were those I thought were a 6, and everyone else raved about. It's not helpful to rain on someone's parade. I took a look at one point - my average rating is a bit over a 7.
As an amateur author, I really love it when others leave feedback for me; nobody likes to write into a vaccuum

Well, I posted some reviews myself and I've decided that I will not review a story I don't like. Not because I think it sholdn't be done but becuse:
a) It's qute possible that I just do not understand the story, it might turn me off completely off but I'm aware that someone else will enoy it - so the review 'I hate this because I hate snuff' just isn't fair (and is incorrect to boot)
b) if it is really bad I will not read it trough anyway and, frankly, I just don't like writing things like 'this stinks'. (I know it hurts)

Of course I have criricms of various aspects of stories (and I've been harsh ESPECIALLY if I think the story is very good generally) - but 've at least tried to explain WHY I think something doesn't work in the paricular storiy.
People are welcome to write whatever they like but this:
"one cum - 7, two cums - 8 etc"
just isn't a review.

Thank for listenig, have fun