Walk like an Egyptian

Hot off the pressess:

" Egypt's street protesters pushed President Hosni Mubarak into naming a deputy on Saturday for the first time in his 30 years in power, but many went on defying a curfew, urging the army to join them in forcing Mubarak to quit.

In making intelligence chief Omar Suleiman vice-president, many saw Mubarak edging toward an eventual, military-approved handover of power.

The 82-year-old former general has long kept his 80 million people guessing over succession plans that had, until this week, seemed to focus on grooming his own son.

The elevation of Suleiman, a key player in relations with Egypt's key aid backer the United States, and the appointment of another military man, Ahmed Shafiq, as prime minister, pleased some Egyptians worried about a descent into chaos and looting.

But as top U.S. officials talked at length in the White House about events in the Arab power that is a linchpin of their strategy in the Middle East, demonstrators continued to flock after dark to the squares Cairo and other cities, ignoring a curfew and largely unmolested by troops on foot and in tanks.

"He is just like Mubarak, there is no change," one protester said of Suleiman outside the Interior Ministry, where thousands were protesting. The last vice-president was Mubarak himself, before he succeeded the assassinated Anwar Sadat in 1981.

"This is the Arab world's Berlin moment," said Fawaz Gerges of the London School of Economics. "The authoritarian wall has fallen, and that's regardless of whether Mubarak survives.

"The barrier of fear has been removed. It is really the beginning of the end of the status quo in the region."

STATUS QUO

Of Suleiman, Cairo University politics professor Hassan Nafaa said: "This is a step in the right direction, but I am afraid it is a late step." A senior figure in the military class that has run Egypt for six decades, Suleiman might, Nafaa said, be able to engineer a handover that would satisfy protesters.

"The street will not be convinced by Omar Suleiman at this moment," Nafaa said. "Unless Omar Suleiman addresses the people and says there will be a new system and that Mubarak has handed power over to him and that the military is in control of the situation and has a program of a democratic transition."

Jon Alterman at Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies saw Suleiman as part of the status quo: "The appointment of Omar Suleiman is intended to send a message that if Hosni Mubarak leaves, the regime remains in place ... It is not intended to mollify. It is intended to show resolve."

Many saw Mubarak's concessions -- new faces and a promise of reform, as demanded on the streets and from Washington -- as an echo of those made two weeks ago by Tunisia's Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali. A day later, Ben Ali fled the country, deserted by an army which preferred to back less hated figures in his cabinet.

Tunisians' Internet-fed uprising over economic hardship and political oppression has inspired growing masses of unemployed youth across the Arab world, leaving autocratic leaders worried.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spent two hours on Saturday discussing Egypt at the White House. President Barack Obama spoke to Mubarak on Friday and said he urged him to make good on promises of democracy and economic reform.

Another big donor, Germany, warned Mubarak that European states would hold back cash if his forces crushed the protests.

ISLAMISTS

Mubarak, like other Arab leaders, has long portrayed himself as a bulwark against the West's Islamist enemies. But Egypt's banned opposition movement the Muslim Brotherhood has been only one element in the week's events. It lays claim to moderation.

"A new era of freedom and democracy is dawning in the Middle East," Kamel El-Helbawy, an influential cleric from the Brotherhood said from exile in London. "Islamists would not be able to rule Egypt alone. We should and would cooperate.

Until this week, officials had suggested Mubarak would run again in an election planned for September, which he would be guaranteed to win. If not him, many Egyptians believed, his son, Gamal, 47, could be lined up to run. This now seems impossible.

Suleiman, 74, has long been central in key policy areas, including the Palestinian-Israeli peace process, an issue vital to Egypt's relationship with key aid donor the United States.

Protests continued throughout Saturday. In Cairo, soldiers repelled protesters who attacked a central government building.

Elsewhere, dozens of people approached a military cordon carrying a sign reading "Army and People Together." Soldiers pulled back and let the group through: "There is a curfew," one lieutenant said. "But the army isn't going to shoot anyone."

On the Corniche promenade alongside the River Nile in Cairo, people stayed out after the curfew deadline, standing by tanks and chatting with soldiers who took no action to disperse them.

Earlier on Saturday, several thousand people flocked to central Cairo's Tahrir Square, waving Egyptian flags and pumping their arms in the air in unison. "The people demand the president be put on trial," they chanted.

The scene contrasted with Friday, when police fired teargas and rubber bullets and protesters hurled stones in running battles. Government buildings, including the ruling party headquarters, were set alight by demonstrators.

THE ARMY'S MOMENT

While the police are generally feared as an instrument of repression, the army is seen as a national institution.

Rosemary Hollis, at London's City University, said the army had to decide whether it stood with Mubarak or the people: "It's one of those moments where as with the fall of communism in Eastern Europe they can come down to individual lieutenants and soldiers to decide whether they fire on the crowd or not."

In Alexandria, police used teargas and live ammunition against demonstrators earlier on Saturday. Protests continued in the port city after curfew, witnesses said.

According to a Reuters tally, at least 74 people have been killed during the week. Medical sources said at least 1,030 people were injured in Cairo.

So far, the protest movement seems to have no clear leader or organization. Prominent activist Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Peace Laureate for his work with the U.N. nuclear agency, returned to Egypt from Europe to join the protests. But many Egyptians feel he has not spent enough time in the country.

Britain, Germany and other countries advised their nationals against travel to the main cities hit, a development that would harm Egypt's tourist industry, a mainstay of the economy.

Banks will be shut on Sunday as "a precaution," Central Bank Governor Hisham Ramez told Reuters. The stock market, whose benchmark index tumbled 16 percent in two days, will also be closed on Sunday. The Egyptian pound fell to six-year lows."

What is happening in Egypt and what happened in Tunisia is just great. I wonder how long it takes for the same to happen in Syria, Libya, Jordan, Algeria aso asf.
I also wonder when the western world will realize that kissing dictator's asses just because they're peceived to be the only alternative to islamist rule was a short sighted strategy.
Plus I wonder whether the Israelis realize that they had never had a peace treaty with Egypt but only with the Egypt dictatorship.

Interesting times indeed. And not just for the Arab world.

Don't be too thrilled about it yet. Wait to see just what kind of government is installed. Chances are (just guessing, here) it will be an Islamic Dictatorship, though it won't be called that. Basically, another Iran, or even worse, a Taliban type government. That will not bode well for the rest of the world.

Yeah, true. That's why I said that the west's strategy was maybe not a good one. Maybe it would have been better to try and get them to hold fair elections earlier. Much earlier. Whether it will not bode well for the rest of the world or just for parts of the rest of the world remains to be seen, too.

But even if there will be an Islamic Dictatorship it won't last for long.

Hot off the pressess!
Tens of thousands packed central Cairo Friday, waving flags and singing the national anthem, emboldened in their campaign to oust President Hosni Mubarak after they repelled pro-regime attackers in two days of bloody street fights. The U.S. was pressing Egypt for a swift move toward greater democracy, including a proposal for Mubarak to step down immediately.

Thousands including families with children flowed over bridges across the Nile into Tahrir Square, showing they were not intimidated after Mubarak supporters hurled concrete, metal and firebombs at them and fighters on horses and camels trampled them in fighting that began Wednesday afternoon and lasted until Thursday night. The death toll for the two days rose to 11.

In the wake of the violence, more detailed scenarios were beginning to emerge for a transition to democratic rule after Mubarak's nearly 30-year authoritarian reign. The Obama administration said it was discussing several possibilities with Cairo — including one for Mubarak to leave office now and hand over power to a military-backed transitional government.

Protesters in the square held up signs reading "Now!" in a rally that drew around 100,000 — the largest gathering since the quarter-million who turned out on Tuesday. They labeled the demonstration the "Friday of departure," in hopes it would be the day that Mubarak goes.

Thousands prostrated themselves during noon prayers, and after uttering the prayer's concluding words "God's peace and blessings be upon you" they began chanting their message to Mubarak: "Leave! Leave! Leave!" A man sitting in a wheelchair was lifted — wheelchair and all — over the heads of the crowd and he pumped his arms in the air.

Those joining in passed through a series of beefed-up checkpoints by the military and the protesters themselves guarding the square. In the afternoon, a group of Mubarak supporters gathered in a square several blocks away and tried to move on Tahrir, banging with sticks on metal fences to raise an intimidating clamor. But protesters throwing rocks pushed them back.

The Arabic news network Al-Jazeera said a "gang of thugs" stormed its offices in continuation of attacks on journalists by regime supporters that erupted Thursday. It said the attackers burned the office and damaged equipment.

The editor of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood's website, Abdel-Galil el-Sharnoubi, told the AP that policemen stormed its office Friday morning and arrested 10 to 15 of its journalists. Also clashes with sticks and fists between pro- and anti-government demonstrators erupted in two towns in southern Egypt.

Various proposals for a post-Mubarak transition floated by the Americans, the regime and the protesters share some common ground, but with one elephant-sized difference: The protesters say nothing can be done before Mubarak leaves.

The 82-year-old president insists he will serve out the remaining seven months of his term to ensure a stable process.

"You don't understand the Egyptian culture and what would happen if I step down now," Mubarak said he told President Barack Obama. He warned in an interview with ABC News that chaos would ensue.

Nevertheless, the Obama administration was in talks with top Egyptian officials about the possibility of Mubarak immediately resigning and handing over a military-backed transitional government headed by Vice President Omar Suleiman.

It would prepare the country for free and fair elections later this year, according to U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the continuing sensitive talks. The officials stressed that the United States isn't seeking to impose a solution on Egypt but said the administration had made a judgment that Mubarak has to go soon if there is to be a peaceful resolution.

Suleiman has offered negotiations with all political forces, including the protest leaders and regime's top foe — the Muslim Brotherhood. On the agenda are constitutional changes needed to ensure a free vote ahead of September presidential elections to replace Mubarak, who since protests began has publicly committed for the first time that he would not seek re-election.

The amendments would include provisions to ensure independent supervision of elections, a loosening of now-suffocating restrictions on who can run for president and term limits for the president.

Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei, one of the leaders of the protest movement, laid out his scenario on Friday: a transitional government headed by a presidential council of two or three figures, including a military representative.

ElBaradei said he respects Suleiman as someone to negotiate with over the transition, but did not address whether he should have any presidential role.

The protesters in Tahrir have not seemed to have a unanimous view on Suleiman, a military man who was intelligence chief and Mubarak's top aide until being elevated to vice president last week. Some are willing to see him head any transitional government, others view him as too much of a regime figure and demand he go too.

ElBaradei repeated the protesters' condition that Mubarak must leave immediately before there can be negotiations with the government over the nation's future.

"He should hear the clear voice coming from the people and leave in dignity," ElBaradei told a press conference. "The quicker he leaves in dignity the better it is for everybody."

But he underlined that the protest movement is not seeking "retribution" or a complete purge. "Not everyone who worked with the regime should be eliminated," he said. "There will be no severance with the history and past of Egypt."

There were other potential difference with Suleiman's scenario. ElBaradei said the constitutional changes must include greater freedom to form political parties, which now effectively need the approval of Mubarak's ruling party. Protesters also demand the lifting of the emergency law in place for the entirety of Mubarak's rule, giving security forces near unlimited powers.

Suleiman has mentioned neither issue, though he said the regime is willing to discuss far-reaching changes.

Another issue is timeframe. Suleiman spoke of completing constitutional changes by July to hold presidential elections in September. ElBaradei said that was not enough time to uproot a system that has ruled for decades through a monopoly on politics and widespread election fraud to ensure a proper vote.

"People are not stupid not to understand that this is not really a genuine desire to go for reform," he said of the July/September schedule.

Instead, he said, the presidential council should rule for a year under a temporary constitution, during which time a permanent document would be drawn up and only afterward elections held.

One self-professed potential candidate — Arab League chief Amr Moussa — appeared in the square for the first time Friday, his convoy greeted by chants of "we want you as president, we want you as president." Moussa, previously a former foreign minister under Mubarak, has an elder statesman appeal for some Egyptians, boosted by the tough rhetoric he takes on Israel.

Asked earlier by France's Europe 1 radio if he would consider a role in the transitional government or eventually running for president, Moussa replied, "Why say no?"

Another visitor to the square Friday: Egyptian Defense Minister Hussein Tantawi, mingled with protesters and held friendly but heated discussions. He told most of their demands have been met and they should go home. he was the highest level government figure to visit the square in more than 10 days of demonstrations.

At Tahrir, soldiers checked IDs to ensure those entering were not police in civilian clothes or ruling party members and performed body searches at the square's entrances, a sign that Egypt's most powerful institution was sanctioning the demonstration.

The atmosphere was peaceful after the 48 hours of violence between pro- and anti-Mubarak crowds battling with rocks and concrete torn from the pavement and shields fashioned out of sheet metal from a construction site. In addition to the 11 killed, about 900 were injured.

Gangs backing Mubarak attacked journalists and human rights activists across Cairo Thursday, while others were detained by soldiers.

The pro-Mubarak crowds that have attacked demonstrators and foreign journalists did not have a visible presence in Tahrir on Friday.

On the other side of Cairo, dozens of regime supporters carrying machetes and sticks set up an impromptu checkpoint on the ring-road highway encircling the city of 18 million, stopping cars to inspect them and ask for IDs. The roadblock appeared to be looking for protesters heading to Tahrir. One of the armed men wore a sign around his neck reading, "We are sorry, Mr. President."

In Tahrir, protesters formed their own cordon inside the military's to perform a secondary check of IDs and bags. Many of those arriving brought fresh bread, water, fruit and other supplies, and the atmosphere was relaxed. Long lines formed at tables of people handing out tea and bread. Many waved the Egyptian flag or chatted amicably with the soldiers. Women in full face veils and enveloping robes stood close to others in blue jeans and tight tops.

Around the square were makeshift clinics, set up in the entranceways of stores, including a KFC. At one, a man received an injection in his arm. Above another was the sign of an interlocking crescent and cross — a symbol of Muslim and Christian unity.

Around 5,000 of the protesters prostrated themselves in prayer at noon. Though men and women prayed separately as is traditional, the women knelt in a block parallel to the men instead of behind them out of sight or in a separate area entirely as takes place in most Egyptian mosques.

A number of celebrities of Egyptian cinema and TV joined the march, including Sherihan, a beloved screen beauty from the 1980s and early 1990s who largely disappeared from the public eye because of health issues.

"This is really a popular revolution, it's civilized and honorable," she told Al-Jazeera TV.

Mohammed Rafat al-Tahtawi, the spokesman of state-run Al-Azhar Mosque, the country's pre-eminent Islamic institution, announced on Al-Jazeera that he had resigned from his position to join the protesters.

"We're calling on this to be the largest protest ever," said Mahmoud Salem, a youth activist and blogger. "We are hoping it will be the last one." He said that during Thursday's turmoil, his car was attacked by regime supporters as he and four friends tried to deliver supplies to the square. He said the rioters relentlessly smashed the car windows and ripping off the side mirrors until he and his colleagues fled from the car.

"It was like a zombie movie," he said.

Dictators come and dictators go. The West just needs to bankroll whichever ruler is in charge - doesn't matter who, so long as Western business interests come first.

In this case, it depends on the Army. The Generals will do whatever is needed to keep US funding, supposing China doesn't decide to offer more (like Soviet Russia once did).

well guy ,I don't think it would be ever Dictatorship cause these millions of demonstrators went out asking for more democracy -and their first demand is to change the regime ..

besides the biggest islamic political group is muslim brotherhood says that they believes in democracy and they committed that they won't go for the presidency in the elections of sept .

That may all be true, but doesn't mean things won't change. The revolt in Iran was supposedly over democracy, too. Freedom from the tyrannical dictatorship of the Shah. Look what they wound up with. I still say we need to hold our breath over Egypt. A pro-terrorist government in charge of the Suez Canal could be disastrous for much of Europe.

i would never think that there would be a pro-terrorist government in Egypt , muslim brotherhood are not terrorist - and they even won't won any elections as they are not so popular and most of Egyptian don't want them .

In iran ,its different ,the west chose to kill the revolution so Iranians saw the west as enemies and the west mustn't do the same again in Egypt cause most of people here now think that Mubarak still exist because of the help he's getting from countries like USA

btw ,in Iran ,they have democracy ,but democracy with boundaries ,these boundaries embodies in the Guide of the republic ,Iran would be a democratic county if they get rid of him or limite his powers
and people in Egypt are aware of such mistakes and we don't want to repeat it

I don't think that any of those Arab nations will become islamic pro-terrorist nations. Unlike the folks in Afghanistan or Yemen or Somalia there is a broad class of people with universitary education in Egypt or Tunisia.

Also, the people aren't stupid enough not to see that islamic and/or pro-terrorist nations are one helluva fail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klad0089

i would never think that there would be a pro-terrorist government in Egypt , muslim brotherhood are not terrorist - and they even won't won any elections as they are not so popular and most of Egyptian don't want them.

---

It's nice to hear from someone on the scene. Welcome, klad. You should have a better idea of what's happening than anyone else here.

I'm not all that concerned with the Muslim Brotherhood. As you say, they aren't all that popular and they have declared that they won't try for the Presidency at any rate. What worries me is the establishment of some form (or ANY form, for that matter) of Sharia Law, allowing the Islamic hierarchy broad powers within the state, effectively setting up a religious dictatorship. No matter who gets elected as President, he will have to bow to the clerics who will really run the country. As in Iran and many other countries.

Quote:

---

In iran ,its different ,the west chose to kill the revolution so Iranians saw the west as enemies and the west mustn't do the same again in Egypt cause most of people here now think that Mubarak still exist because of the help he's getting from countries like USA

---

I have no problem with people viewing the US as an enemy. Hell, in some ways we probably are. While the hearts and minds of the US people are with the people of Egypt, or Iran, or Iraq, US politicians are more concerned with how much money their corporate leash-holders can squeeze from these countries.

Quote:

---

btw ,in Iran ,they have democracy ,but democracy with boundaries ,these boundaries embodies in the Guide of the republic ,Iran would be a democratic county if they get rid of him or limite his powers

---

Not sure what you mean by "Guide of the republic", but the democracy in Iran is a sham, not too unlike the phony democracy of the old Soviet Union or the current regime in Egypt, even. Even Ahmadinejad's powers are constrained by the Sharia Court, which holds the real power in the country. And I'm pretty sure none of the members of that court were elected by the people.

Quote:

---

and people in Egypt are aware of such mistakes and we don't want to repeat it

---

That's good to hear. Now let's hope that the people are actually able to establish a democratically elected government, and are not swept aside by an even worse dictator than Mubarak.

Quote:

---

What worries me is the establishment of some form (or ANY form, for that matter) of Sharia Law, allowing the Islamic hierarchy broad powers within the state, effectively setting up a religious dictatorship. No matter who gets elected as President, he will have to bow to the clerics who will really run the country. As in Iran and many other countries.

---

whats sharia ? the islamic sharia itself recommends the civil state not a cleric one ,yes some radical islamics interpret sharia in different way but they're so so few and all over my life i have never met one of them in person ,know why ? cause 1- they're minority ...so how can minority take control of the scene !!
2- most of them were kicked out of Egypt during the 70th and 80th ,the rest were sent to prisons after the Luxur violence in 1997 ,even some of them gave up their radical ideas after 1997

so they don't really exist but what happens that the dectators intimidates you by telling you that if they fall then radicals would gain the power but in fact its just a trick to get external support for their repressing regimes

Quote:

---

I have no problem with people viewing the US as an enemy. Hell, in some ways we probably are. While the hearts and minds of the US people are with the people of Egypt, or Iran, or Iraq, US politicians are more concerned with how much money their corporate leash-holders can squeeze from these countries.

---

the relationship between US and Egypt is based on mutual interest ,thats why I doubts that the next ruler of Egypt -no matter what- will ruin that relation , yes US needs Egypt but guess what ,Egypt needs US as well
the thing is US still shows support to Mubarak regime , Obama's envoy to Egypt said 2 days ago that Mubarak must be supported !! ,after seeing millions in streets shouting Mubarak out ,the amserican envoy still thinks about supporting Mubarak

Quote:

---

Not sure what you mean by "Guide of the republic", but the democracy in Iran is a sham, not too unlike the phony democracy of the old Soviet Union or the current regime in Egypt, even. Even Ahmadinejad's powers are constrained by the Sharia Court, which holds the real power in the country. And I'm pretty sure none of the members of that court were elected by the people.

---

Guide of republic is Ali Khamenei , he's supposed to be a judge between the political parties in Iran but the constitution their gives him many authorities ,these authorities make him the true leader of Iran and yes people don't choose him directly but he's chosen through a committee ,it would be so good for them to get rid of him
btw ,the democracy in Iran has nothing to do with the one in the soviet union ,they can choose president freely ,and president can't stay for more than 8 years ,also they have parties

again ,you don't really know what is sharia ,its not sharia's fault that these dictators are that way ,the sharia says that people should choose their leader but these dictators intimidate everyone showing them that they're defending something ,for external parties ,they're defending the civil state so that it won't fall in the hands of radicals
and for internal parties ,they're defending their honor ,religion ...whatever

<< Would like to thank Klad for having the courage to come forth and post here. I am glad he has internet access at all. It is hard to find out what is really happening over there.

<<<doesnt like how my government is attempting to softly support the current regime there while the people of America appear to obviously want the egyptian people to be free.

I will be praying that my brother's and sisters in Egypt find which ever form of government they mutually desire for themselves after they over throw their dictator.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by denuseri

<< Would like to thank Klad for having the courage to come forth and post here. I am glad he has internet access at all. It is hard to find out what is really happening over there.

<<<doesnt like how my government is attempting to softly support the current regime there while the people of America appear to obviously want the egyptian people to be free.

I will be praying that my brother's and sisters in Egypt find which ever form of government they mutually desire for themselves after they over throw their dictator.

---

thank you my dear for your nice words and your prayings as well :)

well ,now ,its supposed to be a negotiations going on between the regime and the opposition ,its mainly about changing the constitution so people can candidate for presidency freely and the president can't stay longer than 2 periods

in my opinion US will play a considerable part in the transition ,cause US can press or influence the Army's leader (who have the true authorities right now in Egypt) to execute its agenda ,so we will see whether the united states will support a democratic transition or will endeavor to form another dictatorship ...!!!
if the 2d thing happen ,then i would expect volience cause people will never accept that ,US has a bad history supporting the dictatorships ,we all remember what had happened in Chile when US supported a coup over a democracy there ...

YAY ..........WE DID IT

its believed now that Mubarak is going to give a step-down speach in hours ....YAY :)

WOOOTZ!!! I am so happy to hear this news...will he then leave the country?

euh .....it was ...disappointingly disappointing .. :(
he hasn't stepped down ......demonstrations will continue tomorrow noon....!!!

sighs...the GRRRRRRRRRS.

GOOD LUCK Im rooting for you all!

Egypt's powerful military tried to defuse outrage over President Hosni Mubarak's refusal to step down, assuring it would guarantee promised reforms. But hundreds of thousands only grew angrier, deluging squares in at least three major cities Friday and marching on presidential palaces and the state TV building, key symbols of the authoritarian regime.

A day after handing most of his powers to his vice president, Mubarak flew to the Sinai resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, some 250 miles away from the turmoil. He has a palace there where he often lives and works during the winter.

The army's new message Friday was the latest in a series of unusual moves by Egypt's most powerful institution over the past two days. It gave the strong impression that it was in control of the country's political transition.

Still, their statement, which tacitly consented to Mubarak's plans, was a profound disappointment to protesters who called for the military to step in and oust him completely. Despite the transfer of powers, Mubarak retains his title and could in theory take back his authorities. In his speech Thursday night he spoke as if he was still very much in charge.

Shock that Mubarak did not step down on Thursday turned to rage on Friday, and protests escalated.

"What are you waiting for?" one protester yelled in the face of an army officer outside Mubarak's main palace, Oruba, in northern Cairo, where a crowd of demonstrators grew to more than 5,000, with more flowing in. "Did you pledge your allegiance to the president or the people?" another shouted.

The palace was protected by four tanks and rolls of barbed wire, but soldiers did nothing to stop more people from joining the rally. In fact, they threw biscuits and cookies through the palace gates to protesters, who laughed and joked with them.

The march on the palace were the first by protesters who for nearly three weeks have centered their mass demonstrations in Cairo's downtown Tahrir Square.

More than 10,000 tore apart military barricades in front of the towering State Television and Radio building, a pro-Mubarak bastion that has aired constant commentary supporting him and dismissing the protests. They swarmed on the Nile River corniche at the foot of the building, beating drums and chanting, "Leave! Leave! Leave!" They blocked employees from entering, vowing to silence the broadcast.

Soldiers in tanks in front of the building did nothing to stop them, though state TV continued to air.

"The employees have been perpetuating lies and haven't been broadcasting the real message, feelings, and voice of the Egyptian people," said Mahmoud Ahmed, a 25-year-old graphic designer. "Nobody in Egypt feels like they know what is happening because state television is lying to them."

The protesters shouted, "We are here, where is Al-Jazeera." The pan-Arab news network has aired blanket coverage of the demonstrations, largely positive, and has been targeted by the government.

Other protesters massed outside the Cabinet and parliament buildings, both largely empty, several blocks from Tahrir.

Tahrir Square was packed shoulder-to-shoulder with a crowd that rivaled the quarter-million figure of the biggest protests, stunned by Mubarak's blunt determination not to bend in the face of the biggest mass uprising in Egypt's history, now in its 18th day.

More than 100,000 massed in the main square in Egypt's second biggest city, Alexandria. In the afternoon, the giant crowd marched toward Ras el-Tin Palace, Mubarak's main residence in the city, with thousands more joining their ranks to fill a long stretch of the main seaside boulevard on the Mediterranean.

In Assiut, the main city of southern Egypt, about 40,000 protesters, including thousands who streamed in from nearby villages, marched down the main avenue, chanting for Mubarak to go. Thousands set base around the main security headquarters, guarded by riot police, and others headed toward the provincial government headquarters, guarded by the army. "You go along with your regime, Mubarak," the protesters shouted.

In the multiple demonstrations, protesters vowed they were more determined than ever and continued to try to win military support, chanting "the people and the army are one hand."

"Entire nation is on the streets. Only way out is for regime to go. People power can't be crushed. We shall prevail. Still hope army can join," read a Tweet on Friday from Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei, whose supporters are among the youth activists organizing the protest movement.

In Cairo's Tahrir, a Muslim cleric urged the protesters never to give up in a sermon to tens of thousands of protesters seated in row after row sweeping across the sprawling plaza and over military vehicles.

"We lived long years where no one could speak a word ... Today we tell this regime to go," he said. "We will pray in this square this Friday and the Friday after and the Friday after and we will defend our dignity.

The Armed Forces Supreme Council, the military's highest body, depicted itself as the champion of reform in its latest statement, trying to win the trust of an angry and skeptical population with a new statement Friday titled "Communique No. 2," following a similar announcement a day earlier.

It promised to make sure Mubarak lifts hated emergency laws immediately once protests end, saying the law should go "immediately after the end of the current circumstances." Mubarak and Suleiman had only given a vague timetable for ending the law — when security permits.

The law, in place since 1981, gives police and security forces almost unlimited powers of arrest, which opponents say they have used to crush dissent. Police are also accused of widespread use of torture.

The Supreme Council, made up of the military's top generals and heads of branches, said it was keeping tabs on Mubarak's transfer of powers. It said it would make sure that Mubarak and Suleiman — both military men — stuck to their promises for reform.

The armed forces, it said, "are committed to shepherding the legitimate demands of the people and to work for their implementation within a defined timetable until achieving a peaceful transition all through a democratic society."

It promised to prevent any retaliation against or arrest of protesters, whom it called "the honorable sons of the nation who rejected corruption and demanded reform."

It also called for public services to resume and urged "the return of normal life in order to safeguard the achievements of our glorious people."

Hopes that Mubarak would resign had been raised Thursday when the military council issued its Communique No. 1, announcing it had stepped in to secure the country, and a senior commander told protesters in Tahrir Square that all their demands would soon be met.

Instead, several hundred thousand people watched in disbelief and anger as Mubarak refused to step down in his televised address several hours later. It remains unknown whether the generals had wanted Mubarak to resign outright and he resisted, resulting in a compromise of the transfer to Suleiman — but the confusion Thursday suggested that deputizing Suleiman had not been the generals' preferred choice.

Suleiman has led the regime's efforts to deal with the crisis since protests first erupted on Jan. 25, but his attempts largely failed. Protests spirally even further out of control, growing in size and inspiring widespread labor protests, with the movement widely distrusting Suleiman's promises of reform.

Now we can celebrate?

Nadia El-Awady is the president of the World Federation of Science Journalists. She has written for a variety of Egyptian and international media organizations. She has also managed training programs for Egyptian journalists for the International Center for Journalists...the following is her report from Egypt:





"I'm an Egyptian revolutionary! And I helped topple a dictator!"

That was the message I tweeted to the world soon after learning that Egyptian President Mohammed Hosni Mubarak had finally stepped down.

The rush of emotions I have felt since hearing the news has been almost crippling at times.

The Egyptian people had lived under a single dictatorial ruler for 30 years. It took less than three weeks for this regime to crumble.

[ For complete coverage of politics and policy, go to Yahoo! Politics ]


For 18 days, more than 300 had died at the hands of the police and thugs reportedly leashed by the regime itself. Thousands were injured. Hundreds camped out in Tahrir Square, a majority with not much more than a single blanket to protect themselves from the elements. And yet millions of others marched day after day, voicing their demands that Mubarak and his regime leave.

During those 18 days, I marched, ran from tear gas and live ammunition, and then I marched some more. I visited Tahrir Square almost every day. I took pictures, I shot film, and at times I joined the protesters myself.

For the most part, when they were not being attacked, the mood among protestors was almost like a party; Tahrir Square felt like a carnival. On every corner, people sang, danced, recited poetry, discussed politics and, of course, marched round and round and round and round calling for an end to the regime.

Many displayed the sense of humor for which Egyptians are known all over the Arab world. One man held up a sign that said: "Leave now. I really need a shower." Others acted out comedic plays and sketches. A protester dressed up like a soccer referee and walked around the square blowing through his whistle and waving a red card that said "leave".

Another group of protesters who had come to Cairo from Sharqiya, a region 50 miles north of the capital, took off their shoes and used them to spell the word "leave". Showing the sole of your shoe has long been considered an insult in Arab culture.

On the night of Thursday, February 10, Mubarak made his third speech to the Egyptian public. All day, rumors had filled the square that he would resign that night. People from all over the capital left their homes and headed to Tahrir Square, in anticipation of a celebration. When he said instead that he would not step down until he had presided over a transition of power himself, almost every single man, woman and child who was in the square raised their shoes in indignation. Mubarak was not listening.

Many woke up Friday expecting the day to turn into a blood bath. Mubarak and Omar Suleiman, the long-time head of the Egyptian intelligence services who Mubarak had named as his vice president shortly after the demonstrations began, implied that they would not tolerate continued disruption in the country. Since the police had not yet appeared back on the streets, this left only the army to impose an end to the protests.

But the people had absolutely no intention of backing down.

Like so many others, I left my home Friday morning not knowing whether I'd live to return. I was equipped with nothing but my camera and a bandanna to protect myself from tear gas.

If any force was used against the protesters, they had nothing to protect themselves with. We had already seen so many die at the hands of police and thugs . Nevertheless, protesters left their homes armed only with their determination and the will to make a better country for themselves.

I arrived at around noon in front of the Presidential Palace, where throngs of protesters had gathered.  For the most part, the day turned out to be uneventful. People socialized, stopping to chant every now and then. Numbers began to swell in the mid-afternoon when thousands more poured in from Tahrir Square, 20 kilometers away.  Some waved flags and chanted, but mostly people waited in anticipation. Several times protesters chanted "The people and the army are together as one", as if urging the military to stay on the side of the people.

At 5:41 pm, the call for prayers rang out in the square in front of the presidential palace. Hundreds gathered to pray while others stood around, watching and waiting. We had heard news earlier that the president's office was going to make a statement. After Mubarak's speech from the night before, we weren't expecting much.

I called my family at home and asked that they call me and place the phone near the TV as soon as the statement started so that I could hear along with them. Sunset prayers ended and only minutes afterwards my phone rang. It was 6:03 pm. Just as my phone rang a roar exploded in the crowd. I could not hear my sister on the other end. No one near me knew exactly why the crowd was roaring.

It took a minute or two of struggling until my sister's words finally broke through: "The President has resigned."

I can't even remember shutting the phone. My best friend Arwa, who was among the throngs, ran up to me in tears saying, "He's gone, Nadia. He's gone!" We hugged and cried, then hugged complete strangers and cried with them. We roared and sang and chanted along with the thousands in front of the Presidential Palace, "The people…indeed…have toppled the regime."

The throngs almost immediately left the square in front of the palace and started marching towards Tahrir Square. Chants of "Here are the Egyptians…here, here, here," and "Egyptians, raise your heads and be proud," rang everywhere on the streets of Heliopolis, where the presidential palace lies. As I marched along with the crowd, I began to shoot video of the celebration.

Fireworks erupted from apartment building balconies, cars took to the streets and people honked their hearts out. Flags were everywhere. People hugged army officers as they passed; it was the most jubilant scene I have ever witnessed or taken part of in my life. And over and over, one chant was repeated: "Martyrs, you can now rest in peace."

As jubilant protesters marched, we all reiterated to each other that we have honored the blood of those who had died. We had done this for them and for the future generations of Egypt.

Tahrir Square was a beehive of activity. By the time I arrived, the exhaustion of three weeks of protests had begun to set in. I made a quick round of the overcrowded square. I only stopped once. I saw an elderly couple I had photographed three nights earlier in the square. That night they were holding hands waving the Egyptian flag in support of protesters. On Friday night, they were walking through Tahrir, holding hands, waving the flag, a huge smile on their face.

I went to them. "I saw you the other night. I was so proud of you. I wanted to come to you now and say congratulations," I told them. We all hugged and cried and congratulated each other. We took pictures together. The smiles on their faces were priceless.

I walked home from Tahrir Square with my friend Arwa waving what was probably the 13th flag she had bought in as many days. We greeted cars on the way and sang with people riding in them.

The second I arrived home, my legs gave way. For 18 days, I had marched and marched and they carried me through. But they now needed a rest.

I slipped into a deep sleep and got up around 6 o'clock on Saturday morning to pray the dawn prayers. As I tried to go back to sleep afterwards, I shed tears for the Egyptians who had died for their country.

I felt proud to have stood with them shoulder to shoulder. I felt proud to have stood my ground when things got rough in the following days of the revolution. I felt I had honored their deaths. I felt proud that my children finally had a chance to live a life of freedom. My greatest sense of pride came from how my fellow Egyptians handled themselves through those toughest of times, honorably, in style, with a great sense of humor. Egyptians had shown the world that we were a peaceful nation, even at times of revolution.

Today, and everyday henceforth, I am proud to be an Egyptian.

Looks like it is spreading to other countries now:

The possible heirs of Egypt's uprising took to the streets Monday in different corners of the Middle East: Iran's beleaguered opposition stormed back to central Tehran and came under a tear gas attack by police. Demonstrators faced rubber bullets and birdshot to demand more freedoms in the relative wealth of Bahrain. And protesters pressed for the ouster of the ruler in poverty-drained Yemen.

The protests — all with critical interests for Washington — offer an important lesson about how groups across Middle East are absorbing the message from Cairo and tailoring it to their own aspirations.

The heady themes of democracy, justice and empowerment remain intact as the protest wave works it way through the Arab world and beyond. What changes, however, are the objectives. The Egypt effect, it seems, is elastic.

"This isn't a one-size-fits-all thing," said Mustafa Alani, a regional analyst at the Gulf Research Center in Dubai. "Each place will interpret the fallout from Egypt in their own way and in their own context."

For the Iranian opposition — not seen on the streets in more than a year — it's become a moment to reassert its presence after facing relentless pressures.

Tens of thousands of protesters clashed with security forces along some of Tehran's main boulevards, which were shrouded in clouds of tear gas in scenes that recalled the chaos after the disputed re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in June 2009. A pro-government news agency reported one bystander killed by gunfire.

"Death to the dictator," many yelled in reference to Ahmadinejad. Others took aim Iran's all-powerful Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei with chants linking him with toppled rulers Hosni Mubarak in Egypt and Tunisia's Zine Al Abidine Ben Ali.

"Bin Ali, Mubarak, it's Seyed Ali's turn," protesters cried.

The reformist website kaleme.com said police stationed several cars in front of the home of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi ahead of the demonstration. Mousavi and fellow opposition leader Mahdi Karroubi have been under house arrest since last week after they asked the government for permission to hold a rally in support of Egypt's uprising — which Iran's leaders have claimed was a modern-day replay of their 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Karroubi and Mousavi, however, have compared the unrest in Egypt and Tunisia with their own struggles. Mousavi said all region's revolts aimed at ending the "oppression of the rulers."

A new U.S. State Department Twitter account in Farsi took a jab at Iran in one of its first messages Sunday, calling on Tehran to "allow people to enjoy same universal rights to peacefully assemble, demonstrate as in Cairo."

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton expressed support for the Iranian protesters, saying they "deserve to have the same rights that they saw being played out in Egypt and are part of their own birthright."

In Yemen, meanwhile, the protests are about speeding the ouster of the U.S.-allied president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, who has promised he would step down in 2013.

Monday's protests mirrored the calls in Egypt and Tunisia against the leaders there who had been in power for decades: "The people want the regime to step down."

Protesters in the tiny Gulf nation of Bahrain are not looking to topple its monarchy. But their demands are no less lofty: greater political freedom and sweeping changes in how the country is run.

The next possible round of demonstrations gives a similar divide.

A coalition in Algeria — human rights activists, unionists, lawyers and others — has called protests Saturday to push for the end of President Abdelaziz Bouteflika's 12-year rule. Kuwait's highly organized opposition, including parliament members, plans gatherings March 8 to demand a wholesale change of cabinet officials, but not the ruling emir.

"We are experiencing a pan-Arab democratic moment of sorts," said Shadi Hamid, director of research at The Brookings Doha Center in Qatar. "For opposition groups, it comes down the question of, 'If not now, when?'"

But he noted that the newfound Arab confidence for change will go in various directions.

"The Arab opposition are using the Egyptian model as a message that anything is possible," Hamid said. "Then they interpret that into their local context."

In Yemen, more than 1,000 people, including lawyers in their black courtroom robes, joined a fourth consecutive day of protests in the capital of Sanaa — a day after police attacked anti-government marchers with sticks and daggers. Human Rights Watch said police on Sunday also used stun guns and batons to disperse protesters.

"We will continue our protests until the regime falls," independent lawmaker Ahmed Hashid said.

Police separated the opposition rally from a hundred government supporters holding pictures of the president.

Bahrain was more violent. Security forces fired tear gas, rubber bullets and birdshot pellets at thousands of anti-government protesters heeding calls to unite in a major rally and bring the Arab reform wave to the Gulf for the first time. At least 25 people were injured, and one man died after suffering severe head trauma.

Police later used vans and other vehicles to block main roads into the capital of Manama to prevent a mass gathering that organizers intended as an homage to Egypt's Tahrir Square.

Social media sites have been flooded with calls by an array of political youth groups, rights activists and others to join demonstrations Monday, a symbolic day in Bahrain as the anniversary of the country's 2002 constitution that brought pro-democracy reforms such as an elected parliament.

But opposition groups seek deeper changes from the country's ruling dynasty, including transferring more decision-making powers to the parliament and breaking the monarchy's grip on senior government posts. Bahrain's majority Shiites — about 70 percent of the population — have long complained of systemic discrimination by the Sunni rulers.

The nation — no bigger in area than New York City — is among the most politically volatile in the Gulf. A crackdown on perceived dissidents last year touched off riots and street battles in Shiite areas.

Some protesters carried mock Valentine's Day greetings from a prominent Bahraini blogger in custody, Ali Abdul-Imam.

"Arabs have been inspired by Egypt and empowered to believe that their voices must be heard and respected," wrote James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, in a commentary in Abu Dhabi's The National newspaper. "It will make life more complicated for Western and Arab policy makers."

Monday's unrest touched on two key points of Washington's Mideast constellation.

Bahrain is home to the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, one of the Pentagon's main counterweights to Iran's attempts to expand influence in the Gulf. Yemen's militant networks offer safe haven for al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, which has planned and launched several attack against the U.S., including the attempted airliner bombing on Christmas Day 2009 and the failed mail bomb plot involving cargo planes last summer.

The U.S. military plans a $75 million training program with Yemen's counterterrorism unit to expand its size and capabilities in the nation's difficult mountain terrain. Last month, the U.S. also delivered four Huey helicopters to Yemen and has been training the aviation units.

"What has happened in Tunisia and Egypt has terrified pro-Western Arab rulers," said Fawaz Gerges, a professor of Middle Eastern politics at the London School of Economics.

"One of the lessons that the U.S. will take from current unrest is that the status quo is no longer sustainable," he added. "There are huge cracks in the Arab authoritarian wall. It's the end of an era and the U.S. must make very tough choices and decisions."

Turkish President Abdullah Gul, who is visiting Iran, urged governments in the Middle East to listen to the their people.

"When leaders and heads of countries do not pay attention to the demands of their nations, the people themselves take action to achieve their demands," the official Islamic Republic News Agency quoted Gul as saying.

Quote:

---

"Each place will interpret the fallout from Egypt in their own way and in their own context."

---

thats exactly whats going on now through the middle east ,everyone has his own explination which goes with his point of view

anyway ..,as i see now ,there're hot spots for revolutions in : Algeria ,Yemen ,Bahrain and Iran ,

in Algeria ,its so hard there for the revolution to be done ,as the corruption there is done by generals in the Algerian Army so the people will have to revolt against both police and the Army and thats so hard ...,in both Egypt and Tunisia ,the Army helped the revolution and that whats not gonna happen in the Algerian case

in Yemen .., no external parties will support any kind of revolutions in Yemen ,in fact all the region (especially KSA ) and the west will do their best to stop any kind of revolt in Yemen
the reason why the regional countries in the middle east will work against it is to stop the revolutions march through the middle east
and for west countries cause al-qa'ada is strong in Yemen and they are afraid that they might gain
more power there

In Bahrain , the suni minority rules the country ..,but again all the region will help the regime ...oh ,and the US too cause the regime there is so friendly to US besides the oppositions there are friends to Iran ...

finally in Iran ...,I really hope the revolution will success there but to admit its so hard for some reasons ,like ,the regime of Iran has a big supports who believe in it
there're a huge number of Iranian people who are poor or not educated who like and support Ahmadi nijad cause during his presidency period ,he took good care of them
so the regime of Iran won't be alone against the opposition but it has a supports who will keep its stability

As a sideline, I would love to know how the US conservatives are treating the Libyan uprising.

Because up till now they have taken it for granted, as Thorne did, that if the people are against the government they must be for an Islamist state (or at the very least, if they get democracy they might vote for Islamists) and therefore the whole thing was a disaster. (This may have been because Obama was in favour of the Egyptian revolution, so it must be bad.) But now it's Mad Dog Gadafi, I'd guess they don't know who to root for.

Less amusingly, there are nasty hints that a racist element has crept into the Libyan uprising. It looks as if Gadafi's use of African mercenaries has given some Libyan Arabs an excuse to turn on their black neighbours.

I don't think I was taking anything for granted. And I wasn't against the uprising, though I didn't come out and say that in so many words. My concern was, and is, for the post revolution government which will eventually take control. Let's face it, these are Muslim nations, and the establishment of an Islamic government is quite probable, though not necessarily a sure thing.

For my part, I feel that taking down Mubarak AND Gaddafi are both good things. But I'll still wait to see what replaces them.

I also find it interesting that both Egypt and Libya had primarily secular governments, with the Imams playing little or no role. Which other Muslim nations are similar in that respect, and can we expect rebellion in those countries, too? That would indicate a pattern of upheaval which is, in my opinion, sinister.

A constitutional reform panel on Saturday recommended opening Egypt's presidential elections to competition and imposing a two-term limit on future presidents — a dramatic shift from a system that allowed the ousted Hosni Mubarak to rule for three decades.

The changes are among 10 proposed constitutional amendments that are to be put to a popular referendum later this year. The proposals appeared to address many of the demands of the reform movement that help lead the 18-day popular uprising that forced Mubarak to step down on Feb. 11.

But some Egyptians worry that the proposed changes don't go far enough to ensure a transition to democratic rule, and could allow the entrenched old guard to maintain its grip on power.

The most important of the eight-member panel's proposals would greatly loosen restrictions on who could run for president, opening the field to independents and candidates from small opposition parties. That marks a drastic change from the previous system that gave Mubarak's ruling National Democratic Party a stranglehold on who could run.

"We were denied the right to have candidates before. Now they opened the door for whoever wants to run," said pro-reform Judge Ahmed Mekky. "This is a step forward."

A candidate would be allowed to run by doing one of three things: collecting 30,000 signatures from 15 of Egypt's 29 provinces; receiving the approval of at least 30 members of the elected parliament; or representing a party with at least one lawmaker in parliament.

The panel also recommended full judicial supervision of the electoral process, which would address regular criticism that the government routinely rigged past elections to ensure Mubarak's party retained its hold on power.

On Egypt's widely criticized emergency laws, which have been in place for 30 years and grant police sweeping powers of arrest, the panel proposed limiting their use to a six-month period with the approval of an elected parliament. Extending their use beyond that should be put to a public referendum, it said.

The recommendations did not directly address the law governing the formation of political parties — a process that previously was controlled by Mubarak's ruling party. Nor did they meet the demand of some protesters that the current constitution be simply scrapped and a new one created from scratch.

But the panel's chief, Tareq el-Bishri — considered one of Egypt's top legal minds — said the proposals "constitute a temporary constitution, after which a new constitution for the country can be drafted."

The suggestions were welcomed by some. Others dismissed them as patchwork changes to a faulty constitution that among other things gives unlimited powers to the president.

Islam Lotfi, a leading youth activist and a member of Egypt's most organized political movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, said the promise to rewrite the constitution responds to a major demand of the protesters.

But he called for the military to change the laws to scrap restrictions on forming political parties.

"Otherwise the military will fall prey one more time to the grip of the businessmen and the corrupt," he said.

Tahany el-Gibali, the deputy head of Egypt's Constitutional Court, said the amendments show a "serious shortcoming" in managing the transitional period by rushing toward elections without allowing new political players the time to form.

"This denies the new forces on the ground the right to organize and form new parties to run in those elections," el-Gibali said. "This will make the elections exclusive to the old powers," such as the Muslim Brotherhood and remnants of the old regime, particularly the businessmen.

The ruling military council, which took over from Mubarak, has said the military wants to hand power over to a new government and elected president within six months. It disbanded both houses of parliament and promised to repeal the emergency laws, though only when conditions permit.

Many Egyptians are growing impatient with the country's new military rulers to carry out promised reforms.

On Friday, tens of thousands rallied in Cairo's Tahrir Square to keep up the pressure on the military, pushing for the dismissal of the head of the caretaker government of Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq, who was appointed by Mubarak.

They are want a more active civilian role in the decisions made by the council. On Saturday, hundreds returned to the square. They were mainly protesting the beating of protesters the night before at the hands of the military police. The protesters were planning to camp outside the Cabinet to press for Shafiq's dismissal.

The overnight clash signaled a tougher line from Egypt's military rulers, who had avoided violently confronting anti-government protesters in the streets while promising to meet their demands for democratic reform and a return to civilian rule.

The military apologized Saturday and said the situation "wasn't intentional." In a statement, the ruling military council promised such confrontations would not happen again.

It's important to remember, amid all the Western paranoia, that a party with "Muslim" in its name isn't necessarily any kind of militant or fundamentalist, any more than the many European parties with names like "Christian Democrat" and "Christian Socialist." And in this particular case, the US has been quietly sponsoring the Muslim Brotherhood for a long time now, precisely so there would be a moderate alternative when and if Mubarak's regime fell. Obama knew what he was doing when he came out on their side.

It shouldnt matter all that much anyway if the United States has any claim to it's own principles any more:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill,
that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
support any friend, oppose any foe to assure
the survival and the success of liberty."

J.F. Kennedy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by denuseri

It shouldnt matter all that much anyway if the United States has any claim to it's own principles any more:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill,
that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
support any friend, oppose any foe to assure
the survival and the success of liberty."

J.F. Kennedy

---

Nice words, and words cost nothing. In europe the politicians have been quick to salute the rebellion for democracy and freedom, but when the talk is of taking in the fugitives from these countries, the admiration is stopped abruptly, because this costs money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by denuseri

It shouldnt matter all that much anyway if the United States has any claim to it's own principles any more:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill,
that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
support any friend, oppose any foe to assure
the survival and the success of liberty."

J.F. Kennedy

---

Words cost nothing. In Europe the politicians are quick to salute the rebellion for freedom and democracy. But they will not take in fugitives from said countries, because that costs money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by denuseri

It shouldnt matter all that much anyway if the United States has any claim to it's own principles any more:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill,
that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
support any friend, oppose any foe to assure
the survival and the success of liberty."

J.F. Kennedy

---

Words are so cheap!

In Europe the politicians are so busy getting their heads in the news to applaude the fight for democracy in the Middle east, but what they say behind their hands is 'we must make sure they select someone we like - who will sell us oil.'
They talk about the bravery of these people who fight, but what they covertly say is 'but we don't want all the fugitives, that could cost us money!