When Does A Dom Cross The Line To Abuse?

I hope I am not out of line by posting this because I really don’t have a lot of experience in this lifestyle. What I do have is a lot of personal experience in dealing with relationships, I was in an abusive marriage for many years which I left and I had a second marriage end in a way that caused me to do much personal growth and learning about myself.

I have read posts here by mostly women who for one reason or another have either been put in a position of physical danger by the demands of the Dom or great emotional distress. They all seem to be unsure if the abuse they have received is normal or not and if they are being a “good sub” by questioning the demands and or actions of the Dom.

In my opinion if it feels like abuse, IT IS abuse. It takes time to build trust in any relationship and only moments to shatter it forever and this kind of relationship, I believe, demands people to develop a deeper trust than most couples will ever have. A Dom should honor the gift of trust and respect that you are giving to him. You have a responsibility to yourself to ask “Is he/she worthy?’ of what I am offering. That is a question that can only be answered in time and one action at a time. There is nothing wrong with having the self esteem to ask that and believe that you are worthy of being cherished by the person you have chosen to know you in such an intimate way. You are offering insight into your thoughts, your soul, your needs and wants and things that you are afraid to express to anyone else. To be intimate with each other in a way that is not just sexual.

In the end if you have had to ask the question, in your heart you already know the answer and the Dom has failed to be worthy of you. I don’t believe that it is healthy not to have any limits and not to be able to say no. Not at first and not until you know you are safe no matter what. I have read over and over people in here stressing communication, both before and after any scene, is critical to building a sub/Dom relationship. If someone you had just met demanded you to do something you were not comfortable with and refused to discuss why saying you were a bad person for asking in any other scenario, would you still say yes and comply? I bet you would have alarm bells going off and your instinct would tell you to leave. Follow your intuitions. They are never wrong.

Any way just my two cents for what it is worth.

It amazes me the number of people who confuse BDSM with abuse...

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Originally Posted by chattel69

It amazes me the number of people who confuse BDSM with abuse...

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I am not surprised, because frequently the actions are the same. The difference is the motivation behind the actions.

cariad

sometimes even the motivation can be the same, I think it tends to lay in how the submissive is viewed by the Dom. There are several kinds of Doms, and countless ways of being Dominant, but only one way really speaks the loudest. When what you do with the submissive brings them to view the Dom as Dom, rather than the Dom declare it.

There is a thread on here BDSM vs Abuse, and RACK vs SSC. these two threads coupled with this one I think really tell the entire view of when BDSM becomes abuse.

It becomes abuse, when the intent of the Dominant is to satisfy his desires, regardless of the submissives feelings. Even if its simply a spanking, if the submissive doesnt want it, and the 'Dom' does it (outside of a punishment scene which is an agreed upon situation). It becomes abuse, as well as assault.

There is pushing limits in a scene, and there is forcing. Being able to decipher what is what, and when its too far for the submissive really is something that must be 'Mastered'.

Above it all, if it isn't fun. Why the hell are you doing it?

V/R
ID

Beautifully put Widget- thanks for putting it so well, no one can tell it like it is until they've been there.

Too many people IMO are afraid to leave a relationship or any sort. They think they'll fall apart on their own or whatever.

My theory is that if you can't live with yourself any relationship is doomed to failure eventually.

An excellent post. :wave:

Tojo

I agree with Tojo, Widget. Your post was beautifully worded. I am sure that it will help many who are just learning.:)

Widget, thank you! :rose:

That's print, keep and read often "words of wisdom".

Ruby

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...s/cayvvotg.jpg

Thanks for starting it. :)

Kaza

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Originally Posted by cariad(CC)

I am not surprised, because frequently the actions are the same. The difference is the motivation behind the actions.

cariad

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Not necessarily cariad... I might have the very best of motives, trying to create an excellent, edgy scene, and have it well received by some subs and not appreciated by others.

But it is definitely in the eye of the beholder... It's abuse if the sub takes no enjoyment from it... even if that enjoyment is no more than being pushed to your boundaries... the act itself may not please but being pushed and pleasing your master may be pleasing to you.

Remember the things you wouldn't have believed you were capable of, early on, that you do routinely today? Were they abusive then but not now?

Have to go with Oz, the abuse is defined from the receiving end just as much as the giving.

Our lifestyle would seem like abuse at its softest actions to most of the vanilla world. Just reading about this in "The Loving Dominant" and agree with the author that a true Dominant as apposed to an abuser is the way he deals with the sub. Does he want the best for her, to help her grow in the directions she wants or is he just there for his pleasure. Bet you can guess which is the abuser.

Her pleasure and enjoyment are the most important to me and her well being is duty

If someones brakes the few written-in-stone laws that I have I will hit him then leave him. That is as simple as I was able to put it. :)

Well said, especially you, Widget. :)

Digressing slightly here, I think maybe there’s also often confusion between sexual submissiveness and sexual martyrdom. I knew this woman once, and I swear she actually seemed to crave to be abused by men. I’m not talking about the every so sweet power exchange of bdsm play either, well, not as I understand it to be anyway, but extreme and unchecked physical and mental abuse that she seemed to need to validate her own lack of self worth—very sad really that there were men willing to accommodate her.

I agree, a healthy sexual relationship should always be based on trust and respect.

This is a tricky thing. I agree that the intention of the Dom is key, and that the way the sub feels on the receiving end is important too ~ but there are times when something feels almost like abuse, but you go through it and realize it was punishment. Sometimes as a newbie you almost think it's all borderline abuse, except that for some reason you enjoy it...as long as it's on your terms, but the problem lies that - it's not on the subs terms all the time is it? It's on the Dom's terms too. So the line becomes blurred, which is why I think people here keep stressing communication.

If you get your ass spanked more than you thought, or liked, sometimes you have to accept that maybe on some level, you deserved it for being a bit extreme in your own behaviour. (from a sub's point of view here) You get up, with some tears and are held by your Dom, but your defiant streak/ ego is learning where to/not to go. That's teaching, but to outsiders, it could be termed abuse right?

love the topic widget....

Thankyou Krynn for stranding up for the right way,,,I appreciate it mate...

Benz{ceegee}

Any Dom can make requests of any sub provided it is done respectfully. The problem here is it was an order that violated yours and hers relationship. A sub has no need to ever follow any order till she has accepted a relationship with the Dom.

Some of the online Doms can't get that worked out, they step across this line often and show that they have little knowledge about our protocalls.

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Originally Posted by sub17

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If you get your ass spanked more than you thought, or liked, sometimes you have to accept that maybe on some level, you deserved it for being a bit extreme in your own behaviour. (from a sub's point of view here) You get up, with some tears and are held by your Dom, but your defiant streak/ ego is learning where to/not to go. That's teaching, but to outsiders, it could be termed abuse right?

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I think, perhaps, you've unintentionally described exactly when a spanking, or any other kind of bdsm play, does becomes abusive (or an abuse of power). Of course, it's just my opinion, but does anyone, male or female, really 'deserve' to be pushed beyond what they're prepared to give freely? When the scales of play are tipped too far, isn't the balance of power exchange lost?

Good pointAlex, it is why I don't use physical punishment very often. First why take something we both love and make that a punishment. Second I know where she lives mentally and can do more with that then just pain will ever do.

Yes I am aware of mental abuse but that isn't what I do either, an example is that when she brings out the brat I may give her a spanking because it is what she wants, or if it is more then just being morgan I can have her put a cloths pin on her tongue, she hates that. I can stop being her Master till she can't stand that. All of these punishments effect a change but not from pain.

Its a tricky line for sure. I think that punishment in a BDSM relationship has a place. When you consider that the roles take on at times a parental manner, and after all if a parent punishes its not abuse, then its a different ball game. Intent, consideration of boundaries however extreme is what makes it either abuse or not. If I punish a sub and its all part of the roles we have, if somehow they need or accept it as due and I take care to ensure that no harm is done I would not call it abuse.

If someone "punishes" under the guise of control, put downs and does not ensure to take good care of my mental health or physical health I call that abuse no matter why the punishment occurs.

I feel that a true punishment, not a play one where there is no real offence and the punishment it part of the game, but a true you did wrong and here is your atonement and penance can be a very interesting thing for both parties. I think it can even be healthy, guilt freeing and allow for acknowledgement of feelings or new direction in a relationship. To be penitent and then free from having to worry about it any more because the price was paid can be healthy. Look at religion and confession ... after all its punishment for deeds and sins as approved by the church.. law and order...where its court ordained and I am sure the punished do not want it and may call it abuse too. Justice and rules are in BDSM just as anywhere else, they are just negotiated on a personal level.

With the complexity that a BDSM life adds to any interactions I still believe the acid test lies in the feelings that the sub or Dom has with the interaction. If they feel abused and worthless its abuse. If they have to ask if it was, it was. If the Dom knows lines were crossed and does not care, he or she is an abuser.

well said widget

Very good topic. In my limited experience of BDSM, I have come to learn rather quickly that for me, a Dom has to respect me as a person, care about me as an individual and make my safety as important to him as it is to me.

If My Sir had had no regard for those things, it would feel demeaning and the results would make me feel a whole bunch of ugly things. He knows what I have to offer Him, and what I am offering to Him. He accepts my submission to him as a gift, and within the scene..he expects my submission, but that is what I give to him and he recieves it and respects it as His.

His pleasure

For whatever reason I found this topic today and decided to give it a bump. I find this to be a discussion that we should always take another look at from time to time because it is really that important. With the growing numbers of people who are getting involved in the lifestyle, many of them for the first time, I feel a real potential exists for confusion about the difference between consensual BDSM and abuse. Those in the vanilla world pretty much condemn BDSM on the whole as abusive, which we who embrace the lifestyle know is absolutely false. Ours is a world where it is acceptable to seemingly do horrible things to a person, yet we know when the lifestyle is practiced correctly, these things are not horrible at all, but only a means of providing the necessary outlets we value and find meaningful, be we Dominants or submissives.

Abuse is not the same as consensual BDSM, yet abusive relationships do exist within the lifestyle community just as with other segments of our society. While I personally believe abusers in our community are the definite minority, no group unfortunately is completely free of relational abuse. All of us who adhere to the lifestyle but especially the Dominants in our culture, I think are responsible to do all in their power to eradicate it. Given their nature, submissives of course are the ones who are usually the victims of abuse and may suffer the further indignity of feeling isolated and may hesitate to turn to someone for help out of fear of rejection or of giving credence to stereotypes. As with society in general fear, denial, and the lack of knowledge all conspire to slow community response to the serious social problem of abuse. For that reason, I believe it always useful to ask questions such as the one posed here and allow it to be freely discussed.

To me abuse is a defined pattern of intentional intimidation for the purpose of dominating, coercing, or isolating another without her or his consent. Because of the presence of the intimidation factor, where there is abuse in any part of a relationship, there can be no consent. It has been said that familiarity breeds contempt. This in a way I think weakens one of the most fundamental tenants of a lifestyle relationship; safe, sane, and consensual. For some these words have become so familiar that perhaps they are not always taken seriously enough in all lifestyle relationships. Safe play comes first, period. This includes the concept of open honest communications from both parties in the relationship and also includes another basic requirement for rational play, the existence and use of safe words and safe signals. Sane can be a bit tougher to understand, because of the difficulty of one person defining what is sane and what is not. Clearly though, sane certainly means staying within reasonable limits. Finally, consensual means agreed upon. BDSM activities should be pleasurable to both parties and no one should be forced to do something. Dominants have the right and I think the responsibility to “push” limits because that is the most easily accessible pathway to growth yet we are also responsible to stop short or coercion or force when it comes to a submissive’s limits. Limits must and should be respected and never unilaterally trampled because a so-called Dominant thinks their opinion is the only one that matters. Physical abuse is quite easily recognized and differentiated from acceptable play. Abuse is non-consensual assaultive conduct or play that is so out of control that a person suffers real injury even to the point of needing medical attention. It is not possible to consent to being battered and anyone who consented to it, I think would surely have significant emotional issues which certainly violate the sane standard.

A few simple questions can help someone understand whether they are involved in acceptable BDSM play or becoming a target of abuse. Does their partner ever hit, choke, or otherwise physically hurt them to the degree that they suffer real injury or are pushed further than where they intended to go? Have they ever been restrained, locked in a room, or had a weapon used against them against their will? Are they at times afraid of their partner? Actual rape and forced sexual acts which are not consensual are most likely abuse. Certainly these activities are role-played but we must never mistake something real for something that is just an enjoyable fantasy. Have your limits been violated? Have you ever heard the words “If you were a true submissive you wouldn’t object, or you wouldn’t feel that way, etc.” when your partner is responding to your expression of anxieties or frustrations with what is going on n the relationship.

It isn’t just in the physical realm where we find abuse. Whenever someone constantly criticizes performance, withholds sex as a means of control when their partner refuses to consent to some activity, ridicules their partner’s limits, or does anything that actually degrades the other person’s self-esteem or feelings of self worth, that is also abuse, verbal abuse and also unacceptable. The lifestyle is no excuse for perpetrating mental cruelty.

I think sometimes we as members of the lifestyle want to think our relationships are completely different from those of the vanilla society. But there is one thing that all relationships have in common. A functional relationship, whether vanilla or BDSM, should be a partnership between persons where both find the interaction experienced to be as mutually rewarding and joy filled as possible.

P

During a conversation with a friend today - we were talking about this very thing - I realized something. I could never imagine Him hitting me in anger or treating me badly, mentally or emotionally. And I realized, no matter what we do, that I trust Him. And when we dance on that edge, whatever it is for us in the moment, I know He will take care of me. That is an incredibly freeing feeling. For both of us, I think. :)

What I'm trying to say is that if you, the submissive, don't feel that - then perhaps it is abuse.

A perhaps cliche oversimplification would be to say, "when it is no longer safe, sane or consensual."

Consent is funny thing, and can be given or withdrawn very subtly..and sometimes, as above, should be withdrawn and isn't...two way street there..

BDSM is often, (in my humbly limited experience) a very fine line to walk, right out on the edge of the cliff...I can see that it takes very strong people
walk out there without going over the edge, at least not without a rope <WEG>. We often do not credit our pioneers enough..

maybe I didn't say that too well...