Is it right to dominate a low self-esteem sub?

A few of the threads in this forum in the last few days have made me think about how I got into bdsm and about how lucky I was to find a dom that would not dominate me just because I felt inferior to him.

In the mental state I was then, if I had fallen in the hands of an abuser my life would have been in serious danger. I was fortunate to find a lover who taught me first how to appreciate myself before submiting.

My question to all doms out there is: how do you know if your new sub is mentally ready to submit in a healty manner and if she/he is not, would you go ahead anyways and dominate her/him anyway hoping her self esteem improves somewhere along the way?

Short version... NO


TO receive the gift of submission from one it must be just that; a gift. Given freely, with total commitment on both ends. A submissive with low self esteem may not be capable of granting submission as a gift. It may be seen as something that ~must~ be paid. Not a gift but a price to be paid for whatever mental baggage the submissive is carrying around.

A submissive who is not in touch with him/herself can not grant you a gift. They can only shell out a facimily of a gift. Submission becomes more of a penance for imagined crimes or sins and is not worthy of acceptance.

Furthermore, and more importantly; a low self-esteemed sub is more likely to place themselves in a bad situation. A situation that hurts thier mental state rather than enhances it. Submissives like this are likely to find abusers as opposed to real Dominats. They do not want someone to care for and aid them as much as they want someone to take away thier choices and cause them further mental and physical harm.

If a low esteemed submissive is taken on by a Dominant they will not be happy simply becasue they are dominated. In fact they will probably become frustrated and try to provoke punishments they feel they deserve.

As thier submission is realy to thier own self serving self punishing feelings they are a danger to themselves. Also, to their Dominant. No dominant can compete with self loathing or self pity as a primary dominant in the submissive's life. Unless you like simply hurting and manipulating peoples emotions to negative ends. If so, you are not a Dominat, you are a dumb and an abuser and that is irresponsible and criminal.

On a more basic level, how can lack of slef esteem be a part of safe, sane, and conscensual? It is impossible. If a submissive aproaches you in a less than stable mental state, you can not Dominate them. IT is dangerous and irresponisble to try. You can and should get them to try and lift themselves back to a state of mental well being that everyoen should enjoy. For soem people this is impossible without professional assistance. SO don't try to force it.

The sub must be of sound mental state to submit, just as a Dominant must be so to dominate. The potential for damage outside of good mental states is staggering.

~LT~

To think of it as such would be to allow, in this case, a low self-esteemed person to continue to believe that they are giving the gift of themselves to the "one and only" person worthy of it. (Sorry LT. I don't believe relationships are gifts.)

However, I agree with the rest of what LT has said. I will elaborate a bit from my perspective, though.

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how do you know if your new sub is mentally ready to submit in a healty manner and if she/he is not, would you go ahead anyways and dominate her/him anyway hoping her self esteem improves somewhere along the way?

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You don't know. There's no way to tell. You don't know what experiences have made the person with which you are about to form a relationship. You can get to know them and you can ask them all kinds of questions, but until the collar is on and the contract is signed, you really don't know what the total package of one person is.

Yes, you can dominate someone with low self-esteem. However, when it comes to her self-image and her mental health, the dominant should be very aware of what he is doing.

For instance, many dominants use techniques which would harm an insecure person's image of themselves. Humiliation play, rape play, watersports and scat, depersonalization and many more types of play could severely tear down an insecure person's already tenuous self-image. I have always maintained that it takes a strong, well-adjusted person to submit and I still stick by that assesment.

If a dominant was to enter into a relationship with someone with obvious self-esteem issues, I think it would be in that dominant's best interest to encourage (not order, not commmand and not insist) that the person get some therapy. You don't want to play with a broken toy, so why would you want to dominate a person that might snap at any moment? I'm not talking about violence or anything, but who's to say what triggers episodes with people that are suffering in the self-image department? You don't want to tie up your submissive and be right in the middle of a very powerful rape play scenario and have her break into tears in earnest because she suddenly remembers that the reason for her low self-esteem is because her daddy raped her when she was a child. That sort of thing is permanently damaging to a relationship.

You also cannot tell someone that they need help. You can pass on to them what you observe in their behavior and opine that you might think therapy would be good for them, but you cannot insist that they get the help they probably need. Only the person can decide for themselves that they need help. And the help they need should come from a professional, not a dominant, not a lover, not a partner, not a relative and not a loved one.

The sad thing is that sometimes your partner, after entering into therapy, might realize that this type of relationship is not good for them right now or that a relationship with you specifically might not be good. In that case, the only thing a dominant can do is to let the person go. Selfishness cannot enter into the equation. Yes, it hurts. Yes, it sucks, but sometimes the most important step for someone's well-being is to be on their own for awhile.

An important thing to remember is to try to find a BDSM-friendly couselor. They usually don't advertise that they are fetish friendly in the yellow pages, so you will have to ask.

;) Tourguide, I beleive We are both on the same page. THough Our perspectives may be differnt, I think we actualy agree.

THis was a two part question. I focused on one point you took the other. Thank you, I was a bit too tired last night. My appologies to Jones, Nikka.

Now I am not so vain as to think that there is only one person that any one given submissive can submit to. I do see it as a gift, you do not; but that is only Our difference of interpretation. Sorry, the heart of a poet sees it as a gift. *grin* But that discussion is not for this thread.

Thanks, Tourguide for your input and thanks to Jones for startign this discussion.

LT

Thank you Lord Thomas and BDSM_Tourguide for your input. You have just confirmed what I always suspected: you are true gentlemen. What scares me is that no other doms, male or female, answered the thread.
Would they, or would they not do it?
How many of them have given serious thought to this question?
How many subs are now in unhealthy relationships?
Does this kind of situation constitutes abuse?

As Gandalf the gray said in LOTR: "Questions, questions that need answers"

of a sub with low selfesteam, But that should also be exstended to other things as well the sub could be bipolor or other forms of mental illlness.

But on the other hand I wonder just how many subs are realy well in all terms. I think if the cold light of truth betold that most subs are not well in one way or another. wether they are into bdsm becouse they were abused when they were a child or other forms of trama.

Am I saying that a sub has to be sick to be a sub. Not totaly but but there are a few that the gates are down lights are flashing but there no train in sight.

What a top question. The only reason (I hope) that more haven't replied is because the thread is young! give it time..

Well, in response, I would never dominate someone who had no self esteem. low self esteem may be different, if they wanted to be dominated you could do it, but only in such a mannner as to make sure that the sub realises how much you love them. I don't think it would be right to dominate someone with low self esteem if you were going for the BDSM equivalent of a one night stand, thats pretty wrong.

hooroo

Clearly i am not a Dom......but in my view 'low self esteem' is a bit of a blanket term and any decisions regarding a submissive's suitability to be subbed or the ethics of subbing them should be based entirely on the individual. i wonder in fact if that is why so few Doms have replied, because to say they would/have Dominated someone with low self esteem would make them sound callous, but i really think it depends on the person and whether to Dominate and form a relationship with them would be abuse or not.

i think the key is probably to be found in something Nikka Jones said, in my experience any decent Dom (especially one with a sub who has self esteem issues) makes a point of encouraging the sub and getting them to appreciate who they are and their very important role in the relationship as opposed to in anyway encouraging notions that they are a sub because they are inferior to the Dom.

This is an interesting topic tho, lots of people suffer with low self-esteem and it is undoubtedly an important issue is D/s relationships.....i do however think that there is perhaps a happy medium to be sought somewhere, between not getting involved with a sub with low-self esteem and "going ahead hoping her self esteem improves somewhere along the way".

i am probably rambling now!

sl

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Originally posted by Jones, Nikka
What scares me is that no other doms, male or female, answered the thread.
Would they, or would they not do it?
How many of them have given serious thought to this question?
How many subs are now in unhealthy relationships?
Does this kind of situation constitutes abuse?

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My wife suffers from low self-esteem at times, stemming from her mentally-abusive mother. Her first experience with sex was a violent gang rape (several years before I met her).

And I am willing to dominate her, including rape-fantasy, when she is in the mood.

The key here is "when she is in the mood". It's a very delicate situation; in a way, while I dominate during sex, I suppose you could say that she also "dominates" when it comes to when we get kinky and when we enjoy "normal" sex.

My wife has a "barrier" that must be pushed through in order for her to fully enjoy sex; pushing her over that hump requires clamps, ropes, and domination. The key is to know when to push, and when not to.

I do know this: Her self-esteem has improved over the last twenty years. She is a brilliant, beautiful, talented, and caring woman -- and I make sure to let her know that.

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Originally posted by Jones, Nikka
Thank you Lord Thomas and BDSM_Tourguide for your input. You have just confirmed what I always suspected: you are true gentlemen. What scares me is that no other doms, male or female, answered the thread.
Would they, or would they not do it?
How many of them have given serious thought to this question?
How many subs are now in unhealthy relationships?
Does this kind of situation constitutes abuse?

As Gandalf the gray said in LOTR: "Questions, questions that need answers"

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Hmm... Me wondereth if Nikka has been lurking in one of my Yahoo groups.

Dominating a person with low self-esteem CAN be abusive, but it can also be very normal. It all depends on how the relationship and the actions within it are handled.

As I said in previous posts to this thread, actions should be to build up the submissive's self-image, not tear it down. Unfortunately, much that we do in our BDSM relationships can be destructive, even if in small ways.

I mean, think about what kneeling naked at your dominant's side means to you, but also try to imagine how it can feel to someone whose self-image isn't all that great. I know from personal experience that sometimes just the act of being naked can inspire feelings of discomfort and nervousness. For a very insecure person, that mere act of supplication could very well lead to a panic attack, depending on the severity of her image issues.

No one is perfect, however it is a bit unfair to characterize all other doms and dommes, just because they did not reply to Jones, Nikka's earlier post, as "scary" or too insensitive to the needs of their partners:

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What scares me is that no other doms, male or female, answered the thread.

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Certainly, it is nice to assume that the two respondees are, in fact, "gentlemen", though the context in which they are so portrayed assumes that all that did not respond to the thread are the opposite.
In terms of the fear factor that's why trust must first be developed. This trusting between partners frequently leads to an intimate endearment, or bond. When all of this happens to the better, it does tend to reduce the fear of whatever comes next.
And, replying to some cyber thread should not be a guide toward gentleness for any sub or slave as something more should be required.

I just stumbled across this thread and I must say that it is one of the more interesting and thought provoking ones I have seen.

Each of us has only his own experience to draw conclusions from...some more than others. I'll add my 2 cents.

I've been in my first true BDSM relationship for about 9 months now. In thinking back over the years, this is probably the first woman I've ever been involved with that DOESN'T have low self esteem. She's probably the most self-confident and together woman I've ever known. She's not only open to all forms of BDSM (except scat...we both find that disgusting) but she is enthusiastic about it. It's been the most fulfilling experience I've had, and a lot of that has to do with her mental stability.

I can see now where the same type of relationship with one of my ex's would have been a very fragile thing.

I hope more people contribute here...

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Originally posted by Faibhar
No one is perfect, however it is a bit unfair to characterize all other doms and dommes, just because they did not reply to Jones, Nikka's earlier post, as "scary" or too insensitive to the needs of their partners

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Sorry Faibhar, if I offended you or anyone else but I never characterized anyone as anything. It just seemed to me -from personal experience- that this would be an important question that everyone would be interested in answering. And I never used the word insensitive.
Thank you, by the way, to all others -subs and dom/mes- that have given their views.

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You have just confirmed what I always suspected: you are true gentlemen. What scares me is that no other doms, male or female, answered the thread.

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Sorry, Jones, Nikka but the above from your earlier post does seem to be something of a characterization.
That much said, no need for your later apology as the world most certainly does not turn around the axis of one cyber note. Still, I hope that you now have a larger view of those that did and did not respond to your thread and will in a general way apply this new found knowledge to other areas.

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Originally posted by Faibhar
In terms of the fear factor that's why trust must first be developed. This trusting between partners frequently leads to an intimate endearment, or bond. When all of this happens to the better, it does tend to reduce the fear of whatever comes next.

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The above is such a standout statement to me, in that it can be applied to all relationships. That being said, I don't think that BDSM relationships essentially differ from the everyday 'conventional' or 'vanilla' relationships, because at the end of the day it's a relationship. The only nuances between the conventional relationship and BDSM relationship perhaps relates to the differing activity or intensity of the activity within the relationship. Although many relationships that are seen in everyday life might not reflect the 'BDSM' flavour, there is an element of it no matter how small, however there is a difference when the relationship is one between people that don't have low self esteem.
Even in conventional non 'bdsm 'relationships, low self esteem can be dysfunctional. These relationship might not essentially involve power exhanges of a more intense level, but they still involve some form of power exchange in a subtle form, and those with low self esteem somehow have difficulty making sense of the relationship.
It might be 'why does he/she do this and that and doesn't tell me?'.. 'why didn't they call'.. etc etc. A small example, but overall when people dwell on such things and take them personally, it can reflect low self esteem. On reading this thread I thought about the low self esteem factor and how fragile this can be for a person, because at some point in our lives we can experience a phase where we have low self esteem, be it after a relationship breakup, being overlooked for a work promotion or a comment made to us etc etc. If we are within relationships that are healthy during these times, then all the above becomes workable or resolvable, however being in this state and then pursuing or allowing a person into one's life 'might' pose problems at a later stage.

Although it is 'ideal' to work through personal issues prior to entering relationships, the reality is that we don't know when that person might cross our path, and as per usual that's how it happens, we enter 'a' relationship that might progress even though there are some issues on the backburner.

So going back to the above quote, trust is essential, the formation of trust within the relationship is important.

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I was fortunate to find a lover who taught me first how to appreciate myself before submiting.

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But the question that still remains for me is whether or not those that have suffered traumatic experiences in the past (at the hands of people they've 'trusted' or loved etc) can not only trust, but be fully comfortable with their personal choices knowing they have made a choice based on knowing themselves as people and not making choices out of 'need' of some kind, which might implode at a later date, for not many are fortunate to meet people that can take personal trauma's etc in their stride.

I do not think that it is "wrong" to dominate a submissive with low self esteem. There is a difference between that and exploiting the condition.

I have heard comments by some people that say they would rather dominate a woman (or man what have you) if they have low self esteem. Why this is I can only guess. Maybe it is because they are insecure themselves and wants someone who will not question anything they say or do, accept everything they are told as truth, or have little power to control a person that has a strong sense of self.

Now, I do have a low self esteem, especially when it comes to the way I look and sometimes in my dreams of becoming a published author. Does this mean that I should not be dominated? No. Because TG is very supportive in all my endevours, praises me when he thinks I have done something well, tells me if he has enjoyed the most recent chapter of my novel, and says he likes the way I look.

So to me, it all deopends on the method of domination. If you are going to feed the low self esteem then, in my opinion, you deserve to be shot. But if you are willing to help them see that they are a wonderful and beautiful person in their own right then I see no problems with it.

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Originally posted by Cleo671
The question that still remains for me is whether or not those that have suffered traumatic experiences in the past... can not only trust, but be fully comfortable with their personal choices knowing they have made a choice based on knowing themselves as people and not making choices out of 'need' of some kind...

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In other words -and I fully agree with Cleo671- it is still up to each sub to know themselves well enough to make safe choices. Submission is not en excuse for low self esteem and low self esteem is not an excuse for submission or abuse. A hard choice for all concerned
I wonder how other subs see this dilemma.

I'll just talk from my own experience, although that's rather based on general relationships than d/s ones, but I think that there's more in common than most strictly vanilla people think.

first off, it really depends on each person and how their self-esteem got so low. my lows are mostly based on my outside appearence and the incoherent way I sometimes talk - I just feel inferior when I have a bda day and can't get one sentence fully out without skidding over the words. if then someone looks at me a bit queer I'm ready to crawl into hiding and not get out for some time. I don't have any thraumatic bachground or something, so I consider myself a psychotic but rather normal weirdo ;)
as I just stated in another thread there's one thing to crack me, that's ignoring me. that's the one effective way to blow down all my defences and make me cringe in hours, because I begin to imagine a multitude of stupid reasons for being ignored, and I'm really good at pushing myself down very fast. so that's something a dominant would have to take into consideration when dealing with me - a simple explanation of possible time problems is all there is to be needed to not trigger that accidently.
so if I ever happen to find myself at the "mercy" of someone who doesn't mind myself going inside because of feeling ignored, who doesn't even try to assure me that I don't look like a monster and who doesn't care to reassure me on my other qualities there's only one thing left to do - quit. but someone who does something like that on perpose is a jerk and has no rigt to consider him/herself a dominant in my eyes.

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Submission is not en excuse for low self esteem and low self esteem is not an excuse for submission or abuse. A hard choice for all concerned

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I can only agree with that. these two tings might show up together, but they are neither based on the same thing nor have to go hand in hand. I know some people who have equally low self-esteem as me and whom I wouldn't consider submissive (although they might now consider me so, either), and I know from myself that I still feel more comfortable with the role of a sub when I'm in a psychical high with everything around me going well and without issues.

but I discovered that being dominated might even have a positive effect on my self-esteem as it's a sign of being acknowledged, of being cared about, so it really just depends on the people, not on the value of their respective self-esteems how or if something might work out.

As someone who does not engage in the 'lifestyle', someone who keeps his D/s in the bedroom, I have avoided this topic until now... But I read two things that got me thinking.

(Try not to get me thinking about the big D/s picture folks-- it makes me run off and sacrifice porn to Christ. :D )

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Originally posted by Cleo671
But the question that still remains for me is whether or not those that have suffered traumatic experiences in the past (at the hands of people they've 'trusted' or loved etc) can not only trust, but be fully comfortable with their personal choices...

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Somethign else to consider... when you talk about someone who has been through a serious trauma, you also have to ask yourself, 'Can their choices for themselves be trusted?'

I'm no college professor and my understanding of psychology is college sophmore at best. The only answer I can find as a semi-Dom is, "try not to be an insensitive ass"... and be ready to find a limit somewhere.

That's part of the reason I doubt I could ever be the 24/7 Dom. No blood oath, no contract, no handshake will ever give me proper consent to 'do as I will' to a sub. Her showing me a trigger-- something she wears, a looks she has, something that implies her consent-- gives me license, but being a human being requires me to take care not to put a fragile mind in harm's way.

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Originally posted by Dari
so if I ever happen to find myself at the "mercy" of someone who doesn't mind myself going inside because of feeling ignored, who doesn't even try to assure me that I don't look like a monster and who doesn't care to reassure me on my other qualities there's only one thing left to do - quit. but someone who does something like that on perpose is a jerk and has no rigt to consider him/herself a dominant in my eyes.

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This nails it perfectly, right here. A dominant isn't measured by how mean he/she is, or how much mercy he/she has, but by the quality of his/her mercy, and the respect that he/she commands of a sub. At the root of respect is trust; at the root of trust is understanding.

Don't sub to Homer Simpson.

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Originally posted by GaryWilcox
...'Can their choices for themselves be trusted?'...
That's part of the reason I doubt I could ever be the 24/7 Dom. No blood oath, no contract, no handshake will ever give me proper consent to 'do as I will' to a sub. Her showing me a trigger-- something she wears, a looks she has, something that implies her consent-- gives me license, but being a human being requires me to take care not to put a fragile mind in harm's way.

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Just when I thought this thread could not get any more interesting GaryWilcox writes in to equally remind doms and subs that regardless of our level of self esteem we must strive to know ourselves (and our choices) better and that bdsm may be the greatest learning ground about our own humanity.

*Gets on her feet to give the newly-minted moderator a standing ovation*

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Originally posted by GaryWilcox
it makes me run off and sacrifice porn to Christ

Don't sub to Homer Simpson.

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wise words, indeed :D

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Don't sub to Homer Simpson.

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GW gives sound advice with the above , and obviously sees application to the bdsm lifestyle. The advice reminds of someone quoting Homer saying in that plaintive voice, "Donuts: Is there anything that they can't do?"

Thanks Niika, Dari, and Faibhar, for your praise. <g> My head is swelling, ever-big.

Careful of that swelling head. Not only will the dimensions of your tam o' shanter change, but then there's ultimately the inability to safely enter and egress elevators.

It is my belief that one person must be as mentally and emotionally strong as the other person. One cannot Dominate without the other's submission and one cannot submit without the other's domination. You cannot have one without the other. Both roles are just as important and i believe it takes a strong mental being to truly be able to let go and allow the other person to completely dominate them.

But that's just me, what do i know?

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Originally posted by red~vixen
But that's just me, what do i know?

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Apparently, how to be happy. :)

Indeed Mr. Wilcox....i am inclined to agree with you on that one...nobody can kill my joy. :D Thanks for the observation, that just brightened my day, even more so.

Hi Everyone,

This IS a fascinating topic, and one that I have thought about a great deal in the last six or so years since I recognised my own masochism and subbie nature.

Before I start ranting on, I ought to say that I come from a very dysfunctional family and that I was physically abused (but not sexually assaulted) almost from the age of 11 or so. It was one of those magazine-article middle class families that looked so wonderful from the outside but stank inside. So, by the time I was in my mid teens I had a very low self esteem. I was far from being diagnosably psychotic or mentally ill, but I am sure that analysts would have been queuing up to get me on their couches.

In fact it was my first owner who showed me that I should be proud of myself, even if it was in ways that hadn't seemed important to me up to then - things like my academic standards, my (hopefully) basic intelligence, my feelings for other people less fortunate than myself. I will say now that he was a great deal older than I was, and obviously far far wiser. But as well as 'training' me he also cared for me and built me up psychologically. He was just a wonderful guy to whom I feel nothing but gratitude.

He used his dominant position to put me back together again and, by the time we parted, I had come to see that maybe there was a lot of me that WAS worthwhile. I now happily (and immodestly! LOL) admit to being bright and smart and good looking, and to knowing my own mind. But I also knew by the time he left, that I was deeply masochistic, and very much a submissive. AND I loved that; it didn't worry me, and I almost flouted my subbie nature.

My present (and only second ) owner saw what I was almost as soon as we met, and I was aware enough by then to recognise his dominant nature. From almost the first moment we were alone together we naturally fell into what seemed like our preordained roles. I won't say that everything has been rosey all the way; I did my usual 'testing the dom' business and paid for it in no uncertain manner, and I can be headstrong and demanding myself. Thankfully he is a strong guy and he is strict with me which I both like and admire.

So I am/was a subbie with a low self esteem who, through being in two D/s relationships. has found herself and has recovered much of her self esteem. This is no fairy tale but MY LIFE, and I can safely say now that I am relaxed in my relationship with my owner and I am happy with what I do and, most importantly, with what I am.

Perhaps, on the basis of 'the proof of the pudding is in the eationg', it's probably proof positive that things have dramatically imroved for me by the fact that I am writing this to be read by strangers. Six and a half years ago I NEVER freely talked to strangers, and I was the one at parties who cowered in the corner and looked sulky and miserable, and was rude to anyone who talked to her. I used the porcupine defense and never opened up to anyone until I started to recognise what I was and after I had met my first owner.

Dominants can be abusive, of that I am sure, human nature being what it is. But there are good guys out there and I am extremely fortunate to have been owned by two of them. And I like to think that I am daily meeting open and honest doms here as well. For me, being a sub is wonderful and I wouldn't have it any other way. I may have been incredibly lucky but I think my experiences show that a low self esteem can be RADICALLY improved through a good D/s relationship.

Sorry to have chuntered on for so long, but this is something that I think needed to be said, for my own sake, if for no-one else's.

Love, Jane.

Ya know, I have a problem with this. I have thought about this, and I have thought about this. I dislike psychology. Its faddish and often arbitrary. I think that so little is actually known about how the brain functions, chemicals etc. that it is no wonder the mind is a terrible thing to taste. Psychology says,” why that person isn’t crazy.” Sociology says,” pbbt……oh……he’s off the beam.” Its 2003, I’d be hard pressed to find a large portion of people who aren’t from dysfunctional families. People either are strong enough to deal with it or they are not. it’s the same line of reasoning for why people from some back grounds commit crimes or do hard core drugs or any other thing and why some do not.
Happiness is a chocolate chip cookie, and anger and unhappiness mean that change needs to occur. They are motivators. Personal motivators. Intrinsic motivation is a beautiful thang. And advertising doesn’t work unless it is creating a little self esteem problem.
Any person who says, “Here have my life, manage my life because its out of control and I can’t deal with it.” is just as equally guilty as the person who says,” Ok. And in return you can be responsible for my happiness---equally arbitrary.” That’s not an exchange of power, that’s shifting responsibility. The person who is not balanced going in is the one that is ready to scream victim at any given point. And has been screaming it for years and will do so again. Not because its sexual but because its manipulating someone else into being responsible and then soaking up the sympathy. The person who is doing the abusing is so out of control that he has to control someone else in order to feel like he has some control over his life. That’s not a man, that’s a child. And they are usually intellectually challenged. That type of relationship exists everywhere.
And that’s not d/s or bdsm, unless I am way off base. I could be. Its happened before.
That’s your run of the mill clown act that is every where.
And this wasn’t meant to attack anyone who has had or is having problems with self esteem, because obviously the actual work had to be done by the individual and is operating from a place of strength not a place of manipulation or shifting responsibility.

i cannot agree with pandemonium more. i get so tired of hearing people blame their current state on the way they were raised or what they have experienced throughout their life. It never fails that a rapist accuses his mother for his current actions or a murderer blames the neighborhood they grew up in. We all have been abused at some point in our life whether is was the degrading verbal assault from a middle school bully or a boy who was sodomized by his father on a daily basis.

Personally, i lossed my virginity to a "friend" raping me, grew up with an emotionally and mentally abusive father who felt his heroin and vodka was more important than his children (and to this day, the latter has not changed), and just within the past year left a physically abusive fiance. Do i suffer from low self esteem? NO. Absolutely not.

That's not to say that occasionally i don't look at a Vogue magazine and thing i need to firm up my abs or watch an episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous and think about what a shit-hole my place is compared to theirs.....but that's normal, right? Everybody nod their heads.

The point is, it is not what a person has had to deal with in their lives, but how they deal with it.

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Originally posted by Jane SC
Hi Everyone,

Before I start ranting on, I ought to say that I come from a very dysfunctional family and that I was physically abused (but not sexually assaulted) almost from the age of 11 or so. It was one of those magazine-article middle class families that looked so wonderful from the outside but stank inside. So, by the time I was in my mid teens I had a very low self esteem. I was far from being diagnosably psychotic or mentally ill, but I am sure that analysts would have been queuing up to get me on their couches.

In fact it was my first owner who showed me that I should be proud of myself, even if it was in ways that hadn't seemed important to me up to then - things like my academic standards, my (hopefully) basic intelligence, my feelings for other people less fortunate than myself. I will say now that he was a great deal older than I was, and obviously far far wiser. But as well as 'training' me he also cared for me and built me up psychologically. He was just a wonderful guy to whom I feel nothing but gratitude.

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The things i say is not to make anyone else look bad....Jane, i really appreciate your post, your case is an exceptional one and i certainly hope my opinions and thoughts are not offensive to you.

However, not every man that claims to be dominant is going to know how to handle a situation like this, in fact, not every true dominant is going to be able to do so, it takes a special person to do for people what Jane's Masters did for her.

In general, it is my opinion that low or zero self-esteem is not a good thing in any type of relationship....for one, it is unattractive and can even be insulting to your mate, and it takes a rare person to not be brought down by another's person low self-esteem when they are emotionally involved. So, do i think it is right to dominate a low-self esteem submissive......generally speaking, no, i do not, because it takes a great deal of esteem and inner strength to hand the controls over to somebody else.