Stockings 101

I have been on an adventure of sorts recently. Master enjoys women in stockings and garters and... well... honestly i had never even considered them and had zero experience with them.

So, thanks to a very patient Dom and some wonderful sites i have finally started to understand the entire concept much better....

It is amazing how that is a world of it's own. There are degrees of sheerness in the stocking (denier), French Heel, Cuban Heel, fence net, flat knit, boarded, fully fashioned, etc... the list of terms seems endless.... and that is JUST in stockings!

Then for garters... when i was thinking garter i was thinking the cutsie little ones that come with the matching bra and panty sets. The ones that have a strap in the front, one in the back and just never seem to work well at all. Honestly, i was dreading the thought of fighting with those on a regular basis. Com'n ladies... we all know how annoying they can be. May look sexy as hell but give them an hour and you have sags in every direction! Much to my surprise though... there is an entire set of vocabulary to go with garters.... there are panels, and 6 straps, 8 straps, 10 straps and even a new 12 strap. In Europe the garter is sometimes called suspenders... there are garter hose, garter panties...

Then there is the entire how to, where to, when to thing on wearing them... some garters sit on the hips and some sit lower or higher... and what about the panty for those of us allowed?

These were all burning questions... and as i discussed this issue in chat i discovered that some knew a lot about it... but most were under the same previous impression i was....

So... in my research i found two amazing links. One is a glossary of terms, that other is a "how to wear" guide! Check them out for answers to all of your burning questions....

(awww...loving this thread and hate to be a party pooper hun, but the links you provided went to a commercial site and cannot be allowed. i will PM you with an alternate solution though ~winks~ --baby girl)

and let's have some fun....

What is your favorite type of stocking? Is there a better time that you prefer to wear them? Men... what is your take? Enjoy looking at them or are they just in the way? What else can those of you all ready well educated on this topic share? What are the other burning stocking questions out there???

Great thread precious!!

I came to the world of stockings just about a year ago and I love them, love the feeling of them, the freedom, the idea that all the conservative people where I live have no idea whats under my dress/skirt!

I looked out my stockings for wearing this evening this morning before I went to work. I loved going through the range I have and feeling and touching them as I make my choice. Tonight I am going with black with red seams and cuban heels although I may just change my mind at the last minute to the lace top fish nets....

My only tip would be to invest in some good quality suspender/garter belts. Cheap ones will only slip as you wear them making you pull your stockings up all day in a very unlady like manner!! Belts that have more than two fasteners are not only sexy, in my book, but better for staying power. If you do have a wonky belt attach a safety pin under the the little metal clasp you move to shorten/lengthen the suspender to keep it in place and stop it slipping down.

And if you must/want/are required to wear panties or a thong, then they go on the outside of the garter belt. (So they can be removed without unfastening the belt)

What a wonderful thread precious! smiles...i was/am very much like you...i have worn thigh highs, but usually just the less expensive ones, and very rarely with any luck at maintaining any "sexiness" between a finger going through or moving, sagging, rolling....LOL, i have so appreciated all of your efforts and willingness to share...smiles as i am sure Sir is also interested in pursuing this matter LOL

hugs!
cali

Haha, I am addicted to the site you mentioned. I have a major thing for stockings... I'm not sure whether it's an actual kink or just a fashion preference, since I tend to be almost as passionate about clothes as I am about sex! :)

I have been known to pout for *hours* because I had an adorable outfit and didn't have the right pair of stockings to go with it.

To keep the Admin's happy i have now placed the "Glossary of Hosiery Terms" in the thread directly!

Here they are in alphabetical order:

Boarding - The process applied to hosiery to improve the final presentation. When the hosiery is still damp from dying it is pulled over a metal form and subject to pressure and heat. This sets the garment to its familiar leg and foot profile. (used only with non-stretch or polyamide products).

Bustier - Corset like garment but lighter in weight and without the heavy structure of a corset. Bustiere's are usually shorter than corsets, ending at the waist, and are often worn on the outside rather than strictly as an undergarment. They usually come with four or six removable garters.

Circular Knit - Process in which modern seamless hosiery is made, which results in a tapered tube, which is then sewn closed at the toe.

Control Top - Pantyhose or Tights produced with the body section composed of a heavier lycra content and weight to act as a light control garment.

Cotton Gusset - Cotton or cotton compound fabric sewn into the gusset or crotch of pantyhose to allow them to “breathe”.(see Gusset)

Corset - A close fitting undergarment often tightened with laces and reinforced with stays. Most corsets extend from the breasts to the hips, and are constructed to enhance the figure by cinching the waist, thereby enhancing the bust and hips. Most corsets are fitted with four or more adjustable garter straps to support the stockings of your choice.

Cuban Heel - A rectangular designed reinforced heel, usually with a reinforced foot and backseam .Most Cuban heel stockings are also “Full Fashioned”.

Denier - Relates to the weight or fineness of the yarn, which in turn relates to the sheerness of the hosiery. The finer the yarn, the lower the denier. 30 denier is considered Opaque, 20 denier is sheer, 15 denier is ultra sheer, and 10 denier or less is the very sheerest. Sheerness varies with Lycra content. Generally the 100% nylon is the sheerest. A 15 deneir 100% nylon will be more sheer than a 10 deneir stretch stocking containg lycra.

European Heel - The European heel is similar to the Cuban heel but with a pointed design. It is also known as the French heel, or simply pointed heel.

Fancy Tights - Sometimes called Fashion Tights or Fashion Pantyhose. Usually consisting of a heavier denier and unusual design or knit pattern. They come in a vast array of designs, texture, and colors. Much more costly than regular tights or panty hose they are more durable and unique in nature.

Fiber Content - The composition of the yarn used in the garment. Most are 100% nylon or nylon-lycra blends for more memory and durability in the yarn.

Finishing Hole - The small opening in the back of fully-fashioned stockings where the stocking was folded over and sewn together. This detail allows the top welt to stretch for a more comfortable fit on the thigh, and is the unmistakable mark of the true full- fashioned stocking.

Flat Knit - The process used in making full-fashioned stockings, where the yarn is knitted flat on the machine and literally sewn together to form the backseam. The tops of the stocking are then folded over and sewn, forming the familiar double top welt and finishing hole in the back of the full-fashioned stocking.

Fence net - A very large net design similar to that of a chain link fence and used for stockings, hold-ups, and pantyhose.

Fishnet - A smaller net design, which is taken from the construction of a fisherman�s net, usually made of nylon or nylon-lycra blends. These come in seamless or seamed styles, with various designs of lace or silicone tops on the stockings and hold-ups. Also in tights or pantyhose which are very popular with dancers and for costumes.

French Heel - Original name for the pointed heel on seamed stockings, as opposed to the rectangular style of the Cuban Heel stocking. These have also become referred to as the European Heel or Pointed Heel.

Fully Fashioned Stockings - These are vintage style stockings of the 40�s and 50�s, made on the original flat knit machines, where the stocking is knitted flat and sewn together in the back. These stockings are usually knitted of 15 denier 100% nylon yarn, although some of the original vintage styles came on heavier 20 or 30 denier called “service weight” for everyday use. Authentic Fully-Fashioned stockings always have a top welt made by doubling over the top fabric and sewing it back unto itself. A “finishing hole” is always left in the seam in the middle of the top welt, which allows the stocking to fit better on the thigh. The design can be either of the “Cuban heel” or “Pointed French or European” style. If they are not flat knitted and sewn together with a finishing hole on the back, they are not authentic Full-Fashioned stockings but modern reproductions called Full Fashion or Full Fashioned style.

Full Fashioned Style - A reproduction of Fully-Fashioned stockings made on modern circular knit machines, with a sewn on seam with “French or Cuban” style heel. These modern versions do not have the doubled over top welt or finishing hole like their original counterparts, but are substantially cheaper to produce.

Garters - The clips that attach to the top welt of the stockings are called garters. Generally they are attached to an adjustable elastic strap, which is in turn attached to the garment worn on the waist or body, these are called garter straps. Sometimes as in the case of girdles and panty girdles the clips are attached directly to the garment without straps, these are garter clips. Garters are commonly referred to as suspenders in England.

Garter Belt - or garterbelts are sometimes called suspender belts in Europe. They are garments made for the express purpose of holding up stockings. They come in a variety of shapes and sizes, with four to twelve adjustable straps to hold up the stockings. The garterbelt and the stockings should be considered a team. Stretch stockings usually require only a four-strap garterbelt to keep it in place. Non-stretch 100% nylons on the other hand require at least six straps to keep them from sagging. The height of the wearer is also an issue. Most garterbelts have straps that are too long to properly support stockings unless the wearer is 5�8” or more. We sell garterbelts with much shorter straps, and even some models with extremely short straps for those who prefer the comfort of wearing their stockings very high. Also waist size is important. We sell many garterbelts in sizes 38” to 50,” and for those more straps are necessary for proper support.

Garter hose - This refers to a garment where a waist band, garter straps and stocking legs are permanently attached in one piece, simulating the use of a garterbelt and stockings, but in fact being a one piece garment.

Garter panty - A panty usually made of stretch fabric which contains garter straps or garter clips to hold up stockings without need for a garterbelt, girdle or corset.

Girdle - These are stretch garments sold to control the mid-section, and hold stockings up high and tight.They come in open bottom styles and panty girdles. Open bottom or OBG�s are a step above a garterbelt, when the wearer wants more support or control in the midsection. Panty girdles are basically a support panty with garters, as the name suggests.

Girdlette - A garment that is larger than a garterbelt and smaller than a girdle.

Gossamer - The dictionary refers to gossamer as a light, thin, filmy like cloth. We see that filminess and sheen in the100% non-stretch nylons made famous by the artist Vargas, and the model Bettie Page.

Gusset - A triangular or diamond shaped piece inserted into a garment for structural value. Usually referred to as the piece inserted into the crotch area of pantyhose or tights.

Hold-Ups - Stockings that stay up without the need for garters. True hold-ups usually consist of a decorative stretch lace top, with a silicone band inside of the lace to help grip the leg.

Hosiery - General term meaning leg covering such as stockings, pantyhose, tights, or socks.

Lacetop Stockings - these are traditional stockings in that they need to be held up with garters, but they have a lace top sewn to the top for added detail.

Link-ups - This is a name trademarked by Pretty Polly of England, for their new stocking system that attaches them directly to a matching panty or thong, thus eliminating the need for garters. This is similar to the one-piece hose, but much better as the stocking legs can be interchanged separately.

Lycra - Lycra is a term trademarked by DuPont for a man made fiber that they developed, which can be produced in a range of types and deniers. It is most commonly combined with nylon for use in the hosiery industry.

Nylon - A man made fiber made from petroleum. It is noted for its strength, sheerness, and bright luster. Nylon can be produced in cross sections, altering its appearance and feel.

Nylons - A traditional term often used to describe the high gossamer stockings if the 50�s and 60�s, when stockings were all made of 100% non-stretch ultra-sheer nylon.

Opera hose - This item was very popular in the 50�s and 60�s but is not seen very often today. They are very long stockings, meant to be gartered, gut without the usual welt on the top. The garters are attached to a small band at the top of the stocking, giving a long un-interrupted look to the leg. These stockings require very short garters.

Opaque - The term given to stockings or tights when made of a higher denier yarn, making them less transparent and appear more dense than the lighter deniers.

Pantyhose - A one piece hosiery garment consisting of two sheer legs connected to a panty and waistband. Pantyhose are usually of a 15 or 20 denier yarn and transparent, as opposed to tights, which are usually constructed of 30 denier yarn and are usually more opaque to solid in color than pantyhose.

Polyamide - The European term for nylon yarn.

Pointed Heel - A pointed reinforcement on the back of seamed hosiery which is also known as a“French or European” heel.

Pyramid Heel - A heel similar to a pointed heel, but which reaches the point in a series of steps like a pyramid.

RHT - Or Reinforced Heel and Toe stockings as they are properly called, became popular in the 1960�s, right after the advent of the circular knit machines. This allowed the manufacture of seamless stockings for the first time. These stockings have a darker reinforcement on the toe and the reciprocal heel to prevent runs, and they have become a nostalgic retro item throughout the years much like the Fully-Fashioned stockings of the 40�s and 50�s.

Reinforced - The sections of a garment that have been strengthened by double knitting to provide additional durability.This usually resulted in a darkening of the area, which is then considered a design feature. This is exemplified in the top welt of the stocking by the reinforcements of the full fashions and the RHT�s.

Semi-opaque - This is a term to describe hosiery that is slightly translucent but not totally non transparent. It is usually of a lighter denier tight, or a heavier denier stocking of hold-up.

Sandal Foot - Also known as sandal-toe, they are called sandlefoot because they can be worn with open toe or open sandal style shoes, and give the appearance of a nude foot. They are always seamless, and usually made of a light denier yarn.

Seamed - This term applies to all hosiery, no matter what style, which has a back seam on it. This can be a sewn on backseam or an actual sewn in back seam like fully-fashioned stockings and some fishnets.

Shadow toe - This refers to a slightly reinforced toe sometimes called a run-guard toe. It is barely seen, and gives the protection of the reinforced toe, without the noticeable darkening detail.

Sheen - This is a term, sometimes called gossamer given to the shininess or glitter like appearance of the stockings. 100% nylon non-stretch stockings and nylon-lycra blends have a very high sheen, which is their trademark.

Sheer - Sheerness is a function of light denier and full transparency. It is usually meant to reveal the lightness and filminess of the garment.

Silicone - A rubber like polymer, which maintains its elasticity over a wide range of temperatures. Used inside the lace top ofhold-up stockings to cling to the skin and keep the stocking up without garters.

Stockings - Although the popular use of this word has come to be anything worn on the legs (i.e. pantyhose, hold-ups or tights) we will stick with the more traditional definition. Stockings, as referred to on this web site, are the traditional style that are put on individually and attached to a garter at the top for support. These can come in plain top, satin top, or lace top, but should not be confused with hold-ups, which stay up by themselves.

Suspender belt - The European term for garterbelt.

Suspender hose - Commonly used term in Europe for a type of hose that are similar to panty hose but have no panty. The nylon leg runs all the way to the waistband, but the panty portion has been eliminated.

Stretch sheer - Stretch sheer usually refers to the use 15 denier or less for use in hosiery. The material can be stretch nylon yarn, or nylon-lycra stretch yarn.

Tights - These are pantyhose made of a heavier denier in opaque or semi-opaque yarns. They are dyed usually in deep colors, and they are more sporty and durable than pantyhose.

Ultra sheer - This term refers to the very light deniers, of very light transparency and high sheen. Usually of 100% non-stretch nylon.Some lycra /nylon yarns of less than 8 denier can be ultra-sheer.

Victorian - This style is articulated in its unique details, and ornate patterns, originating in the Victorian era of England in the late 18th century.

Waist Cinch - A structured garment similar to a corset, but starting below the bosom.

Welt - This is the top most portion of the stocking where the garter clips attach. This portion is always reinforced by double stitching, and sometimes folded over and sewn onto itself as in fully-fashioned stockings. The portion where most manufacturers leave their mark, a distinct design stitched into the welt that is unique to themselves, or that style of stocking is called an underwelt.

Gosh ... to much reading would rather see pics. :hubba:

Once more... to keep the Admin's happy... here is the information on "how to" wear stockings.... enjoy!

With the increase in popularity of wearing stockings, my wife wanted to give them a try. After some trial and error, with help from her friends and what I could find on the internet (unfortunately most sites are porn oriented) she now enjoys wearing stockings. Here's what we learned about "how to wear stockings"

To wear stockings, you need a garter belt (in Europe the accessory is call suspenders). Good garter belts are comfortable and don�t cost much more than the little lacey ones that are not practical for long wear. Worn on top of the hip, garter belts are usually 4 to 6 inches in length, measured from top to bottom � this measurement does not include the straps. The 8-inch garter belt has recently become popular. Wider garter belts, called full or girdlette (10 to 12 inches), can offer support for the waistline. Girdles, Corsets and Waist cinchers are other articles of lingerie that can have straps for stockings. So you can easily incorporate stockings with different lingerie.

The straps from the garter belt attach to the stocking by clasps and the more straps, the better. The more straps used, the smoother the stocking will look and if on that rare occasion a clasp breaks, there would be no sag in your stocking. Metal clasps are better than plastic ones and be sure the straps are adjustable so you can custom fit the amount of tension on the stocking. Most stockings have a top area that is thicker than the stocking itself, this is called the Welt and the clasps are attached to the welt. Don�t substitute thigh highs for stockings because the thick rubber can bend the clasps. Stretch stocking wearers can use a four-strap garter belt but non-stretch stockings work better with at least six straps.

A good starting point for strap adjustment is to make the back straps 2 inches longer than the front straps and 1 inch longer than the side straps. Some garter belts are cut / shaped longer in the back than in the front to help in this area because when you sit down there is a farther distance to go on your back side to reach the stocking. When standing, there should be a slight pull on the stockings but the word here is slight � over pull will either damage the stocking or cause the garter belt to slid down. If you are wearing stretch stockings, you can keep the straps tighter, letting the stocking do some of the give.

The first few times you wear stockings, wear them around the house for a while before you leave to be sure you have everything adjusted properly. If you are wearing a short skirt, be sure to sit down and see if the stockings are long enough.

The most important rule is don�t look at the pictures � if you wear panties put them on LAST. Think going to the bathroom � if you have your stockings and garter belt over your panties then you have to remove everything to go to the bathroom.

Rules for stockings are the same as pantyhose: no jagged finger nails and toe nails; remove rings if they are not smooth; hands should be smooth or wear hosiery gloves; roll the stocking down into an O-shape, place thumbs inside then start unrolling over the foot and up the leg (pointing toes, foot forward helps). Hand wash by gently swishing and squeezing the stockings (don�t rub or twist) in lukewarm water using a product like Woolite (another great product is Hosiery Mate and you don�t need to rinse) � rinse in clean water, gently squeezing and then lay out flat on a towel to dry (room temperature away from direct heat). You can also use a drying tree.

Attach the back straps first. This helps to keep the stocking straight (even ones without a seam). If you are wearing seamed stockings, place the back strap in line with the seam (seamed stockings are best worn with 6 or more straps which will keep the seam straight). Try sitting down which makes it easier to attach the back straps. Another trick is not to pull the garter belt all the way up until you have attached the straps to the stockings. Better yet, have a friend / spouse / partner attach the back strap for you. To keep your stockings from twisting, attach the straps straight down from the garter belt. If you are wearing Full Fashion stockings, do not put the clasp in the finishing hole � this is a weak area of the stocking.

There are different types of stockings. Most stockings are made from nylon and some stretch while others do not. Non-stretch stockings are knitted and boarded to fit (heated on a board) � they look like your leg, not a ball of material. Denier is the thickness of the nylon yarn � the lower the number, the sheerer the stocking. Full Fashion is a stocking that starts as a flat piece of non-stretch nylon material and then the sides are sewn together to create the stocking and the process creates a seam. If you remove the seam stitching on a Full Fashion stocking, you will end up with a flat piece of material. The finishing hole (looks like a defect in the welt) is made during the stitching process of Full Fashioned stockings as the seamstress finishes the stitch. Stockings made on a circular knitting machine can still have a seam but it is just for looks.

Two pairs of stockings will last three pairs of pantyhose since you toss out pantyhose when you get a runner in one leg but with stockings, you just toss out the one with the runner and still use the other.

Most internet sites that sell stockings give very good information about their stockings and sizing but you may have to try different brands / styles to get the perfect fit - so don�t buy six pairs because you get a price break until you know they fit properly. Get friends together to share shipping costs. Don�t be afraid to ask questions � retailers want your repeat business so they are not going to steer you wrong.

~smiles~ thank you sweetie.

Stockings are amazing. There is nothing better. All submissives should wear them. All the time. Nothing is sexier. You shouldn't need a garter belt. Your thighs should hold them up. It helps to go to the gym to strengthen your thigh muscles.

well done precious! Master is proud.

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Originally Posted by pancakepopple

Stockings are amazing. There is nothing better. All submissives should wear them. All the time. Nothing is sexier. You shouldn't need a garter belt. Your thighs should hold them up. It helps to go to the gym to strengthen your thigh muscles.

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From what i have read it doesn't appear, depending on the stockings, that many people are able to hold them up with just thigh muscles....

Nice thought though....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheDeSade

well done precious! Master is proud.

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*smiles*

Thank You Master...

The only stockings I've ever worn were a pair of fishnets with elastic bands on the top so they didn't need garters or weird sticky stuff or anything. That seemed to work pretty well.

I've always thought garters were really cool-looking, but they sound like a lot of work. -_-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

The only stockings I've ever worn were a pair of fishnets with elastic bands on the top so they didn't need garters or weird sticky stuff or anything. That seemed to work pretty well.

I've always thought garters were really cool-looking, but they sound like a lot of work. -_-

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What you are referring to are considered "hold-ups." They are also popular, and worn by many, but as i have discovered, do not have the same overall complete effect in some ways depending on the person you are trying to entice... apparently there is something to be said for the little "clasp" bumps under tight skirts that help to set the imagination running.... *grinz*

Something also to consider with those, depending on the person, they may not stay up as easily as they could, and i know in my case i apparently am allergic to the elastic banding. And, yes, i did try several different brands.

The hardest part i am having at the moment is i seem to be tearing them each time i turn around. i don't recall every having ripped hose so easily before. Especially around the toe area.... Any recommendations from those out there with more experience? Is the toe issue related to the fact the stocking is being pulled too tight?

Other than that after having experienced stockings for just a VERY short while i am finding them to be a very pleasurable experience for many different reasons... although perhaps my favorite reasoning is because feeling the garter straps against my thighs each day reminds me in some ways of being placed into bondage.... *smiles* which is a nice reminder/distraction to have....

Great thread. Stockings, hose and the like are easily some of the most erotic and sexy-feeling garments you can put on, and the taste is deeply personal.

I like this topic!
In my (limited) experience, many easily available stockings tend to be more sheer, and hence, more easily run. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean run-proof! I shopped around until I found a brand that makes stockings in Tall sizes. I think it helps, along with *not* buying a very sheer stocking--at least if you want them to last for more than one wearing!
I also don't think the "hold-ups" ever stay up. Just my opinion, but it's really annoying if you're walking around and one of your stockings either rolls down or sags. Ugh!
(Besides...I always wonder who notices the garter straps under the skirt in my suit! I always do my part to keep the meetings from being dull!)

for your information, some of us pay close attention to those telltale bumps on a thigh under a skirt and exactly what it means. . . . smiles. . . .

Which is why I generally wear hold-ups for work. Life is complicated enough without adding to it.

cariad

Another problem I have experienced with hold ups, is irritation. I have had a couple times where I wore hold ups and after I while I could feel something was wrong, the top band was starting to hurt and it felt like it was burning my skin and when I took them off it was like pulling off a really well stuck bandage. I had marks on my legs for like 3 days. I much prefer ones i have to use a garter with. I just need to expand my garter collection so I have more to wear with different outfits.

OHHH Precious ... Thank you thank you thank you for this thread .... you have no idea how much i need it right now at this moment in life.

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Originally Posted by DrkRvn

Another problem I have experienced with hold ups, is irritation. I have had a couple times where I wore hold ups and after I while I could feel something was wrong, the top band was starting to hurt and it felt like it was burning my skin and when I took them off it was like pulling off a really well stuck bandage. I had marks on my legs for like 3 days. I much prefer ones i have to use a garter with. I just need to expand my garter collection so I have more to wear with different outfits.

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That's the kind where it stays up by being sort of sticky inside, right? Those always seemed weird and suspicious to me, but I don't see what's wrong with elastic-band stockings... I mean, the elastic itself doesn't even touch your skin, since it's inside the cloth...

I have never been able to make the ones that have and elastic band at he top stay put right. and the stuff isn't supposed to be sticky sticky or even tacky its just rubberized or silicone so it doesn't slip. I've had some pairs that worked just fine and others that didn't I think it depends on what material the rubberized stuff is.

wow. i came looking for information and look what i find. and i've only been here a day. interesting information.

OK... tossing out another question or two (sort of) to those of you out there with experience in this area....

This morning i tried on my first set of "boarded" stockings. The ones specifically designed to match the contour of the leg without any stretch, etc. i found them to be rather... umm... horrible and i'm not sure if it was just the brand or what. They were high quality, but they didn't feel right and did not shape to my leg to give it the look that i am getting so fond of. NO matter what i did they seemed to sag around the ankle and knee. What, if anything, could be done to prevent this?

Also, i have noticed that depending on the brand/etc. the stocking comes to different heights on my leg. Is there one more "standard" height that is should be at? Either they are so high up that the garter belt can't do it's job correctly, no matter how short i make the suspenders or they are so low that i feel that they are going to fall no matter how well the suspender works....

Any suggestions?

My personal opinion is forget the boarded ones and get a good pair of lycra ones. I have worked my way through a number of shaped ones, and some are better than others, but all left me with the feeling of why bother.

And I have the same experience regardling length - even sometimes within the same brand. My answer has been trial and error in finding types - brand and style which fit - and even then I have gone sadly wrong. The all time low has been one pair which I wear as socks, with elastics, under floor length casual skirts.

cariad