What makes you submissive?

[gemmy]

As a side note from another thread, i've noticed subs have different things in their make up that are common and i wondered if there are some things that make or 'set' our submissiveness as we go through this world.

myself, i've known my whole life (and before i knew what it was called), i've had sexual outdoor bondage fantasies since i was a very young gurl (8 at least).

also, when i was five i was put with a horrible family that abused me constantly in all the forms, beatings, emotional degradation, sexual abuse when i got older - i left when i was 13 and moved around living in the streets for a few years before getting back on track and finishing school - in that time i'd been raped 3 times

i would follow this cycle of abuse for most of my years, picking abusing aggressors over confident assertives - i now know the difference and it's been 10 yrs since a man has put me in the hospital

so, although i know i was submissive before all the abuse, i wonder if it hasn't had a hand in further 'setting' the seed of my submission, firmly planting it there?

i know that the abuse didn't help my judgement, and in the past i was giving into an unhealthy submission of their deciding as opposed to a healthy submission of my choosing

now, no one gets to take advantage of me since breaking that cycle for good but i wonder if it's had a firm hand and if others think things like this has in their submissiveness as well?

*disclaimer* i'm not trying to put it all in one 'box', just wondering if we share any commonalities period *smiles*

[Warbaby1943]

I can't speak for them but from what I have read here and at other forums of similar types many subs seem to have a background much like yours. It will be interesting to follow this thread to see what is said. Thanks for starting it.

[Isabella King]

It really worries me that so many subs seem to have suffered abuse. It's not a prerequisite of the job title - although I can understand how young girls may get sucked into this kind of behaviour. But, with all respect for the pain you've been through, Sammi, I want to make a point of saying that no man has ever hit me without my permission.

Yep, I've always known - it's definitely in the blood - but I haven't got the first clue why not that it matters.

I didn't become whole until I met my husband. I needed him as much as he needed me. The fact that he has control of my life makes me stronger.

[Polaris]

Actually...I've been wondering the same thing, but was too shy to ask. So double thanks for posting this.

I also always knew, way before there was a name for it. I, too, have an abusive background -- albeit not sexual, and not excessively physical. When I broke the cycle...or at least finally began to stand on my feet, this really bothered me for a while. Firstly, there is this cliché that submissive women are submissive due to some abuse-trauma, which I personally find somewhat ridiculous...and I certainly didn't want to be part of this cliché. And secondly, it somehow shattered everything I thought to be true about myself. Being submissive and being abused are two entirely different things, though. It's hard to explain, but it feels completely different. One is healthy and one is destructive. Argh, I'm not good at that.

That aside, I think it contributed to the way I'm wired. If you live a major part of your life learning that you are never good enough (and never can be) and are forced to play a game where you can't win and where the rules are constantly changing...well, it's awesome to be able to please somebody entirely, to be appreciated and valued, and to play by rules that do not only apply to both parties, but which are also kept and respected.

Just my thoughts on the topic. I'll follow this thread with curiosity, with hopes for some more insight.

[Sir_Russell]

It is a shame but many submissive have a background of abuse both sexual and emotional. I think that is what makes them submissives the need a Dom that can give them love, protection and some stability.

[cadence]

I honestly don't believe there is a specific connection between being submissive and living a prior abusive past. Then again I am far too lazy to look up any relavant information that may substantiate my statement.

I would presume that we are born with submissive traits and maybe our environment helps to grow or hinder that side of ourselves.

I have never been physically nor emotionally abused. Well, if you talk to others, they would say that my parents were a bit too heavy with the discipline, but I have never been affected by that overall.

I had spoken to another submissive once about the similar behavioural traits we shared as young childeren. We both used to bang our heads against the wall or the floor when we were upset. However she is more into pain, I am into humiliation. The similarities stopped there.

I could say that I have had some kinky fantasies at a very young age, but I really didn't figure out my submissive side until much later in life. When I realized that I would rather put someone else's wants and needs before my own. That it makes me happier to please and be pleasing.

I sometimes dislike connecting anything sexual with my submissive side, only because I suffer from OCD, and when I was younger, I used masturbation as a way of coping with the triggers I had.

So anytime I am stressed or if I am triggered, I will use sex as a way to cope.
I find it more difficult to come to terms with sex and submission at the same time.

[TomOfSweden]

I honestly don't believe there is a specific connection between being submissive and living a prior abusive past. Then again I am far too lazy to look up any relavant information that may substantiate my statement.

I've read up on as much psychology research on this as I have been able to find. The problem is that it isn't a lot. Very little research has been done on the roots of masochism. On the other hand there's been a little more research on "how to cure this mental affliction of masochism". Which today is pretty dated in how we view sexual fetishes.

We do know that our brain is super effective at drawing conclusions based on flimsy evidence. It's built/evolved for speed in dangerous situations and not for correctness in pondering the big questions. We really can't draw the conclusion, "I am a masochist" and "I was abused" therefore "the abuse made me a masochist".

The mental back-flip here is that it assumes a healthy or natural starting point of our sexual desires which doesn't include masochism or kinks. Nobody has been able to find such a person. All our sexual needs are extremely complex.

Not to get too deep here, but the Western philosophical tradition we inherited from Plato starts with the assumption that we're faulty, (since we live in the land of the mortals) and that perfection/harmony/health can be attained if we rid ourselves of something holding us back or perhaps we're permanently broken by some damage earlier in our lives. In Plato's day mental perfection could be found among the Gods. This thinking still permeates our culture completely. Christians even think it's some kind of virtue to accept this original sin. Scientologists identify the negative energy as extra terrestrial parasites. New Ager's babble on about attaining harmony constantly without any deeper thought about what it means.

There is off course no such thing as the the mind in harmony. Or some kind of enlightened state of eternal bliss. Or even state of total mental health. Or let me rephrase that. No scientist has been able to find any brain that doesn't have some sort of easily identified pathology. We have a culture revolving around beating ourselves up for mental short-comings. Just stop. Don't try to find the act that was the root of it, because you'll most likely simplify it too much or just simply be wrong.

The word de jour is "biologism" or "biological determinism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biologism
This is the trend right now, and more and more research is piling up to prove it right. If it swings back to behaviourism time will tell. But it's looking pretty bleak for their camp today.


What modern science are saying on this issue seems to indicate that, if you're born with a submissive brain in our culture you're more likely to get abused by those who identify your submissiveness and take advantage of it. In other words. Nothing and nobody makes you through their actions submissive.

The ability to enjoy being beaten is linked to how much endorphins your brain releases when pain is inflicted. Nothing complicated and very easy to understand. No magic. There's nothing you can do with your brain to change this. This is simply the brain you're born with. Yes, you're more likely to discover this "ability" early in life if you where beaten as a kid. And that's a good thing. But you can't acquire the liking of this purely physical feature by early abuse. That's just not how our brains work.

But the field of psychology has a very far way to go when it comes to research in this. They don't like to do research in a field where they won't discover something that needs years of therapy to cure. It's not in their professional interest. And all the limited research seems to indicate that masochism and submissiveness is not something we acquire as the result of something being broken.

[jeanne]

And all the limited research seems to indicate that masochism and submissiveness is not something we acquire as the result of something being broken.

If I were super-rich, I'd fund this research.

And I'm glad that there's at least something that says masochism/submissiveness isn't the result of being broken. Sometimes we just are who we are...

[Isabella King]

I would be incredibly offended if someone called me broken

[gemmy]

What modern science are saying on this issue seems to indicate that, if you're born with a submissive brain in our culture you're more likely to get abused by those who identify your submissiveness and take advantage of it. In other words. Nothing and nobody makes you through their actions submissive.

well done Tom!

[icey]

thankyou mastersgem for being so honest...that was really big of you and very brave *hugs*

im with TomOfSweden to a degree and i know ive personally put myself in that position through being the more submissive personality on quite a few occasions,but thats as i became older,and arnt all young children submissive in some way or another to any adult or authority?

and the majority of child abuse often begins at a very young age i had a sexual r/ship from around the age of 5 to 13 with a trusted family member.

im not sure that it isnt related with my interests and preferences if im totally honest because when i look back the person who from the age of 5 onwards 'taught' me about sex and submission and 'taught' me to enjoy what i later learnt as an adult is called bdsm so ive often wondered if that isnt a large part of it,because without getting too personal if im honest in a strange way and i know its not 'normal' although extremely frightened i did sort of enjoy some aspects of it.

so i still dont know if i enjoyed it then because i was made that way or if i enjoyed it because i was taught to.

there does unfortunately though seem to be a very high number of submissives who were abused as children and you have to wonder just how much of a connection there may be.
and whlst its true to say that a person cant make you who/what you are its just as true that all your lifes experiences the good and the bad ultimately shape you into who and what you are.

im not saying very well what im meaning to say sorry its a difficult topic to express clearly or it is for me anyway lol

[Isabella King]

It is a shame but many submissive have a background of abuse both sexual and emotional. I think that is what makes them submissives the need a Dom that can give them love, protection and some stability.

Nooooooh!

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

I agree with cadence. I have been submissive all my life and have had submissive sexual fantasies as early as I can remember, ones that involve kidnapping, rape, being held against my will, being forced to surrender/submit, etc. Yet, I was not physically or sexually abused while growing up. I didn't suffer abuse until I was in my first marriage, which was vanilla. My ex was the one who subjected me to emotional, verbal and physical abuse. But none of that was a turn on for me and none of it made me more submissive.
I have never been one to analyze why I am the way that I am. I just accept my sexuality for what it is and enjoy it. I believe that sexual submissiveness is something you are born with. If something in my past made me this way I have not come across it. But I do know that it was not former abuse on anyone's part that made me a sexual submissive and masochist.

[GreyJack]

The human psyche -- as any Captain Obvious can tell you -- is a complex thing. I think in the case of those suffering previous abuses, the seeking to surrender to a controlling "agent" or "entity" which protects and cares for acts as a balance to the previous abusive controllers. A similar transferral acts as a "balance" to those people who must be controlling in their job, for example, but want to submit in the bedroom. There are some people, without question, who are "born submissive" or "born dominant" -- and within those groups are the "good, the bad, and the ugly." The good come to grips with the realities, face them, and are able to establish positive relationships; the "bad" are those who cannot establish any balance and allow their "innate self" (submissive or dominant) to become destructive to themselves and others. The "ugly" I would consider those who are users -- again either submissive or dominant. They are conscious they could change their behavior/attitude/etc. to acheive a more humane emotional/psychological balance, but remain too self-centered to even try or get some assistance. These are also often the cynical who measure everyone else by their own "standard" and also measure them by the "value" of how well they can be "used" by this abusive type of person. Just my two cents worth of observation, and, again, obviously, it doesn't just apply to BDSM folk but across the human spectrum of activities and behaviors.

[rivka]

My story follows closely to the lines of yours, mastersgem. I was introducted into sexuality when I was very young. I was molested many times by one of my uncles when I lived in Grenada. I was physically and mentally abused there by my stepmother, until my father finally found out and we moved. I was raped by my fathers best friend when I was thirteen, which played in role in me being fascinated with forced sex play. I've always been the type of person to do as they're told and not ask questions. I just never realized there was an actual relationship like that until I began talking with Shaun, my previous Master. He gave me a few websites and I finally realized my place in life.

[PrincessTigerLily]

I've always had sexual fantasies that involved being forced to perform sexual acts, kidnapping, being tied up and in general being "submissive" (before I knew the term for it).
Some time later I had a boyfriend who was abusive to me sexually, physically and emotionally. While I still had those fantasies, his abuse did not further root my submissiveness. When he forced things upon me it was not a turn on, I hated every minute of it. He did not have my trust and I did not willingly give him control. This is a big difference for me. When I play with my Master I have given him the power on my own accord. My past abusive relationship has somewhat tainted my submissiveness. I still have the deep desire to serve my Master but there are times when the past abuse comes back to haunt me and I cannot perform my fantasies.
At least for my case, the abuse hindered my submissive nature purely for the reason that the power and control this man had over me was abused.

[Isabella King]

Nicely put, Tigerlily.

I’m convinced that we are born with submissive traits; hot wired through our genes somehow, to crave the thrill of forced sex. If we have fantasies of kidnap, imprisonment and rape before any abuse ever takes place, then it can’t possibly be caused by the abuse, can it?

I’ve never been abused but whilst I was growing up and discovering my weird self, I put myself in some really compromising positions and did some pretty dangerous stuff simply because I felt compelled to act out these things in my mind.

I'm not looking for a cure

[Sir_Russell]

All I can say to all of this is after the decades in this lifestyle and more then a few sub/slaves it is a theme that I have seen many times. This isn't scientific but it has been my experience.

Not truly shocking since the stats I have seen show that at least 25% of the women in this country have admitted to being abused sexually. That is a very high % in that study to admit that.

As far be broken I don't buy that either, I have been around the block a few times and I am not looking to have a slave that is damaged. Course aren't we all damaged by life and we either find a way to get over it and grow stronger or we get a nice soft padded room to live in.

I was whipped by mommie dearest to the point that I have ribbon scars on my back that show up when I get really angry. That sure didn't make me a sub, even then I was very much a Dom.

[TomOfSweden]

Not truly shocking since the stats I have seen show that at least 25% of the women in this country have admitted to being abused sexually. That is a very high % in that study to admit that.

I've mentioned it before here. A couple of years ago there was a Swedish study where they asked 18 year old women if they had ever been the victim of sexual assault. Things like unwelcome groping was included. The result was 100% of all Swedish women had by the time they were 18 had at least once been the victim of sexual assault. And with our adamant stance on equaliy hammered into Swedish boys, I doubt Sweden is any worse than anywhere else. Quite possibly less sexual assault.

A bit simplistically put, if sexual assault leads to masochism and all women have been assaulted sexually, all women should be masochists. There must obviously be other factors at play. I mean, if a submissive/masochistic women would search her past and find an instance of sexual abuse and use that as an explanation, we are in fact only presenting an illusion of an explanation. No matter how severe the sexual assault was, we have in fact no reason to believe there's a connection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[DowntownAmber]

Interesting thread. Thanks you mastersgem for the OP.

I'm inclined to agree with GreyJack: the human psyche isn't exactly a simple matter. We start out with a basic mental mapping, and we use that set of directions to respond to and navigate through what life flings in our way.

In my case, the submissive urges and fantasies surfaced pretty early. They have (obviously) continued into the present. In my work and in my day to day life, I'm a pretty Dom and a pretty controlling personality. I look at my submission partially as a respite from the stress of that, and partially as a symbolic way for me to say to a partner, "my submission is a gift unique to you." Knowing what I know about myself now, I can take an educated glance back at my childhood and realize I felt a lot of pressure even then as I was a fairy mature and pretty bright little kid; and I wonder if the submissive desires weren't sewn into the mental soil then as a way to relax from that?

As for the turn this thread has taken in touching on abuse, again, we all start out hard wired a certain way and abuse of any type can have many and varied different results. It is true that A LOT of victims of physical or sexual abuse will seek out partners that are abusers themselves in a misguided attempt to be able to relive and correct the mistakes of the past. They feel that if they can change the course of things in the present, the wounds of the past will heal. Others will seek out a "safe" way to play through the trauma, i.e. a D/s relationship where the "abuse" is safe, sane, and consensual. In my case, something completely different still: in my mid twenties I began and ended a serious relationship with a man that had very Dom tendancies I was attracted to. We had been friends for some time, I thought it would be okay, but as soon as I was "his" the Dom tendancies turned controlling and I stepped ut of the relationship. Let's just say he didn't take too especially kindly to that and I ended up on the recieving end of a pretty spectacular beating. A few broken ribs and a black eye later, there wasn't ANYTHING subbie about me AT ALL. I topped in every relationship afterward just to grab back some semblance of my sense of control and safety. My relatinship with J-Go is the first since then that I've allowed the sub level of vulnerability back into my life.

One very long winded post later... There's no formula for a sub, no formula for a Dom. You start with a person's general make up, mix them with some life and see what happens. It is, however, a REALLY GOOD THING for both Doms and subs in a partnership to talk about and try and discover where they came from and why. It's all about communication and knowing each other and yourself.

[gemmy]

Thank you Amber - great post and it generally agrees and goes along with what everyone is saying and I, as well, agree

I also do understand there are many submissives out there who've led golden lives and have never felt the hand of abuse on them, it was more to see what the abused gurls thought and what people in general thought about the idea that abuse makes one submissive - thank you all for the responses, it's been interesting

I have had many 'Doms' ask me if it's some sick or twisted revelation of my abusive past that has made me submissive and it is why I wanted to post the original question. I sincerely believe we are who we are from birth, our personality is born and although things will change us slightly over a course of time, our 'hard-wiring' is set.

These 'Doms' who have asked me never believe me when I say I was far more submissive before getting abused, than after and like Amber says - if anything it made me more Dominant when I got abused, to push away anything or anyone who may think to try it again.

It is also fairly common, I've noticed, that many submissives have positions of authority in their workplace and I'm no different - I've been running and managing companies most of my professional life, although with a soft approach as opposed to any 'hard as balls' dominant one lol and yes, I've been quite successful for those companies I have grown. Maybe this is a more prevalent commonality among us subs than the abuse one?

Submissives, when recognized by skilled abusers, are a direct target - I have learned that much - it is written on our person somehow and it can get taken advantage of when spotted. I've also learned how to read their 'writing' in return *winks* and it helps in preventing them ever abusing me again. It isn't without backlash though and when they see they can't take advantage, a very angry and accusing person appears lol

[Polaris]

Submissives, when recognized by skilled abusers, are a direct target - I have learned that much - it is written on our person somehow and it can get taken advantage of when spotted. I've also learned how to read their 'writing' in return *winks* and it helps in preventing them ever abusing me again. It isn't without backlash though and when they see they can't take advantage, a very angry and accusing person appears lol[/QUOTE]

Sorry to take that out of context a little -- there were other interesting points in the post -- but I really wanted to follow up that thought. I'm not sure if it's the submissiveness that speaks to abusers. I am still submissive, and I am more submissive than dominant in every aspect of my life...this is to say, I think if you look out for signs, you would find them easily in my case -- but I have somehow stopped to attract abusive people. What has changed is not that I am no more submissive, but I've learnt some reasonable human responses to unreasonable requests...that is to say, I've learnt to say no, sometimes I even manage to not feel guilty about it. It's like in Amber's story: When she realised that the behaviour of her (dom)partner was more controlling (thus, unhealthy) than dominant (thus healthy), she walked out -- which is the only sane reaction. What I would have done would have been very likely to make up excuses for his behaviour and blame myself -- which is neither a sane nor a healthy reaction.

What I have (or had) written all over myself was probably not 'submissive' but 'codependent'. Of course, the submissive qualities may play into it, as well. And this is what makes it so complicating -- it's, to me, two different things, yet at some point they seem to overlap. And as I can't quite point out where that is, or how these things connect (or don't connect, at that), it bothers me.

As far as my relationships are concerned (not that I had that many), ALL my vanilla relationships were abusive in one way or another. NONE of my BDSM relationships were abusive in any way. This is something that makes me wonder as well.

I'm afraid that's more questions than answers, but I truly appreciate all the other's insight and input!

[Isabella King]

I reckon this thread needs a change of direction.

When I was about twelve I used to walk around the country lanes where I lived with no clothes on Cars even passed me by How stupid was that?

When I was a teenager I used to dress in tiny short skirts, no knickers, high heeled thigh length boots, skimpy revealing tops and my mum's wig and walk the streets of the local town pretending to be a prostitute How lucky was I to return home still a virgin

Did I secretly hope to be kidnapped or ravished? Yeah, drowning in raging hormones that I didn't know how to control, I think I did.

I don't think I deserved to still be a virgin when I got married but I'm so glad I was.


NB: Posting after drinking a bottle of red wine could lead to embarrassment...
I also did other things but it would take more than one bottle of wine to reveal any more.

[tydnchaynz{NSXX}]

It is also fairly common, I've noticed, that many submissives have positions of authority in their workplace and I'm no different - I've been running and managing companies most of my professional life, although with a soft approach as opposed to any 'hard as balls' dominant one lol and yes, I've been quite successful for those companies I have grown. Maybe this is a more prevalent commonality among us subs than the abuse one?

Submissives, when recognized by skilled abusers, are a direct target - I have learned that much - it is written on our person somehow and it can get taken advantage of when spotted. I've also learned how to read their 'writing' in return *winks* and it helps in preventing them ever abusing me again. It isn't without backlash though and when they see they can't take advantage, a very angry and accusing person appears lol

Gem.......i have noticed this as well. Personally, i've been in critical care nursing for ten years, and i have been on my own since the age of 16. i tend to agree that between the demanding and consistantly stressful aspects of my job, and a long life of HAVING to take care of myself, the psychological aspect of turning that control over to someone who loves, respects, and has nothing but your best interests at heart is a HUGE part of my submissive personality.

As for having targets painted on our backs by skilled abusers, i find that also to be true. As most of you have posted, most of my bondage and forced sex fantasies appeared long before my actual abuse. However, before i was aware of BDSM, i had no name for the way i felt. It did seem that the men that i attracted were all abusers in some form or another. And as has also been mentioned, it tended to make me much less submissive and with that tough girl *no one is ever going to hurt me again* attitude. Of course, this just tends to make me very lonely at times and hurts no one but myself, lol.

When i first stumbled into the world of BDSM, my first thought is "Wow! I'm home." Finally, there was a way to express myself AND other people out there that feel the same way that i do that i can talk to. Since then, i've learned a great deal about myself, and as gem also said, i can spot an abuser a mile away. i have also found out, that in a trusting, safe, and consensual relationship....i like being hurt just a lil' *grins*

As is the case in the world, people are just different. What *causes* someone to be submissive or Dominant??? Who knows. What is nice is that there are places where someone can find other people that have shared in their experiences, whatever they may be, and can offer advice or perhaps just a sympathetic ear in times of need.

Gem.....thanks for the link. And thanks to everyone else for their insight and opinions.

[gemmy]

As is the case in the world, people are just different. What *causes* someone to be submissive or Dominant??? Who knows. What is nice is that there are places where someone can find other people that have shared in their experiences, whatever they may be, and can offer advice or perhaps just a sympathetic ear in times of need.

Well said hun and I'm happy to hear you are taking the time to learn about yourself - truly it does go a long way in finding the One for you

[Sir_Russell]

Tom since it has been my personal experience too. I understand how stats can be made to work for any position you wish to state. But life my friend isn't stats it real people and real actions.

When most of the women you have been with in your Life admit to being assualted and not groping but as painful frightening act or acts done on and too them. Your stance is that we are what we are because we are, well I agree some with that statement.

Problem is that we are also a composite of our experiences. Now I am a very different rare form of Dominant so that may also alter the types of women that are drawn to me. I deal a lot with their mind helping them to see that they are very special worthwhile people, I spend as much time helping them find and understand their strength, self cofindence as I do anything.

The only way to know for sure would be to get honest answers from all the submissives out there and that is impossible. So I answer with my experience is yes most submissive have been abused either mentally or sexually.

[TomOfSweden]

Tom since it has been my personal experience too. I understand how stats can be made to work for any position you wish to state. But life my friend isn't stats it real people and real actions.

When most of the women you have been with in your Life admit to being assualted and not groping but as painful frightening act or acts done on and too them. Your stance is that we are what we are because we are, well I agree some with that statement.

Problem is that we are also a composite of our experiences. Now I am a very different rare form of Dominant so that may also alter the types of women that are drawn to me. I deal a lot with their mind helping them to see that they are very special worthwhile people, I spend as much time helping them find and understand their strength, self cofindence as I do anything.

The only way to know for sure would be to get honest answers from all the submissives out there and that is impossible. So I answer with my experience is yes most submissive have been abused either mentally or sexually.

I realize that I may can have come across quite a bit as rooting for Team Nature, (ie nature vs nurture). That wasn't my goal. I was reacting to how nature got lost completely in the formulation of the thread, and made as strong case as I could for nature.

Mastersgem formulated herself as if our sexual identity is based entirely on our childhood. I'd say that the fields of psychology and neurology has developed quite a lot beyond Freud today.

It's probably somewhere in between. Isn't it always? But I think it would be far too simple to only to look at childhood and see how that effected us later in life.

I do also acknowledge that I'm no psychologist or neurologist, so I'm not in a position of putting my foot down about anything. So I won't. But I can tell you my families background and supply my interpretation.

As a kid I was abused to the point where I found it necessary to run away from home, (at 16) to prevent anybody getting killed. Either me or my father. I would have run away earlier if I had anywhere to go. If abuse makes us submissive I should be submissive right?

My father was very dominant. My mother was very submissive. I later in life found out the my father had had a virtually identical relationship with his father which led to him, just as me, running away from home when he was 18. The only difference is that his father, (my grandfather) died quite soon after my fathers disappearance.

In my early relationships I was just as dominant and just as abusive as my father had been. So here we have it. Three generations with bad communication skills who without knowing anything about the generation before copied their behavior in detail. The correlations are uncanny.

But it could still be nurture. Abuse perpetuating itself. But the exact same behaviour could be used as evidence for nature. The instinct to dominate at any cost. I remember feeling extreme frustration when my early girlfriends didn't do what I told them to. For no reason other than some base animal instinct growling in the back of my head.

When I speak to my mother it doesn't take much to realize that she's naturally incredibly submissive. And it's not out of fear of my father. She's had a history of clinging to very domineering characters. Her mother, was also super submissive. Long after her extremely dominant husband died, (this is my grandfather on my mothers side) she was extremely happy when anybody came over so she'd have somebody to take care of. She'd do everything for me. She was also a radical militant feminist and communist in a extremely well off family. She was a powerful person with a powerful mind and will. She was quite an impressive person. But still super submissive.

I can go even further back in our family. It's a long list of extremely dominant men and extremely submissive women on both sides of the family. Sometimes abusive relationships, (like with my father) or not (as my mothers mothers).

Nature for me is by far the simplest explanation. If bee-brains can be programmed to perform and understand extremely complex dances that map out where nectar can be found far away, and navigating by the sun... Then our brains can surely contain even more detailed behavioral social pre-programming.

Why would our brains be so much more different than the animals we evolved from? Why would our brains make a massive leap in functionality, when nothing else in evolution does? The nurture crowd doesn't have a good answer. The days when we believed God created us with free will is gone. That simple explanation doesn't fly anymore.

Behaviorists/Nurture crowd have a lot bigger and complicated problems to solve than the nature crowd. They have to explain where all the primate instincts went! Where did all those activities we can observe in chimpanzees go? All those alpha-and beta-male behaviours. All those submissive chimpanzee female behavours? Did they all just evaporate through the process of evolution? Maybe? Maybe they did? But it's a very bold statement.

I also realize that it would be idiotic to assume that something like a rubber fetish or love of high heels could be genetic. This is a very complicated issue. Probably the most complex scientific issue today. How the brain works. I don't think we'll have an answer for another 50 years. I think it would be wrong to draw any definite conclusions where our kinks and sexual behaviours come from. It is still extremely premature.

At best I can say. "This is who I am, and I'm accepting me as I am now. Never mind why."

[gemmy]

...As a kid I was abused to the point where I found it necessary to run away from home, (at 16) to prevent anybody getting killed. Either me or my father. I would have run away earlier if I had anywhere to go. If abuse makes us submissive I should be submissive right?

My father was very dominant. My mother was very submissive. I later in life found out the my father had had a virtually identical relationship with his father which led to him, just as me, running away from home when he was 18. The only difference is that his father, (my grandfather) died quite soon after my fathers disappearance.

In my early relationships I was just as dominant and just as abusive as my father had been. So here we have it. Three generations with bad communication skills who without knowing anything about the generation before copied their behavior in detail. The correlations are uncanny...

and you relate none of your dominance to this then? patterned abuse leading and breading a cycle of the same?

just a question Tom, i'm not at all doubting your thoughts on this topic as you lent much for everyone to think and process - it just sort of jumped out at me when you said it happened to your father and his father before him

[TomOfSweden]

and you relate none of your dominance to this then? patterned abuse leading and breading a cycle of the same?

I'm not denying the possibility.

just a question Tom, i'm not at all doubting your thoughts on this topic as you lent much for everyone to think and process - it just sort of jumped out at me when you said it happened to your father and his father before him

I was 29 when I found these things out, and I was not prepared for it at all. It feels like I'm still not. It's too bizarre of a string of events.

[Isabella King]

Just a quick point...could you clarify what or who you are calling dumb, Slave Eswn? I'm beginning to feel the flexing of claws