Is BDSM a religion?

[Veronika]

I'm a person who thinks a lot. And since I've noticed that inside a BDSM community there is a lot of similar patterns, habits, general conduct, rules and sort of an own language too - could it resemble a religion sort of? Mistresses/masters who are in fact worshipped as goddesses/gods. And I find it strange to hear that many are feeling such powerful emotions and devotion almost like under a spell or trance of some kind.

Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?

[MasterBaron1945]

good morning

you are new here, and probibly new to the idea.
you are taking things out of context. if you are ever in the position withing a relationship that has this bond, you will know, you will understand.

This is not a religion!

[satisfied]

I don't feel that there is any kind of worship going on here. For me it is not worship or a God-like status that makes me adore my Dom. It is the way his power over me makes me feel. I worship only one God and my Sir is not that God. I am not under a spell or a trance. Yes, it is wonderful that he can make me forget myself sometimes and just completely surrender to him. But that also is a willing choice, not a spell. His control over me is a choice i've made and no one tried to talk me into it. Please do not try to make this sound like a cult. It is so far from it. The #1 rule that I have discovered is that there is no set rules or guidelines. A D/s relationship is different for each and every couple involved in one. What works for Sir and myself may not work for someone else and everyone is okay with that. I would suggest that you do much more exstensive research on the lifestyle. I personally find your thread offensive. But maybe that is just me.

[Veronika]

I personally find your thread offensive. But maybe that is just me.

Why would you find it offensive? You people are emphasizing it that we are all different and all should be respected. Why am I not allowed to ponder here. This is a discussion forum right? All views welcome?

[Soaul]

All views are welcome I suppose. You are allowed to ponder.

That doesn't mean one can't take offense to a post though. Offense is personal just like your views are.

BTW, I find it curious that you responded to this one comment rather than all the orthers.

[fetishdj]

Why would you find it offensive? You people are emphasizing it that we are all different and all should be respected. Why am I not allowed to ponder here. This is a discussion forum right? All views welcome?

I agree with this... if you find threads like this offensive then you should maybe consider not reading them.

As an aside... if you feel uncomfortable because your beliefs are challenged it may be because you need to reconsider those beliefs either to consolidate them (by reaffirming them) or to change them. It is the purpose of a debate like this to challenge any beliefs so that they can be assessed on an individual basis by all who read it. None here intend to offend and it is unfortunate that some will inevitably always get offended by such discussions. However, you cannot ask anyone (who has not deliberately gone out of their way to offend someone by saying something inflammatory) to apologise for simply stating thier own beliefs just because they disagree with yours.

Of course, anyone who does go out of their way to cause offense by posting inflammatory comments (like 'All Buddhists are idiots', for example) will be in violation of the T&Cs and will be expected to make reparations for their actions.

[fetishdj]

Why would you find it offensive? You people are emphasizing it that we are all different and all should be respected. Why am I not allowed to ponder here. This is a discussion forum right? All views welcome?

I agree with this... if you find threads like this offensive then you should maybe consider not reading them.

As an aside... if you feel uncomfortable because your beliefs are challenged it may be because you need to reconsider those beliefs either to consolidate them (by reaffirming them) or to change them. It is the purpose of a debate like this to challenge any beliefs so that they can be assessed on an individual basis by all who read it. None here intend to offend and it is unfortunate that some will inevitably always get offended by such discussions. However, you cannot ask anyone (who has not deliberately gone out of their way to offend someone by saying something inflammatory) to apologise for simply stating thier own beliefs just because they disagree with yours.

Of course, anyone who does go out of their way to cause offense by posting inflammatory comments (like 'All Buddhists are idiots', for example) will be in violation of the T&Cs and will be expected to make reparations for their actions.

[Veronika]

Fetishdj: You are making good points there. It's nice to discuss with people who are not threatened by different views. And thanks for all other replies as well. I am not a member of BDSM community but I do take various interest in life, people, their behaviour and beliefs.

[Soaul]

Religions have both mysticism (worship of a God or Gods or some entity) and a moral ethic (code of behavior).

BDSM certainly does have a code of ethics but so do Doctors, Barbers and the like. There is no "God" in BDSM or in Medicine, etc.

Therefore BDSM is not a religion.

By the way Taoism is a mysticism without a moral code and Confuciusism is a moral ethic without a God. Therefore the two are often combined. The major world's religions have both.

[Flaming_Redhead]

What you have noticed is true in any community where people share similar interests and beliefs, and I suppose one could accuse anybody of having a "religion," such as yuppies worshipping the almighty dollar. There are different kinds of "worship" in BDSM, i.e. cock worship, foot worship, etc. It's not done in the same context as worshipping as we know it in regards to religion. As much as I love my boyfriend's cock, I don't pray to it or believe that it has mystical powers no matter how much I enjoy sex with him. *lol* As to the emotions and devotion, I can honestly say that I've never loved a man the way I love V, but the only time I'm in anything resembling a trance is during play. I suspect it's caused by endorphins, much like a runner's high which enables one to finish a marathon.

[fetishdj]

BDSM is a lifestyle but not a religion. The reason I say this (as well as all the other excellent points made above) is because BDSM changes on a time scale a lot quicker than any religion. BDSM practise and ethics are always undergoing changes as we evaluate and revise what we do. Many religions get stuck into ruts of dogma which limit thier ability to change with the times.

Of course, this is not to say that we do not have dogma of our own and that there are many who are stuck in their ways. However, we are still more prepared to assess our beliefs and codes than some religions are and make significant changes to them.

[CookieMan]

I'm a person who thinks a lot. And since I've noticed that inside a BDSM community there is a lot of similar patterns, habits, general conduct, rules and sort of an own language too - could it resemble a religion sort of? Mistresses/masters who are in fact worshipped as goddesses/gods.

The worship that you hear of here isn't like that in a religion. Worship here refers to an act, not a belief that there is anything to be gained from it. Not eternal life, not sudden healing, not never-ending cookies(however my doll would get those if she just asked nicely enough).

And I find it strange to hear that many are feeling such powerful emotions and devotion almost like under a spell or trance of some kind.

A spell or a trance? Perhaps you are referring to Domspace or subspace. Why is it strange? Is it not similar to the way sports players talk about 'being in the zone' or when authors spew forth pages and chapters and entire books in a sitting because they're focused entirely upon what's before them? I have a feeling that you are misinformed, or have drawn your own conclusions after watching some show, reading some book, or having a close friend confide in you that their lifestyle is D/s and it bothered you. I do hope that we here can help clear the air, so to speak, and you can understand what it is you're obviously confused about.

Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?

Again, this ties in to what I said in the first part. I'm sorry you feel this way, but perhaps through opening your eyes and your mind, you can see that we're not Devil-worshipers, which you alluded to with your parting question.

Just my two cookie-scented cents.

[SubmissiveDoll]

re⋅li⋅gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

No BDSM is in no way a religion. It's a lifestyle... like people who like fishing, hunting, skiing, skateboarding. You can find a discussion board for anything! Why would this be a religion. I don't generally like to talk about my personal beliefs, but I'm Christian. No I don't 'worship' my Master in the same way I worship my God. Nor would he ever ask me to.

If we like we can get into the many facets of religion that agree with BDSM lifestyle as a practice. Ever read the old testamant? I have, you should check into that sometime. Or perhaps the Kabala? Or know anything about Shinto, or Hinduism or Judaism? Almost all government recognized religions speak for D/s relationships in marriage.

The powerful emotions you speak of, is a rush of endorphins and adrenaline. We have dubbed it sub and Dom space. For simplicity of talking about it.

I'm enamored with my Master, I love him with all my heart. He owns me, body and mind. But my soul belongs to God.

[Veronika]

I don't generally like to talk about my personal beliefs, but I'm Christian. No I don't 'worship' my Master in the same way I worship my God.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again for your sins?

I had an interesting article that I was supposed to post here about BDSM and its link to religion. But as a newbie I can't.

[SubmissiveDoll]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again for your sins?

I had an interesting article that I was supposed to post here about BDSM and its link to religion. But as a newbie I can't.

I'll answer this. I shouldn't but I will. Yes I believe in Jesus Christ, unless there is some new fangled Christianity that I'm unaware of. Your questions are disrespectful and demeaning. As well as ignorant.

I have to admit I'm curious about this article you were SUPPOSED to post here. Would that be the only reason you joined? Your happy to attack us here for being offended by your rude and offensive posts, but you can't take the same criticism that you are dealing out. Do I walk into your family and begin telling you how you are doing everything wrong? No, because how you live your life is between you and God.

Are you attempting to speak to me of my personal religion? If you would like please do. I'm happy to continue this. I'm not afraid of my religion or my lifestyle. I have peace and happiness in my life and it will take a lot more than your narrow views to ruin it for me.

Now, if you have question about BDSM please ask. Just try to do so in a way that isn't offensive to everyone here. Thanks!

[leah06]

Yipes. Clearly you've hit a nerve, Veronika. Anyway, I don't think it's a stupid question and I don't think it's offensive either. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the moderators encourage those who are offended by a post to, you know, navigate away from it. Given some of the things that are posted on here it's interesting that this one seems to be extra shocking.

Anyway, in answer to your question - no, I don't think bdsm is a religion, but I do see parallels between some aspects of bdsm and some aspects of some religions. Sorry, guys! If you don't like this, no one's making you read it.

First, I do think you've correctly identified that there can be a certain amount of religious fervor that people bring to some interactions - or, to be more precise, to their descriptions of those interactions and of their emotions. I've certainly felt this, and I've enjoyed it and I don't confuse it with blasphemy, but I recognize the parallels. Second, speaking only of my own religious tradition, it is clear to me that some of the ways we are encouraged or required to approach God are in many ways similar to certain bdsm rituals. Moreover, our relationship with God in some ways mirrors that of a sub to a Dom, or, as we like to say in my religion, to a master.

OK, but I'm reversing the causality - the religion doesn't mirror the bdsm, the bdsm MITRRORS THE RELIGION. Do I think this is intentional? Of course not. But bdsm arises from deeply felt needs, just as religion does, and it's not reasonable to think that bdsm would just invent its emotions and rituals with no reference whatever to other deeply felt experiences. And besides, IMHO, our relationship with God is the ultimate power exchange.

[SubmissiveDoll]

OK, but I'm reversing the causality - the religion doesn't mirror the bdsm, the bdsm MITRRORS THE RELIGION. Do I think this is intentional? Of course not. But bdsm arises from deeply felt needs, just as religion does, and it's not reasonable to think that bdsm would just invent its emotions and rituals with no reference whatever to other deeply felt experiences. And besides, IMHO, our relationship with God is the ultimate power exchange.

This is beautiful Rachel. Thanks.

[Veronika]

it is clear to me that some of the ways we are encouraged or required to approach God are in many ways similar to certain bdsm rituals.

I've studied this and ran into a document which was: The Slaves Prayer. That is as close to a religion as it can be in my mind. There are lines like this: "Grant me the power to give myself to Him completely", "Let me open myself up to completely belong to him", "Allow me the spirit to know his needs." This combined with kneeling, ritual positions, in some extreme cases cutting. Sounds pretty scary to me.

But what I understand this slave thing isn't that common is it? Are there more submissives than slaves?

[Veronika]

Your questions are disrespectful and demeaning. As well as ignorant.

Which questions exactly? I don't think any of my posts are.

Your happy to attack us here for being offended by your rude and offensive posts, but you can't take the same criticism that you are dealing out.

Attack? That's not true at all. Is it possible that my posts scared you in some way? It's not like I would've called anyone names or said you are doing something wrong I never said that.

[his_girl_l]

[QUOTE=Veronika;765481]Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again for your sins?

No, i don't. Nor do i see my Master in that light.

And nor do i come to these forums and expect to find evangelising christians judging my lifestyle choices, anymore than i would go to a forum devoted to religious faith and question peoples sexual and lifestyle choices.

There is a religion and philosophy thread here where you may have better luck finding the answers you seek.

By the way, i found the slaves prayer beautiful, even though i personally don't have a deity to direct it to.

[Aibo]

Religion. I hope not, and dont seriously think so.
Some in the BDSM community do act and live as they are part of a cult though.

[Veronika]

Some in the BDSM community do act and live as they are part of a cult though.

This is interesting, could you tell me more?

[Aibo]

This is interesting, could you tell me more?

Even though this thread borders on a flamewar already. I will reply.

So yes, I used the word cult, and we find quite a number of similarities.

Cults tend to have a uniform, on BDSM gatherings you find something called 'dresscode' - ok not the best example since you see quite some variety, yet there is something to it, since everthing you see there, is something you dont see on the streets. And so you have the closed society setting, another sign of a cult.

Rules of conduct. Only certain ways of behaviour are allowed, switches tends to have a hard time both in reality as well as on forums.
Also if you have one interest that is outside the norm. Animal roleplayers to mention one example are often attacked with deliberate misunderstandings even suggestions of copulating with animals by other BDSM interested individuals.

Even within one male dominant female submissive relationship you will find that the ceiling is quite low, even on a forum.
If a submissive is allowed to suggest things, then you can bet you soon will see posts telling that she 'is topping from the bottom' and that you are a crappy Master. The examples can be made manifold but I will move on to some other points.

Breaking the law, many of us in many countries do break the law with these activities. We need not look further than Great Britain to find examples of raids by the police and arrests.

This does not only account for the action of private couples at home. Some BDSM organisations do even have bylaws that go against the legislation of the society where they are found. Examples found in several countries, though I limit to only one BDSM organisation in Norway where they have some ideas I don't subscribe to, including on rape.

That we do this for one erotic purpose changes nothing, many cults do indeed have the same aim, it may be polyamory ...or things we might dont even want to contemplate here (well I spit it out, children yuck.)

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned.
Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

[Veronika]

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned. Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

True. Also might I add the attitude may be in some cases "us against the rest of the world" and isolation. For example if the master/mistress forbids sub/slave to contact certain people or media.

[sinderella]

Even though this thread borders on a flamewar already. I will reply.

So yes, I used the word cult, and we find quite a number of similarities.

Cults tend to have a uniform, on BDSM gatherings you find something called 'dresscode' - ok not the best example since you see quite some variety, yet there is something to it, since everthing you see there, is something you dont see on the streets. And so you have the closed society setting, another sign of a cult.

i'm not sure how being mindful of people's privacy is being a "closed society", and how you determine that is "a sign of a cult". not everyone is open about their true nature...while i am not ashamed of being a submissive, i don't go broadcasting it at the office, or at family gatherings. it is a cherished, private part of myself, not subject to other's ignorant assumptions and prejudices.

Rules of conduct. Only certain ways of behaviour are allowed, switches tends to have a hard time both in reality as well as on forums. Also if you have one interest that is outside the norm. Animal roleplayers to mention one example are often attacked with deliberate misunderstandings even suggestions of copulating with animals by other BDSM interested individuals.

Even within one male dominant female submissive relationship you will find that the ceiling is quite low, even on a forum.
If a submissive is allowed to suggest things, then you can bet you soon will see posts telling that she 'is topping from the bottom' and that you are a crappy Master. The examples can be made manifold but I will move on to some other points.

Breaking the law, many of us in many countries do break the law with these activities. We need not look further than Great Britain to find examples of raids by the police and arrests.

This does not only account for the action of private couples at home. Some BDSM organisations do even have bylaws that go against the legislation of the society where they are found. Examples found in several countries, though I limit to only one BDSM organisation in Norway where they have some ideas I don't subscribe to, including on rape.

That we do this for one erotic purpose changes nothing, many cults do indeed have the same aim, it may be polyamory ...or things we might dont even want to contemplate here (well I spit it out, children yuck.)

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned.
Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

individual opinions on message forums are just that - opinion and commentary. they do not make up the entire BDSM D/s etc. way of life. you of course know why protocols and rules are necessary, and they are by no means sinister or signs of a cult.

[Aibo]

i'm not sure how being mindful of people's privacy is being a "closed society", and how you determine that is "a sign of a cult". not everyone is open about their true nature...while i am not ashamed of being a submissive, i don't go broadcasting it at the office, or at family gatherings. it is a cherished, private part of myself, not subject to other's ignorant assumptions and prejudices.

Hello sindarella, it is with extreme hesitation I decided to reply to you directly.
First off, I did say similarities, you also read my post the same way as 'the Devil reads the Bible'.

How you deal with this have nothing to so with my post at all, I dont know you, and was not the subject here.

I do however know the ideas, situation and as already mentioned bylaws of a number of BDSM clubs and societies, and a few of them do indeed show warning signs both as for the rules and the behaviour of certain individuals.

individual opinions on message forums are just that - opinion and commentary. they do not make up the entire BDSM D/s etc. way of life. you of course know why protocols and rules are necessary, and they are by no means sinister or signs of a cult.

When rules and bylaws go against both the law and common sense, (the example on rape mentioned earlier) I be damned, but I do view it as a sign that something is wrong and want no part of it. So I do not subscribe to their newsletter, never have or will visit one of their BDSM parties and never will be a member until they change them, period.

[CookieMan]

Well shoot. I thought this was a board for folks in the BDSM lifestyle. Odd that what I've thought as a safe haven for where I could go to talk to discuss things without fear of recrimination or being judged...I suppose I'm wrong and just a subject for observation for the vanilla world.

[satisfied]

Originally Posted by Veronika
Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?[/QUOTE]
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Okay so maybe the word offensive was not exactly what i was trying to say. I suppose that what i meant was....Where exactly did you get the idea that we are worshipping anyone? This is a lifestyle choice we are all making and the way you phrased the above statements gives me the impression that you think we are a cult. I would imagine that there are millions of people who don't understand us that would feel the same way you do. So the real question is...Do you honestly believe we are worshipping some imaginary god, or are you just curious to find out if we think we are?

[Veronika]

Do you honestly believe we are worshipping some imaginary god, or are you just curious to find out if we think we are?

I think it's possible that BDSM is linked to yoga, tantra, buddhism, wicca or in some ways encourages to join them. But I can't be sure that's why I'm studying it.

[denuseri]

I'm a person who thinks a lot. And since I've noticed that inside a BDSM community there is a lot of similar patterns, habits, general conduct, rules and sort of an own language too - could it resemble a religion sort of? Mistresses/masters who are in fact worshipped as goddesses/gods. And I find it strange to hear that many are feeling such powerful emotions and devotion almost like under a spell or trance of some kind.

Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?

Alltough this thread would be better placed in the religion and philosophy section of the forums I will respond here.

It is easy to see how an outsider to the community might mis-construe some of the more formalized practices and lingua argot to be of a theological nature; however, if anything it is more of a philosophy for those of us that adhere to the more ritualistic and or symbolic elements of BDS&M.

The practice of bdsm is no more in conflict with our respected faiths than the sexual practices of the vanillia world are to thiers.

If anything it is less in conflict with many of the D/s aspects of patriarical based faiths as well as many eastrn theologies.

It is also easy for the mis-informed to make snap judgements based on incorrect assumptions.

If the feelings of devotion and love that a submissive and a Dominant feel for one another appear to be so overwhelming or in essence appear to be acts of mutual worship to casual outside observation, it is only becuase they are in so many ways more genuine than those of vanillia couples who still reside isolated within the confines of self made prisons filled with doubt and mutual loathing.

And in that regard I pity them.