Online relationships 101

[dav4jon]

As a lot of basic BDSM activities seem to be impossible in an online relationship -- namely all those, including sex, that involve some kind of physical contact or presence -- I would be interested to know what exactly an online relationship involves.

I have a very vague concept of subs being made to do things and provide proof of actual completion, but how do you take a picture of yourself being slutty in a shopping mall? How can you prove that you have not had a forbidden orgasm? Even webcams can't make anything 100% sure.

Another question is: are online relationships substitutes for (or first steps towards) RL relationships? Or do they constitute a special 'category' of BDSM relationships in its own right?

Thanks for any reply.

Cheers

[InnerTemptress]

interesting topic.

for me, online has been a safe way to discover my own lmitations and desires. with each online conversation or interaction i learn a bit more about what kind of submissive i am and what kind of Dominant i will need to teach and train me. it has been a means of discovering whether this is to be a phase or a lifestyle choice.

online has been invaluable and without it i don't think that i would be as far as i am today because i believe it would have taken me much longer to go into a local community environment unescorted.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

My wife and I met online over four years ago. We hung out mostly in chat doing a lot of get-to-know-you stuff and a little cyber sex here and there. Hehehe...

Basically, all we did were "scenes" where we would type out our actions in the room and our responses. Sort of like an online role-play. It was kind of high-schoolish, but it did let us get to know one another and each other's thoughts and fantasies a little better.

Eventually, though, we moved to r/l. Everyone should move to r/l eventually. It's really the only way to go if you TRULY want to have the BDSM experience.

Just be sure the person you're going to meet is who they say they are and that they're not going to kill you. My wife and I talked online for seven months before we met face to face. That is not an unrealistic amount of time, you newer people. Anyone that wants to "get to know you" and then meet in the same week is probably not going to be very health, satisfactory or knowlegdable. They might also be dangerous.

[ozgreg]

Very interesting Topic :-). Online Play involves a huge amount of trust as it is so easy it is to portray yourself as basically anything you want on the internet.

I believe online domination or playing has a role, although no amount of typing will ever replace your senses, online play is an excellent way to explore aspects of your own sensuality.

I do not know what it is about "being online" but experience has told me that people will reveal considerable more about themselves in chat than they will face to face.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
My wife and I met online over four years ago. We hung out mostly in chat doing a lot of get-to-know-you stuff and a little cyber sex here and there..

Don't forget that you also gave me some reading and writing assignments to do. I was given articles to read and then write what I felt about it as well as questionaires etc. A lot of the questionaires he would fill out as well to kind of give each other an idea of wether or not we were compatible and/or looking for the same things.

[jadrel]

Don't forget that you also gave me some reading and writing assignments to do. I was given articles to read and then write what I felt about it

Finding_Fantasy, pardon me for being presumptuous but would you be kind enough to expand further on this point?

I am very interesed in Online control, as I am unable to meet with my Mistress as often as either of us might like due to work/home commitments. Thus much of our play is carried out via email, text and phone conversations. We have been looking at ways to enhance the remote aspects of our relationship, particularly in terms of maintaining control, many times we resort to 'when we meet' as both a threat and a promise!

jad
(Hope that made sense!)

[Finding_Fantasy]

I am not sure if I can expand or not, jadrel but I will give it a go.

Basically what TG would do would send me a link to a site such as castle realm and tell me to read a specific article. Once that article was read I was then supposed to write a short essay about how I felt about that particular piece and why. I would have to include if it was something that I would like to try in r/l or if it was a theory I would agree with.

He also got me to write stories, usually BDSM related with things that I would like to try. We also talked about me writing a submissive's journal where I could express any thoughts or opinions I happened to have. I could then share it with hi, (so I had to keep any bad thoughts out of it... just kidding). Other than that, we just talked a lot, got to know each other so that when we did finally get together in r/l we would kind of know what each other wanted and expected.

However, if your online relationship ever goes to r/l, just remember that online relationships are completely different than r/l ones Hope that helps.

[jadrel]

Thanks for that FF, it's most helpful. I think I will pass on your experiences to Mistress and see if she thinks they might be of use in our exploration.

I do see my Mistress in r/l, but not very often. Once every 6 weeks or so for a night out (ususally with other friends), but there have only been about 6 complete nights in over a year. I knowhow different a r/l meeting is - oh boy do I couldn't sit down comfortably for a week after the first one!!

jad

[InnerTemptress]

i would be interested to know, if BDSM_Tourguide cared to share, what kind of questionnaires you sent to Finding_Fantasy.

maybe you could share a link or two

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Mostly, I made up my own, because I know what I have in my toy chest and what activities are within the realm of imagination for me. However, I can provide a link to one questionnaire that is pretty good and I can provide a link to a site that has a questionnaire, but you can't link directly to it, because the site is done in flash frames.

Castlerealm's BDSM Activity Checklist

A Dark Whisper

On the Dark Whisper Site, after you click Enter on the entry page, you will come to the main page. At the top are a bunch of category links you can click to select your area of interest. Click the General link, then on the left sidebar, scroll down until you see BDSM Partner Checklist. Click the link to view the questionnaire.

But by all means, encourage your dominant and yourself to come up with questionnaires and activities that are more personal to each of you than just these basic and very generalized ones.

Originally posted by InnerTemptress
i would be interested to know, if BDSM_Tourguide cared to share, what kind of questionnaires you sent to Finding_Fantasy.

maybe you could share a link or two

[wildhoney]

This is a very interesting topic, dav4jon,

There are some wonderful replies to your question. Like some of the others have written, online experience has been most valuable for me. It's given me an insight into this highly erotic world and it's helped me understand the needs i have, along with how i can go about experimenting and taking care of those needs.

i truly believe trust is very important in this kind of relationship, though. For without it, you are only going through the motions - you're not being true to the one who has accepted you and you're not being totally honest with yourself.

So much needs to happen in order for an online relationship to work. Once you find that middle ground, the possibilities are endless.

It's very nice to meet everyone. i'm enjoying myself so very much as i read all of the threads.

[xtreamgrace]

An online relationship is based on trust. You just do what you are told, and if a sub disobays and doesn't say anything their guilt proves as punishment. i do think there is a major flaw in the online thing, though.

-k

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by xtreamgrace
An online relationship is based on trust. You just do what you are told, and if a sub disobays and doesn't say anything their guilt proves as punishment. i do think there is a major flaw in the online thing, though.

-k

I think the only 'effective' online punishment, that can serve as punishment is the 'silent' treatment. Having a person ignore you, while your in the same chatroom or on msn or something like that, can be frustrating. If the two people are also communicating by phone as well, using voicemail to screen calls can emphasise the punishment. (This even sounds weird to me, but it just came to my mind)..and the funnier thing? These types of online punishments occur in non bdsm relationships as well.

A female acquaintence of mine, as an example, not in a bdsm relationship (although I don't see the difference, as mind games also contain elements of D/S etc) interrupted me how many times today by dropping by my house to check whether her 'ex' was online on goddamn Paltalk.. so I had to download it..only for her to find that he wasn't online. Now for a period of six months their relationship has the green light..then he gives it the red light..he says he might be interested in other people, she meanwhile agonizes over this to the point where she is torturing herself because in the meantime he is ignoring her online, via email and via telephone. Because I like to observe these 'dynamics' around me, I question her whether she must like it or get a subtle pleasure out of it.. however she shies away from the question. These are two people in a 'vanilla' relationship. Then out of the blue he'll call her, then she is on a high..then he'll go cold for a couple of days only to resume..reminds me of psychological experiments carried out on rats - press the lever you get food..or pavlovian conditioning..there is effectively no power exchange because it's all on his terms..however at the same time there is immaturity involved on both their behalves..

With the strictly online thing my philosophy is the following - for those relationships that are mainly carried out online , amongst people that are 'immature' or unevolved concerning their 'needs' or little respect to others -

As easy as it is for you to meet someone online, it's just as easy for them to meet someone online
Harsh maybe, but true in some situations..trust is relative in online relationships, and can only evolve 'effectively' once the relationship moves away from being online to being 'real life'.

but in regard to punishment 'online'.. just as silence is effective in real everyday life, it's perhaps more effective in online relationships.. perhaps even more so in 'full' online relationships.

[Dari]

it seems like there's a tendency to the negative side regarding online relationships. I can only say that it just depends on what you seek.

if you want a r/l relationship and am just interested to find someone fro that, you can surely do that online, but I don't know how successful that might be. haven't tried it. for me online means online only, for now and ever (but one of my best friends accidently found her boyfriend online, so hey, there's always a possibility to get it to work).

I guess a online-only relationship just works on trust, and trust alone. I'm a weirdo as far as things go there, because I have an aversion against webcams, mics, and even pictures. for me these are my boundries, I won't step over them because I consider an online-rlationship as something that works primarly in your mind, so why need these other things? but I understand many people not understanding me, or even telling me that I won't take it too seriously - they might be right, the moment I find it ridiculous I'd quit, but as long as I'm determined to stick to it I will, and I still consider myself being the only one to justify myself to. [now don't I sound like a horrible online-sub? ]

so, to spell this out clearly, let's come back to that trust thing. I'm rather trustworthy and I'm talkative, so I'm quick to believe if someone tells me something and I'll provide what knowledge they would want to have of me. I also follow the instructions I get, but I won't ever lie or omit something just to avoid punishment, or not follow the lines of that punishment only because it's inconvenient. If something disturbs me I'd rather say so to find a way to work around that. that means trust to me.

Cleo671 said something else I agree with, it's the issue of the silent treatment and the mind games. I guess there's not one single relationship, even if it's as vanilla as it gets, that doesn't have a little of that in itself, whether you want it or not. for me that's the worst anyone could possible inflict on me because I go basically insane within hours if ignored, and I tent to have a too vivid imagination concerning that (it's a major character flaw I'm working on). I wouldn't consider ignoring your sub as efficient, because that just depends on said sub - if he/she is like me it's just cruel and might even backfire, if he/she doesn't mind it it's useless. so once again it's important to talk about this. trust and talk, that's the foundation of anything, online or r/l.

[Pandora's Box]

In regards to the silent treatment as punishment, I completely 100% absolutely positively whole-heartedly disagree.

I can't think of a more irresponsible and disrespectful thing to do.

I am currently involved in an o/l relationship that we both hope to move to real time. If he ever tried to use the silent treatment as punishment, I'd show him the door.

That isn't a dominant in my opinion. It's someone that doesn't have the imagination or personal resources to handle a situation which truly requires them to rise to the occasion. In other words, immature.

The only time I think silence is appropriate is when they are so angry that they need to take a "time out" to collect themselves. And that should only be done in extreme situations where the submissive knows what's going on.

I may be alone in this, but I honestly was so offended by the thought of being given the "silent treatment" as punishment that I had to bring back a topic that had died a year ago.

I don't believe in it for vanilla and most certainly not for bdsm. It is a cruel form of manipulation. "If you don't obey, then I won't let you be around me". You can't withdraw your love just because someone angers you.

Whatever happened to discussion, compromise and communication?

[Ladywynn]

I don't believe in it for vanilla and most certainly not for bdsm. It is a cruel form of manipulation. "If you don't obey, then I won't let you be around me". You can't withdraw your love just because someone angers you.

Whatever happened to discussion, compromise and communication?

I absolutely agree, it is manipulative and it can be seriously damaging to the trust that is built up as well. I cannot see there being a serious enough problem to warrant the silent treatment with your sub online.

As for the rest of the questions, if your sub is honestly seeking exploration of themselves and their sexuality, I don't think that disobeying requests or orders should be in question. If you've established likes, dislikes, and limits, they will likely be glad to participate.

I think if you have gotten to the point where you distrust that your partner is actually following through, then there are deeper issues that need to be addressed, such as communication.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I absolutely agree, it is manipulative and it can be seriously damaging to the trust that is built up as well. I cannot see there being a serious enough problem to warrant the silent treatment with your sub online.

I can. If your submissive is a brat and uses brattiness to get attention, then denying her that attention is probably going to be the most effective way to deal with that behavior.

Of course, the other way to deal with it is to not take on a brat as a submissive partner.

[e.b.]

I can. If your submissive is a brat and uses brattiness to get attention, then denying her that attention is probably going to be the most effective way to deal with that behavior.

Even when dealing with bratty behavior, communication is still necessary. While I agree that brattiness is a manipulative way to seek attention, I also think that silence without any explanation is manipulative. I don't really think that creates a healthy situation; it simply perpetuates a cycle of rudeness on the parts of both the dom and the sub. The sub acts bratty instead of addressing her needs in a more mature fashion and the dom holds his silence over her head instead of discussing his displeasure.

Of course if a dom has already corrected a sub for bratty behavior and discussed consequences such as "quiet time" if the behavior continues, then I do think it's a fair method of punishment. The sub was warned and behaved poorly anyway. Withdrawing attention without explanation or discussion first seems a bit harsh though. After all, we all make judgment errors and it's hard to improve one's behavior if you're unaware or unsure of the offense.

[Tang]

I agree that online contact can be very exciting. Some have said that you cannot know whether the other person is faking it unless you have met them IRL. However, I think online is a realm of fantasy anyway. Whilst I lack the technical facilities to engage in play in places like Erotic Labs or Shangrila, I know people who have had great fun using them. I think some of the issues depend on the nature of online relationships.

If you are sending orders to a sub who is a real person who will act on those commands in reality then you have to take as much care as if you were doing that f-2-f. There are hazards with follow-up commands being lost or forgotten about, I left my online sub dressed in a particular way all night because I forgot to send the follow-up email and that was a strong and never forgotten lesson to me. My approach now is to send complete 'packages', with all the activities from beginning to end in one package, so you know that the sub will end up restored to 'normality' by the end of it. This kind of online relationship needs the trust of a f-2-f one and has to be handled as carefully, in such an environment I believe safe words are as important as IRL and things should only progress when each side has emailed the turn on word and things stop immediately whenever either side has sent the switch off word. It is also handy to have an off topic word which does not end play but allows discussion of what is happening outside the play.

There is a different kind of online relationship if it is total fantasy at each end. You can be representing yourself as any gender or any species in any setting or time period and effectively together you are writing a kind of novel. This should be safer because there is no way my catman self can fall from that castle wall I have just vaulted in order to scale up to the chamber where the innocent princess waits to be abducted and ravaged and transformed into my catwoman lover. However, the online exchange can be very arousing and exciting and it does not really matter who is actually on each end or how they are dressed, etc. as long as long as they are imaginative and can write well. The only potential for harm is if the players move from just writing to trying to act out what is being described.

There can be total fantasy rooted in a less fantastical setting and with behavior which is more like what might happen in reality, for example I am picking up a slutty prostitute and taking her back to have fun with in a cheap motel room, but in this style of online contact it is unlikely that either party is going to act any of that out though there may be a greater risk, thus a need for greater care, than with more fantastical set activities which it would be impossible for them to do.

[tehya]

As a lot of basic BDSM activities seem to be impossible in an online relationship -- namely all those, including sex, that involve some kind of physical contact or presence -- I would be interested to know what exactly an online relationship involves.

I have a very vague concept of subs being made to do things and provide proof of actual completion, but how do you take a picture of yourself being slutty in a shopping mall? How can you prove that you have not had a forbidden orgasm? Even webcams can't make anything 100% sure.

Another question is: are online relationships substitutes for (or first steps towards) RL relationships? Or do they constitute a special 'category' of BDSM relationships in its own right?

Thanks for any reply.

Cheers

Oh how near and dear this topic is to me! My Master and I have been in a mostly online relationship for over a year now, and from the very beginning the most important aspect was trust and reality. He has told me over and over again how he believes I do every task put to me. Without a single doubt! As I have no doubt about his sincerity. When I have failed at a task or fogotten to do it, I have told him, and accepted my punishment.

Secondly, we have done everything possible to make our relationship as realistic as possible. We don't just cyber back and forth our fantasies.. we find ways in which to perform them, and all aspects of us.

We also spend numerous hours talking about our relationship, what works and what doesn't. Where we want to take it, and what the future may hold for us. We get into each others head, trying to really understand the others needs and desires... Also our relationship grows outside of the D/s and BDSM... We have found that we enjoy writing together, and have begun the process of getting his/our works published (even have a few chapters here in the library). He writes, I edit, reseach publishers and submit them. On top of that, as if that doesn't keep us busy enough, we have ventured into selling homemade floggers, and creating other toys or gift ideas... Depending on what type of relationship you are looking for, there is nothing that can't be worked out!

When we first started out all we had was MSN and chat rooms... then came the phone, and finally a webcam... But always it was our imaginations and what was actually possible to be acted out... A list of things we have managed to do.... breast bondage, clothes pins, whipping myself with homemade floggers (a gift I made for him), spankings with flexible rulers, wood spoon smacking, wax play, etc. I have daily or nightly tasks I must do, and he again trusts that they are completed as directed.

Now, this is not to say that there aren't many people out there that play at BDSM and D/s relationships... there are more than I can count. But, I can't imagine my life anyother way now! The experience and personal growth both of us have undergone are marvels. We grow closer every day, and find new and exciting things to try all the time.

Life is whatever we wish to make of it. Be honest in your needs and desires and go from there.

Someone one said something like this..."We are only limited by our imaginations"

[smartass kitten]

O/l can be wonderful, but I find that it takes an enormous amount of trust on both sides. Sometimes it's misplaced as well.

You establish rules, get to know eachother, and for me it's no question that I wollow the rules, and tell my partner if I mess up in any way. (of course, I'm never ever a brat or smartass, noooo, that would be the easy way to get into trouble).

When my o/l relationship blew up, I found myself thinking that this type of thing could never work online, because you can't look eachother in the eyes, and it's such an easy medium to create a persona.

Now I've spent some time reading threads, and I see many are involved in an o/l relationship. So I was compelled to try again, and I am.
While I want to submit, I find it hard to do so, and now I'm not even sure if I can anymore.
Nothing seems tangible, if that's the correct english I'm using.

How do you do it?

This thread seemed like the right place for this pointles ramble. Didn't feel like it warranted it's own thread

[e.b.]

O/l can be wonderful, but I find that it takes an enormous amount of trust on both sides. ...

So I was compelled to try again, and I am.
While I want to submit, I find it hard to do so, and now I'm not even sure if I can anymore.
Nothing seems tangible, if that's the correct english I'm using.

How do you do it?

This thread seemed like the right place for this pointles ramble. Didn't feel like it warranted it's own thread

Wolverine,

Your post is far from "pointless". You're completely justified to feel the way you do right now. Regardless of online or off, D/s or vanilla, it's hard to allow yourself to be vulnerable and trust a new partner so soon after being hurt. Since trust is such an essential part of being able to submit, it makes sense that doing so right now is difficult for you. My Master and I have had our ups and downs lately and I'm finding myself feeling the same way (wanting to submit but not being sure I even can anymore). Sorry I can't offer more helpful suggestions but please know you're not alone in feeling the way you do. All I've found so far is that it takes lots of discussion, time, patience, and compassion from both partners to work through the issues that make trust difficult. As they resolve, hopefully the trust and submission will feel more natural and less forced again. Take care and good luck,

eb

[smartass kitten]

Thank you e.b.

It's just that I don't feel it would be right to ask a Dom(me) to try and work past the mess someone else left behind (ie me).

@*(^#$*@&$^(
Sorry.

[Pandora's Box]

Wolverine, you're both right and wrong.

Everyone has baggage. In one way or another. It's just part of life.

You will need to do your part to heal yourself. No one else can do that for your. However, when you have taken yourself as far as you can go and you feel ready again... that is when the other person can help you grow and learn even more.

At least those are my brief, and admittedly sleepy, thoughts on the subject.

Good luck.

[e.b.]

Thank you e.b.

It's just that I don't feel it would be right to ask a Dom(me) to try and work past the mess someone else left behind (ie me).

@*(^#$*@&$^(
Sorry.

Wolverine,

Pandora already addressed some of your concerns quite well. She's right that you are the only one that can really do the work of processing and moving through a bad experience. However, no one should have to do it all by themselves either. I don't know how you feel about professional therapy but it might be helpful for you, especially considering that you don't feel comfortable asking a significant other to work on it with you at this point. Besides, it's probably healthier to have a professional help as they are trained to do so and can be more objective.

Also, you are not a "mess", you're a person who deserves to be happy just like any of the rest of us. Once you get to a point where you feel more whole, then it's reasonable to expect your Dom(me) or partner to help too. That's what friends do. Granted, it's not their place to solve it for you, but they can offer support and someone to talk to as you work through things.

You're obviously already starting to work towards healing by posting here. You just have to try to stay confident and committed to growing from your past instead of letting it drown your spirit. Oh, and don't worry about your English, it's excellent...far better than I could do with my non-primary language.

eb

[Krimson3]

[QUOTE=smartass kitten]Thank you e.b.

It's just that I don't feel it would be right to ask a Dom(me) to try and work past the mess someone else left behind (ie me).

[QUOTE]
Actually that is not true if the Dom/Master is experienced in r/t and has a good understanding of psychology and behavior modification. It does take time to overcome past damage of abuse, but that abuse can be turned into a strength.

Don't underestimate yourself as a person.

[BeautifulOblivion]

I think it's awesome that you brought this back, nikita. Love can blossom over the net, my fiance and I are proof of that. We met online six years ago and I'm never happier than when I get to spend time with him. We've touched only briefly on the surface of BDSM, so I can't really relate on the subject of meeting an online Dom/sub, because we're learning together in the real world when I get to see him. We've also experimented a bit with orgasm control/tasks, but so far, we haven't been on the same wavelength quite and we need to learn a bit more about one another sexually before continuing anything like that. (We already know a lot, but there is much more to learn)

I wish the best of luck to those Doms and subs who meet their partners online. =) Love can blossom from an online relationship... I know I'm not the only proof of it. =)

[Nikita]

We've touched only briefly on the surface of BDSM, so I can't really relate on the subject of meeting an online Dom/sub, because we're learning together in the real world when I get to see him. We've also experimented a bit with orgasm control/tasks, but so far, we haven't been on the same wavelength quite and we need to learn a bit more about one another sexually before continuing anything like that. (We already know a lot, but there is much more to learn)

You are welcome beauty:

I forgot to post threads that are related to this one. Perhaps there will be a few things there to help y'all learn more about each other.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3653

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3512

[kashtwa]

I met my girlfriend and Mistress at a club and i was not submissive at in the beginning nor thought i was.. It was something she made me realised that i was born to serve her. She wanted me to get along with others online and when she was not at home she emailed me my duties.

[Silke]

Weird...I can't open your attachment to see whether I can approve it, kashtwa. I'll try and find out what's up with that...sorry for the delay. If you know what it is and can change the attachment, please do so and let me know.