Deleting Threads (and Posts)

[S_Couture]

Again, why do you feel the need to delete based on 'thread drift'? Almost all threads drift. Alt.sex.stories.d was set up to discuss sex stories and writing. It has turned out to be anything but. For all intents and purposes, it is where authors hangout and shoot the shit about everything but sex stories.

What neither of you seems to understand is that this is a community. The extra stuff that TG is doing is great, but his foremost job is removing posts that are in violation of the law, so as to further to continued use of this community by its members. And secondly, to keep the majority of its members happy and spawn increased contribution by its members.

I think you have done a terrific job meeting the first of your criteria. However, I think have have not done a very good job with the second. You have behaved, not as mediators, but as dictators. I do not argue that you had good intentions. But the most popular thread here was deleted. A veritable flame war has broken out. And people aren't posting.

All of this has been spawned due to the spurious deletion and movement of posts by the moderators. And instead of owning up to it, in face of practically unanimous objection, you have continued a pursuit which has turned into the very thing you are here to prevent.

[GaryWilcox]

Originally posted by S_Couture
Again, why do you feel the need to delete based on 'thread drift'? Almost all threads drift. Alt.sex.stories.d was set up to discuss sex stories and writing. It has turned out to be anything but. For all intents and purposes, it is where authors hangout and shoot the shit about everything but sex stories.

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
When I delete a single posting, it is because the content of the posting is 1) off topic and 2) meant to antagonize.

Topic Drift alone isn't the reason. As you see by this comment earlier in the thread, I specifically pointed out two important elements.

I agree-- leniency and patient judgement is needed. Letting someone talk about favorite foods in a thread about guilt over enjoying BDSM in the age of Elizabeth Smart is the kind of harmless topic drift the community wants.

Someone arguing that the Moderators are out of control in a topic called "Deleting Threads (and Posts)" is something the community also wants.

Someone going off topic to launch an attack on another forum member is something the community doesn't want.

Originally posted by S_Couture
What neither of you seems to understand is that this is a community. The extra stuff that TG is doing is great, but his foremost job is removing posts that are in violation of the law, so as to further to continued use of this community by its members. And secondly, to keep the majority of its members happy and spawn increased contribution by its members.

I think you have done a terrific job meeting the first of your criteria. However, I think have have not done a very good job with the second. You have behaved, not as mediators, but as dictators. I do not argue that you had good intentions. But the most popular thread here was deleted. A veritable flame war has broken out. And people aren't posting.

A mediator is a peacemaker, someone who goes between warring parties to try ro remove hostility. That's generally my nature, but not what I'm on trial in this thread for.

Dictator: NOUN: 1a. An absolute ruler. b. A tyrant; a despot.

Come now... isn't this just veiled name calling? Am I really that bad, or are you just assuming a bunch of things about me and my behavior that you have never run afoul of?

I want you to enjoy yourself here as my peer. I also want to keep the place tidy and ugly shouting-match free, if I can. Can you offer a recommendation to prevent that? What would you have done, in my shoes? Wait until the fire breaks out and cancel the forum memberships of those who participated?

Have you ever applied for this job? Ever volunteered your services to moderate the forum?

I can so easily understand the anger about seeing threads you love deleted. And I understand trepidation at discovering we do 'prune' threads where flaming, pointless topic-drift occurs. I can even understand why you might hold a bit of a grudge at me for deleting "Favorite Pictures", despite my good intentions.

I am baffled about how I grew to be the enemy... a dictator... in your eyes. Why can't you see my side? Why aren't you trying to walk a mile in my shoes?

I am now past any further apologies about Favorite Pictures. I goofed, I admitted it, I promised to be more careful.

The only person who has any business asking me for an apology for the removal of post is the party whose post I have removed. That's not you. I think you're worried that I will someday. I wish I could relieve your doubts... I don't think I can, actually.

Originally posted by S_Couture
All of this has been spawned due to the spurious deletion and movement of posts by the moderators. And instead of owning up to it, in face of practically unanimous objection, you have continued a pursuit which has turned into the very thing you are here to prevent.

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
One of the most popular threads in this forum-- Favorite Pictures-- might be gone forever. But it's not TourGuide who's responsible, it's... :: sigh :: little ol' me.

I slipped, and deleted Favorite Pictures. Managed to save Kostly's initial post and about 12% of the pictures, but that's not a lot.

I promise to be careful around all of those threads, and we might see the Favorite Pictures thread return in a few days. Waiting to hear if Jinn can do anything.

I have owned up to making a mistake since the beginning of this thread, and tried to make amends. I'm not sure what you meant here. But I think you're presuming an awful lot, with the words, practically unanimous objection.

I am exhausted and tired of defending where I don't think I'm wrong and conceding where I have made mistakes.

I have yet to see anyone offer me one alternative option to deleeting the flames other than leave them in and ignore the Code of Conduct.

[S_Couture]

At one time I was moderating five large forums at one time. I know that it is hard work. I'm not beating you up over past mistakes.

All I am saying is that the practice of going out of your way to find old posts to move or delete has caused this whole mess. When I was a mod, I did something similar to this one girl I considered a spammer. I ended up going back into the history and deleting her out of existence. I thought I was doing a good thing, but the forum members reacted in a similar manner to the members here.

Something else I found helpful was to have two aliases. A mod alias and a moderator alias. That way your mod stuff doesn't follow you to your other forum participation and enjoyment.

[Tree]

What's with the censorship, people? A good example - there was a thread started by someone called whoreman (apparently whipit in a previous existence) on something that interests me - overweight BDSM women. The moderators ranted, in the thread, at this person (male, I guess) for even daring to call someone fat ( oh please, dear moderators, how PC can you get? It's like CNN!) and then deleted his replies! Some of us would have liked to know more about this person's point of view - it was an interesting topic. I would have thought that this forum, of all forums, would have been open minded and TOLERANT enough to allow all people's points of view posted.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

If we were to censor the site, we would decide which posts would go through and which ones don't. That's the difference between censoring and deleting a dead thread that no one's read for six months, but thousands of people have had the chance to look at.

However, since you seemed to have missed it in your perusal of these forums, please have a look at post number one in the Forums Updates thread.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Originally posted by Tree
I would have thought that this forum, of all forums, would have been open minded and TOLERANT enough to allow all people's points of view posted.

There is an emormous difference between voicing one's opinion and posting just for the sake of attacking people. The person in question insulted the women in the Personal Photograhy section calling them fat and ugly. He was attacking the memebers of this site. Did he compliment them on being brave for posting their pictures in a public forum for all to see? Did he stop to think of how his comment would affect those he was refering to? Well yes I am sure he did stop to think because he wanted to hurt these people's feelings and self esteem. THAT is why he was banned and his posts erased. Had he brought his comments forth in a respectful manner, he never would have been deleted.

There are rules here and there are consequences if they aren't followed. Please Read The Code of Conduct Manwhore/Whipit broke the CoC on many occasions and there are precious few sad to see him or his posts go.

[~d~]

I was and still am one of the most vocal people in regards to the idea of threads and posts being deleted…

Since the beginning of this thread there have been changes made to this site….bending and compromising…and this is how I see the way it has turned out…and yes I know my opinion probably doesn’t mean a lot but here it goes…because now I know it will be respected

The code of conduct has been updated… the ambiguities erased… it is a code that is no longer a list of suggestions but a set of solid rules… and in it now, there are rule that say not only what is expected of us… but also rules on what we can expect from the Administrator and the Moderators of this site… There are now solidly stated rules in Forum update about what can and can’t be deleted….what will and will not be tolerated….

For me it boils down to this…

Debate… debate… and debate… agree with each other.. or don’t…but your opinion will be respected…. Your opinion will be one of the building blocks of this forum…One post or a million… all will be treated with equal respect…but to get that respect there is one very simple rule that you must follow… show respect to those around you….

We all have the right, no not the right, but the obligation to expect respect from those around us…we have the right to show our souls and KNOW that no one will plunge a knife into it…and if they try they will be told NO...we will not accept that from you...that that behavior will not be tolerated…we have the right to demand the best of those around us… of lifting the bar and saying.. love me… hate me.. your choice… but you will respect me….and your name or title doesn’t matter…

That is at the very core of everything this lifestyle stands for….

Someone accused me of being reactionary about my opinion.. and I never denied it…of me saying “there is your power… where’s mine?” and I was… I’m a subbie... its in the job description….I was fighting for a contract that said.. here are the rules we must ALL live by… here is what I expect of you.. and in return here is what you can expect of me…and in my opinion we have been give that…its up to us now to live by it.. we all have that simple choice now…

Peace….
~d~

[Curtis]

Not to flog a dead horse, but Faibhar started a similar thread about how disappointed he was by his first few attempts to meet BDSM groups at 'munches', this disappointment being largely due to how little the other participants cared about maintaining their appearance. That thread drew many responses, some well-considered and some intemperate, but Faibhar's (and my, and the other more angry responses) were not deleted BECAUSE the intent of the postings was much different (I hesitate to say 'purer') than Manwhore's intent.

Faibhar is a guy with a gripe and a position, which he defended pretty well; Manwhore/whipit is a vandal who gets his kicks by making people react to him. It makes him feel powerful.

Ferreting out other posters' intent is one of the least desirable parts of the job of being a moderator. With Manwhore, there was (at one time) a large body of evidence, thoughtfully provided by the 'man' himself, to show cause for his banishment. I would've been a lot quicker on the trigger than BDSM_Tourguide was.

In other words, from the point of view of this longer-term member of the boards, Manwhore's deletion was an example of excessive tolerance, rather than a lack of tolerance.

Geez, Tourguide. You can't hardly win!

[Moggy]

.

Curtis: I would've been a lot quicker on the trigger than BDSM_Tourguide was.

Me too! Recognise a post for what it is, and delete it immediately if it serves no purpose other than aggravation or offense.

If I want nastiness, I'll find a good story on the site. I don't want it in the forums

and to ~d~: loved your post. I'm sure many would echo your words.

[AndrewBlack]

Here here.

I agree wholeheartedly with d

Having previously attended a forum where that was seriously diverted, almost ruined, by one callous individual I think it is quite reasonable to get shot of them once their motivation has been determined. You can debate and diffuse insults all you like but it's hardly fun and it's really not very stimulating or fulfilling. Implicit in a forum such as this is the right to individual respect, more so than other forums because of the very personal nature of the discussion. I agree with Curtis that a low threshold for intolerance of abusers is justified.

[GaryWilcox]

Since the beginning of this thread there have been changes made to this site….bending and compromising…and this is how I see the way it has turned out…

The rules weren't changed all that much. We just clarified some things. Talked about our needs. Responded to member concerns. And that's SOP, too. Jinn made me a SuperModerator so that TG and I could police each other equally. We brought in some new Moderators to help us out. We clarified how to handle concerns with the SuperModerators, to try and motivate people to resolve their conflicts with us through Jinn rather than having to 'read about it in the newspapers', so to speak.

What's not mentioned is that we nailed down specific protocols about dealing with CoC Violations. And that we did it in the chatroom, right in front of present members. We accepted input and on a few occasions asked for input, and got some great assistance. To those few present, thank you for your assistance.

In trying to do this job, I've found ways to handle different crises better for the community. I've evolved a bit. Will the new resolutions pass muster with everyone? Hell, no. For my part, our continual process to improve things and protect this community has been a nasty, drag out fight, with occasional thank you's from those I try to help. And the occasional opportunity for me to be my silly, trivial self in between putting out fires.

I've been called a 'tyrant' in this thread. Attacked not for what I did, because attacking me is a way to carry on a previous grudge with BDSM TourGuide. Accused of wielding godlike powers irresponsibly. Subtly accused of censorship... and generally, not having the forum's best interests at heart.

At this time I would like to point out that many of you never apologized for treating myself and TG with less respect and dignity than you demand from us, and profess to have for each other.

But, on the other hand, one or two of you actually thanked us. And some of you evolved a bit, too, in your understanding of what my intentions are and who I am, and lightened up on TG as well, putting aside some old grudges... I hope we are moving on and working together.

Those of you who tried to understand our position (particularly in the chatroom) and offered suggestions and constructive criticism of our work (Lord Douche, LordTaylor, and a pre-Mod redEva come to mind), pat yourselves on the back that you accomplished change by talking to us and openly expressing concerns as our peers and friends.

[Lord Douche]

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
Those of you who tried to understand our position (particularly in the chatroom) and offered suggestions and constructive criticism of our work (Lord Douche, LordTaylor, and a pre-Mod redEva come to mind), pat yourselves on the back that you accomplished change by talking to us and openly expressing concerns as our peers and friends.

*is honoured to get a mention*

Good work on the CoC, by the way. I assume you've worked out how to... um... ban people?

*listens for the indrawn breaths*

[GaryWilcox]

Originally posted by Lord Douche
*is honoured to get a mention*

Good work on the CoC, by the way. I assume you've worked out how to... um... ban people?

*listens for the indrawn breaths*

LOL Troublemakin' varmint!

For the most part, I rarely OP myself as I enter chat. But, yes, I do know how to ban people from chat, and from the forum as well. I think that was what I was confused on-- how to ban varmints from the forum-- and in the process of showing TG something else, I happened across the screen.

Again, not a light-hearted responsibility (or something to casually joke about). But if it's gotta be done, I can accomodate.