Mouthy sub

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Jazzie-sub
Too funny. However, it just might be that she'd care for them very much. Is it not true that bratty subs are bratty to goad their Dom?

It is true that many submissives are bratty to goad their dominants. However, most of the bratty subs are internet-only submissives and not real-life creations. Why? Because getting your ass beat in real life hurts a hell of a lot more than it doies on a computer screen.

However, what I was referring to was my specific methodologies for dealing with a submissive that likes to run her mouth a little too much. I like to do things to work or otherwise occupy their mouths so they can't run it as much. For instance, using it as a clothespin holder.

Also, in the case of brattiness, I prefer approaches that do not cater to what the submissive wants, which is attention and a spanking. Instead I give them the opposite. Typically, my therapy for brattiness involves the submissive spending some time alone and hogtied in a closet... or in a bath tub full of cold water. Something like that. Something to get the idea aross that that particular sort of thing won't cut it around here.

[Jazzie-sub]

:coughs: Mmm. Well, thank you for your most serious reply to the slight bit of humor I found while reading Your response to 'brat girl'...

Actually I anticipated rightly it seems that You'd not be handling the matter as the brat girl would/may have liked. I could tell that immediately from Your 'tone'.

Thanks for the visual. I'll keep it as a reminder that with a real Dom, such tactics would not work. I already figured that, I just now have this, as I said, interesting 'visual' provided by Your detailed response.

~jazzie aka lovelorn (read Your online guide)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Jazzie-sub
:coughs: Mmm. Well, thank you for your most serious reply to the slight bit of humor I found while reading Your response to 'brat girl'...

~jazzie aka lovelorn (read Your online guide)

Everyone always thinks I'm so serious. Jeez...

I'm glad to know you're readin. I'll be posting up something on the knot tying section pretty soon. I've just had some projects around the house keeping me from working on my Dungeon stuff lately.

[rob.wilson]

Maybe it's just me, but having a bratty sub is kinda fun. Lots of different ways to torture...err correct her.

Oh the dilightful sounds of her cursing my name as the whip falls about her shoulders.

[Jazzie-sub]

Originally posted by rob.wilson
Maybe it's just me, but having a bratty sub is kinda fun. Lots of different ways to torture...err correct her.

Oh the dilightful sounds of her cursing my name as the whip falls about her shoulders.

Ahh, this would be where the old adage, "Different strokes for different folks." fits very nicely. Pun fully intended.

~jazzie

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by rob.wilson
Maybe it's just me, but having a bratty sub is kinda fun. Lots of different ways to torture...err correct her.

I believe the word you're looking for is 'satisfy' her.

That's all that giving into a brat does is satisfy her needs and give her what she wants. One could even say that, in some cases, brat subs top from the bottom, pulling their dominants' strings just to get the results they want.

I don't go for that sort of thing.

[Jazzie-sub]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
I believe the word you're looking for is 'satisfy' her.

Here the little novice can show what her studies and readings have taught her... (well, at least her perceptions at this time)

This is more like a scene. And probably a fun one for both participants. It is more like a bedroom D/s thing as well. Its not a likely however, in a D/s relationship... unless it obviously, again, was indeed just a scene.

Just a humble opinion from the peanut gallery.

~jazzie

[Morrighan]

TG, your picture scares the hell out of me, especially when you describe what you do to bratty subs.

Morrighan

bitchy sub

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I didn't even go into any detail.

And don't even get me started on my stand on disobedience.

[Morrighan]

Just the combination of the two--description and picture. *shiver* I used to watch Pinky and the Brain; don't think I'll ever see it again in quite the same light.

And we bitchy subs thrive on disobedience.

Morrighan

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Morrighan
Just the combination of the two--description and picture. *shiver* I used to watch Pinky and the Brain; don't think I'll ever see it again in quite the same light.

And we bitchy subs thrive on disobedience.

Morrighan

Hehehe... Maybe you'd like to spend some time over my knee, then?

[rob.wilson]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
I believe the word you're looking for is 'satisfy' her.

That's all that giving into a brat does is satisfy her needs and give her what she wants. One could even say that, in some cases, brat subs top from the bottom, pulling their dominants' strings just to get the results they want.

I don't go for that sort of thing.

Personally I believe that its harder to be a Top/Dom than a bottom/sub. We have to be the creative ones, coming up with new and devious ways to "satisify" our subs. Pushing their boundries without breaking them, taking them to their limits and then pulling back.

Personally I see nothing wrong with a brat "topping from the bottom", since were both getting what we want. At the same time however she has to realize that this is a fine line. If the Dom is not satisfied then the play is one sided, and ruined for both.

[Finding_Fantasy]

The purpose of being a submissive is to be submissive, not to play little mind games and act up to get what you want. That's called being childish, not submissive... and this is coming from myself as a submissive.

Topping from the bottom is in no way submissive. I do not understand this attitude of, I am submissive but you have to break me first. What? If you have to be broken into submission, you are not a submissive. If you are being broken into submission does that not mean that you are unwilling to be a submissive, to do things against your will? There for, in my opinion, would that make a submissive or a "victim"?

Just a thought or two from my brain. And keep in mind, these are my opinions.

[Jazzie-sub]

An opinion that is shared by many, who in my opinion are more true innate submissives, as opposed to those who like to be submissive in the bedroom, or would have fun 'scening' the brat girl gets broken by strict Dom thing.

I believe I am the more innate submissive type.

Disclaimer: This in no way shape or form is to be taken judgementally by other submissives. I am no expert, I am not trying to indicate that there is only one true submissive type or that there is anything wrong with falling on one end or the other, or some combination there in the middle.

In fact, I believe we all are unique unto ourselves... The key is finding the right fit when looking for a Dom.

~jazzie

[slavelucy]

Originally posted by Finding_Fantasy
The purpose of being a submissive is to be submissive, not to play little mind games and act up to get what you want. That's called being childish, not submissive... and this is coming from myself as a submissive.

Topping from the bottom is in no way submissive. I do not understand this attitude of, I am submissive but you have to break me first. What? If you have to be broken into submission, you are not a submissive. If you are being broken into submission does that not mean that you are unwilling to be a submissive, to do things against your will? There for, in my opinion, would that make a submissive or a "victim"?

Just a thought or two from my brain. And keep in mind, these are my opinions.

Hmmm...*thinking*...not sure i wholly agree with you there FF. In terms of your first paragraph, although being submissive is about, well, being submissive (ooh, how perceptive of me! LOL), i don't believe that this rules out any element of experimenting with boundaries and having some degree of interplay with a dominant.

With regards to the second paragraph, although i totally agree that it is illogical that anyone truely submissive would need to be 'broken' as such, i think there is occasionally some degree of a dominant and a submissive adjusting to each other, or, even further, a dominant helping a submissive to realise, understand and enjoy their submissive nature. In my view, submissives are not necessarily (in fact, hardly ever) one dimensional people, and they are often extremely multi-facted individuals, and hence it can be difficult to 'come to terms' (for want of a much better and positive term) with their submissive desires...consequently a dominant doesn't so much 'break them', as help them...but it is essentially the same thing, just phrased differently.

Oh, also, if a submissive was too accepting of their submissivenes....would the dominant have to therefore by definition relinquish some of their dominance??

Interesting point though, very.

sl

[Wontworry]

With regard to satisfying a sub, for Me the whole point of being a Dom is to enjoy and express My wishes/feelings with regard to being in control. I cannot think of a better way of excercising that control than to be able to satisfy My sub, through the use of pain and humilation, combined with love and respect.

Why would a sub stay with a Dom who didn't give her what she wanted, which must mean 'satisfy' her ? Isn't the point of being a Dom or sub to gain satisfaction in your own way ?

Surely a Dom who gives no thought as to whether or not his sub is satisfied is no more than a sadist. I have no problem with someone being that (just a sadist), other than when such a person wants to describe himself as a Dom.

Being a Dominant is, to Me, so very much more than just handing out punishment. If I thought for one moment that My sub was not (ultimately) being satisfied then I would be changing what I was doing, until she was also 'enjoying' the experience.

[rob.wilson]

Originally posted by rob.wilson
Personally I believe that its harder to be a Top/Dom than a bottom/sub. We have to be the creative ones, coming up with new and devious ways to "satisify" our subs. Pushing their boundries without breaking them, taking them to their limits and then pulling back.

Personally I see nothing wrong with a brat "topping from the bottom", since were both getting what we want. At the same time however she has to realize that this is a fine line. If the Dom is not satisfied then the play is one sided, and ruined for both.

To clarify a little - when I said "pushing their boundries without breaking them" I was referring to safewords. If your whipping your sub and they are screaming their safeword and you continue to whip them, this is "breaking the boundary".

If you manage to hit them 15 times one week and 20 the next this is pushing their boundries.

I'm sorry for the confusion, I thought it was rather clear at the time.

As for the second part of my orginal quote, since BDSM is, or should be safe, sane and consenual at all times. I see nothing wrong with a sub "topping from the bottom" at times. However it is important that the Top/Master/Dom(me) knows when to put the sub back in their place.

IMHO anyway, YMWV

[Morrighan]

that some people who are dominant in all non-sexual aspects of their life enjoy being dominated sexually as a way to lose control. Without putting my own theories into practice (yet) I'm dominant in every way, but I think I would enjoy being dominated, though most likely only in the bedroom. I don't know what that makes me, but it would be a relief to NOT be the one in charge for once.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Wontworry
With regard to satisfying a sub, for Me the whole point of being a Dom is to enjoy and express My wishes/feelings with regard to being in control. I cannot think of a better way of excercising that control than to be able to satisfy My sub, through the use of pain and humilation, combined with love and respect.

Which is fine. Nothing wrong with satisfying her, when cisrcumstances call for it. What this threead is about is dealing with a submissive that is intentionally bratty just to garner some extra attention. Giving into that desire, that manipulation, is not a dominant trait, nor is it satisfying her through love and respect or whatever. It's letting her manipulate a situation as she sees fit to achieve a goal that she wants accomplished. In other words, it's essentially letting her top from the bottom.

A submissive that wants attention is one thing and completely normal. A submissive that demands attention is another thing and should be dealt with differently in my opinion.

Why would a sub stay with a Dom who didn't give her what she wanted, which must mean 'satisfy' her ? Isn't the point of being a Dom or sub to gain satisfaction in your own way ?

What's the point in maintaining that you are dominant if all you do is give your submissive what they want? Certainly, the true power in any DS relationship rests with the submissive, but it is the dominant that is supposed to issue the rules, ensure discipline is followed and maintain the presence of obedience and respect in the relationship.

A DS relationship is usually about both parties being satisfied in some way, yes, as are most other relationships. However, satisfaction for a submissive is generally achieved through the complewtion of tasks, the following of rules or through a regimen of discipline, not throught gentle )or not-so-gentle) manipulation, brattiness or outspokenness. These things, in my opinion, are best dealt with through means that do not satify the inadequate behaviour of the submissive, but instead encourages her to change her behaviour to something that belies the confines of the DS relationship form that has been previously discussed and established by each partner.

Surely a Dom who gives no thought as to whether or not his sub is satisfied is no more than a sadist. I have no problem with someone being that (just a sadist), other than when such a person wants to describe himself as a Dom.

I would think that person that gave no thought to his partner's feelings one way or another is an abuser, not a sadist and not a dominant. Even a sadist will assess his partner's responses and make sure she is not being pushed farther than she should be.

A dominant, however, as I mentioned before, does allow for his submissive's satisfaction, but within a maintained structure. Typically, a dominant will set down rules or a disciplinary regiman that must be followed. If the submissive follows the rules, she is rewarded, if she does not, she is not. After all, why should a submissive be rewarded for bad behaviour? Would you give a child a piece of candy for acting like a brat in the middle of the mall or a restaurant? Why would you do any differently with your submissive?

Being a Dominant is, to Me, so very much more than just handing out punishment. If I thought for one moment that My sub was not (ultimately) being satisfied then I would be changing what I was doing, until she was also 'enjoying' the experience.

Of course being a dominant is about handing out punishment and both parties in the DS relationship should have satisfaction, just as in any relationship. However, as a dominant, I believe my satisfaction comes from knowing that my rules are followed, discipline is maintained and my submissive is happy, satisfied with me as a dominant, but also respectful of the discipline I have set for her to follow.

Were I to expect that my submissive was not happy, I, too, would change what it is that I do.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by rob.wilson
To clarify a little - when I said "pushing their boundries without breaking them" I was referring to safewords. If your whipping your sub and they are screaming their safeword and you continue to whip them, this is "breaking the boundary".

A person that does not respect a submissive's safeword is no dominant. That person is an abuser and has no place in any relationship, DS or not.

As for the second part of my orginal quote, since BDSM is, or should be safe, sane and consenual at all times. I see nothing wrong with a sub "topping from the bottom" at times. However it is important that the Top/Master/Dom(me) knows when to put the sub back in their place.

IMHO anyway, YMWV

I agree with you. Sometimes a little fun is fun, just as long as it doesn't get completely out of hand or anything. Allowing your submissive to coo you into giving her a back massage is great, because it can be quite fun to both parties and can lead to all kinds of other, pleasant things as well.

However, allowing your submissive to be a brat and act like a child (not in an age-play sort of way) to get your attention and to make you spank her is not so good in my opinion. I wouldn't stand for that sort of thing personally.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Morrighan
that some people who are dominant in all non-sexual aspects of their life enjoy being dominated sexually as a way to lose control. Without putting my own theories into practice (yet) I'm dominant in every way, but I think I would enjoy being dominated, though most likely only in the bedroom. I don't know what that makes me, but it would be a relief to NOT be the one in charge for once.

I believe that it would make you what is classically known as a sexual submissive. You want to be dominated in thebedroom and submit your body to a stronger man, but you don't want to submit other aspects of your life to that person.

It's still a very submissive quality. You are, after all, essentially giving your body to someone to do with as they see fit, but it's not the same thing as being a 'complete' submissive that enjoys serving a dominant person for the gratification of serving.

Many submissives involved in occasional play (also called bottoms) and many submissives that do not enter into full-time DS relationship are sexual submissives.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Yes, being a submissive should be "satisfying" otherwise, why would you do it? I am not saying that it is wrong for your submissive to be granted satisfaction because I myself want gratification in some fashion or another.

However, using underhanded techniques like acting up, mouthing off, and generally being a "brat" just to get your way and do as you please, to me, is not submissive. Sure there are Dominants that like that sort of thing, but personaly, I don't see how it can be considered submissive.

Also, rob wilson, I hadn't meant breaking in that fashion. I mean in attitude, of breaking their will to resist, forcing them to submitt. I knew exactly what you meant by breaking limits.

However, I do not believe that being a Dominant is any harder that being a submissive. Yes, it is true that the Dominant has to be the imaginative one, to come up with "fun and interesting" ideas. However, it is also difficult to be a submissive as well. It is not an easy thing to allow someone else to guide your actions, to be told how you are to act, what to wear, so on and so forth, to totally give yourself over to another's discretion. It is difficult because humans, as a rule, thrive on free will, being allowed to do as they please, and to take that free will and place it another's hands is very difficult.

Basically, I just don't feel that someone who acts "bratty" or in my opinion, like a spoiled child for the soul purpose of antagonising the Dominant to get what she wants is "proper". If that is how you are or what you like, I aplogise for any offence, but I will not apologise for my opinion. Many would consider my forcefulness, my passionate opinions, as unsubmissive as well. That's just the way life is. It is filled with perceptions and every one, in their ow way, is correct if it works for the parties involved. But I, personally, do not care for "bratty", "mouthy" and "manipulative" "submissives"

[MrJerseyGuy]

Originally posted by Finding_Fantasy
However, I do not believe that being a Dominant is any harder that being a submissive.

Very profound FF! I guess it depends on your perspective. I don't like hurting women per se' I like hurting my sub because I know she enjoys it. Everytime we push a limit it seems to bring us closer. The more intense the sex, the more intense our relationship becomes. At the same time, I would never ever hurt her outside of her own boundries. Everytime I plan something new...which she has come to expect...I agonize over whether or not I am overstepping a limit.

I'll be the first to admit that in the bedroom...it's always harder on her. But mentally I can spend many more hours worrying about a scene then she spends suffering through it.

We have only been "in the scene" for just over a year which I suppose makes us newbies...but I have enough shit spinning in my head to keep her tied up for the next ten years (no pun intended)

Poor me (or poor her) like I said, it depends on your perspective!

I love this site...you guys keep up the good work!

PS. We just started taking pictures last week when I introduced her to her new nipple and clit clamps...I'm hoping to start posting them soon...when I have her Ok.

[albear]

as it has been said, submission can be a hard thing to come to terms with (and i'd wager being dominant can be too) it's easier to be bratty so that you feel like you don't have a choice about submitting.

i'm not a bratty sub, i'm a bratty person. however, i am much more settled and definitely more submissive when i'm in a d/s relationship. since that is not to be anymore, i've become bratty and cheeky again

it was easier for me to resist and act up even though i loved it until i came to terms with it in my own mind. it's a long journey. maybe thats the kind of relationship Kati is after. whatever, it's her relationship.

just another humble opinion from the peanut gallery *giggle* i like that saying, i think i'll adopt it!

[desade9]

*carefully looking around trying not to step on someones foot*

as it has been said, submission can be a hard thing to come to terms with (and i'd wager being dominant can be too) it's easier to be bratty so that you feel like you don't have a choice about submitting

what about people who switch ?? There's no coming to terms with one side or the other. God bless the day i call myself a true dom or sub...

It's still a very submissive quality. You are, after all, essentially giving your body to someone to do with as they see fit, but it's not the same thing as being a 'complete' submissive that enjoys serving a dominant person for the gratification of serving.

For me, and i admit it's still just a fantasie, i enjoy serving a dominant person to the best of my abilities...but only in a sexual way.
Moreover, i only like to dominate women who are considered "strong". It's the reversal of that image in the sexual sphere that i find exiting

just my two cents

regards

D9

[Barton]

My slave is sometimes what you might call bratty. I find that most times she does crave a spanking. But when I feel that the brattiness has gone far enough, more severe punishment is called for to remind her that she is a slave.

Barton.

[slavelucy]

(This thread has been split and moved - the original Personal Ad and all posts properly pertaining to it remains in the Personals Forum, the ensuing discussion regarding bratty subs has been moved to here, Knowledge Base - feel free to continue to contribute! - Thanks. sl)

[Flaming_Redhead]

as it has been said, submission can be a hard thing to come to terms with (and i'd wager being dominant can be too) it's easier to be bratty so that you feel like you don't have a choice about submitting.

YES! *nods emphatically* I agree that it's much easier for me to submit if I'm "forced" than it is for me to obey a politely made request. Hmm....I guess it kinda takes all the responsibility off of me to just do something willingly. I need to think about this some more.

[TomOfSweden]

That was quite a bump

[bad_kitty_77]

Am I the only one having trouble discerning the dark text of BDSM_Tourguide's posts?