Poll for deleting inter ratial storys

[Mobius]

Sorry I dont know how to do a poll but I dont realy like interatial storys.

They always are very demeaning to either the african american or cacation race.

They always make the african americans sound like something from a black exploytation movie from the early 70's like shaft or blackula. It is just very enoying when an other whise great story is ruined by racial slurs from the charicters..

Please do we need to have racial bigitery by either race in a bdsm story?

Sorry do not want to offend any auther and yes I can vote by simply not reading them. But some of the plot lines are good so I suffer through them any way.

Just my humble opine

Moby

[redEva]

I share your pain Moby, but … it is your choice in the end! I do not like the snuff, neither do I like scat of water sports or amputation or Dolceteism … yet – if I want to read about n/c induced lactation I end up with all of the above!

We already had discussion on underage and on snuff … and what it all ends up with is (IMnshO) if you don’t like it, don’t read it (like TV – change the channel).

There must be people out there that enjoy interracial stories (I do, for one, some at least), otherwise I do not think anyone would write them!

I am not trashing you here, in fact I totally agree with you that unfortunately most stories portrait African Americans as Ghetto rejects – which offends me! On the other hand – I quite enjoy them being overly well endowed – so … for the sake of the story I will forgive the author the omission of the brain.

What can you do!?

My 2 cents (Canadian!)

[Nikita]

Dear Mr. Mobius:

With all due respect, :bowkneel: what difference do these stories make?

Readers use their own judgement. You have to assume that the writers of these stories have an audience. But so what? These stories don't really change anyone's attitude either for or against racism, do they? As if Anyone Really Cares What I Think.. :blahblah:

Although there are legal limits on freedom of speech, such as threatening someone or a group in a letter, story, verbally, or through innuendo, they are basically free to write on any subject they want.

I'm sure that if a story of that type is posted, the moderators will act accordingly. :seehear:

Personally, :sandbag: As if Anyone Really Cares What I Think, :blahblah: I don't like stories like this for several reasons and one of them is theyre not compelling enough to read. I don't mean to offend the writers of these stories, but I am not your target audience.

:soapbox:Can't ban the racist stories. Can't ban your opinion, but I value it, and you have freedom to express it. :cuffs: Can't squash freedom of expression because it affects all of us. As if Anyone Really Cares What I Think... :blahblah:

Nikita

[Mobius]

I dont realy mean to have them banned either. It is just that they ruin what would be an awsom story by the stupid racial slurs.

Palidon has some great idea's in his storys. and I dont mean to through him under the bus but he is the first author to come to mind.
He has writen some great story lines about teachers being dominated by there students but then he mucks it up with the silly racial banter. To me that is just an deflating experiance if you know what I mean.

Yes I know that there is an audiance for this genera and most of them were hoods with a kkk on it.

Some times I can clean it up with a find and replace but then it is not realy worth it is it.

[Cordoza]

Mobius.

Who is forcing you to read what you don't want to read?

PC mudslinging on this site is rediculous. If people are going to carry on complaining then let's not be hypocritical folks, let's be completely politically correct and shut the whole site down!

It is very hypocritical for anyone to object to something they find offensive on this site whilst in turn wiriting or practicing something that others may also find offensive. I write and illustrate stories about women being abused, but I'll be very happy to sue anyone who states that I practice or would ever condone such things!

In a nutshell, it is clear that many BDSM members are aware that the word fiction means fiction, while others are still having trouble using a dictionary! As for racism, why not remove any mention of 'non-white' story characters and be really racist by depriving 'non-whites' of the human right to sexual fantasy. Abuse 'white' girls by all means...not really surprising is it, coming from a man?...oops! there we go, PC mud slinging again!

[ProfoundSubmissions]

I agree in the end people should just read what they truly desire to read because its your choice what interests you, I understand not everyone is into the same thing but in the end its all up to the reader to decide what they desire to hold within themselves through the mind.

[Cordoza]

Permit me to add a further comment in a less blunt manner.

Mobius contributes a valued point, demonstrating a sensitivity that can only do this site credit. But censorship may ultimately destroy this site. On a personal note, I agree with much that Mobius says, but any 'distasteful' story can be well written and interesting, even if only from a historical or multi-cultural point of view.

Ok, many 'non-whites' used to be slaves, but I am British and for hundreds of years during ancient times, the Romans enslaved 'white tribes' too. They endured terrible brutality, torture, mass rape and murder, but it won't stop me writing or reading an erotic tale of Roman enslavement. One is reality, the latter is fiction.

Instead of endless soul searching and debate, I recommend BDSM adopt a down-loadable PDF story feed back form, so readers may state if the story they read was -:

Their/not their topic?
Competently/averagely/badly written?
Would/would not like to read more of the same?
Quality rating?
What other subjects would you like to see the writer tackle?
etc, etc.

Such feedback would be invaluable to authors and ensure that readers get exactly what they want to read, and it will encourage, assist and extend an author's contributions.

Alternatively, if you have the time then write to the author directly.

[alexandra_p27]

censorship is always a problem.
undepending on the form or topic.
but one must always decide wheter to control society
or not: control induces safety the opposite freedom.
that's same with every law.

My personal oppinion:
I don't mind interracial as long as it is not racism.
I hate these WW2-stories, especially when it comes to
stories about jews in Nazi-Germany.
Maybe this is because I am german, but I think it is the same
with black and hispanic people in US. Not the same history but the
problem to use these people as main characters.
I don't like pedo and snuff too, and I think it should be off-topic.
But that's only my personal opinion.

What I hate most is censorship.
So I would just would appreciate that everybody thinks twice
about what he/she is writing and publishing

Alexandra

[Cordoza]

As for 'thinking before writing', how come I be really picky and point out that our German friend has spelled 'Nazi-Germany' with capitals, but 'Jews and Hispanic' without capital letters. Many people would interpret that grammatical error as racism. Ironically, I see that the word 'German' doesn't have a capital either, but the overall accent certainly appears to be centered on the words 'Nazi-Germany'. My point here is that it isn't just a matter of 'think before you write' but also 'think before you read.'

On a general note, let's anticipate the future of this site and say, how about someone appears in the forums one day and says:-
"Hi, I'm a new member at BDSM, but I wish to strongly object to any mention of BDSM topics, which I find offensive and immoral. I think that everyone here should treat the existing stories and role-play on this site as genuine abuse, it is never consensual, and has no place on a BDSM site. However, I think I'm going to enjoy it here!"

How would you answer that?

[alexandra_p27]

As for 'thinking before writing', how come I be really picky and point out that our German friend has spelled 'Nazi-Germany' with capitals, but 'Jews and Hispanic' without capital letters. Many people would interpret that grammatical error as racism. Ironically, I see that the word 'German' doesn't have a capital either, but the overall accent certainly appears to be centered on the words 'Nazi-Germany'. My point here is that it isn't just a matter of 'think before you write' but also 'think before you read.'

On a general note, let's anticipate the future of this site and say, how about someone appears in the forums one day and says:-
"Hi, I'm a new member at BDSM, but I wish to strongly object to any mention of BDSM topics, which I find offensive and immoral. I think that everyone here should treat the existing stories and role-play on this site as genuine abuse, it is never consensual, and has no place on a BDSM site. However, I think I'm going to enjoy it here!"

How would you answer that?

Your response ís completely right but although hints in the wrong direction.
I stresses the word Nazi-Germany on purpose, but my thread was a critique.
I had the intention to deliver it as the worst case.
As I said: I hate censorship.
If you had read attentively, you might have read that, too.
Maybe you just didn't want to read it.
Me myself I anticipate the future of this forum and if you prefered
no critque at all, i guess we could shut down the forum at once.
I think I made clear, that what I posted was my personal opinion.
But the diffence I mentioned is surely visible for everyone who
ever thought about things being just "immoral" or being that "immoral"
that they are prohibited by the constitutional law of nearly
any country, even though it is just a "quantitative difference".

Thta's why I wrote, everybody should think twice, I don't want to
permit any publishing, but you should maybe just spend a second to think about such problems before publishing a story.

[alexandra_p27]

Your response ís completely right but although hints in the wrong direction.
I stresses the word Nazi-Germany on purpose, but my thread was a critique.
I had the intention to deliver it as the worst case.
As I said: I hate censorship.
If you had read attentively, you might have read that, too.
Maybe you just didn't want to read it.
Me myself I anticipate the future of this forum and if you prefered
no critque at all, i guess we could shut down the forum at once.
I think I made clear, that what I posted was my personal opinion.
But the diffence I mentioned is surely visible for everyone who
ever thought about things being just "immoral" or being that "immoral"
that they are prohibited by the constitutional law of nearly
any country, even though it is just a "quantitative difference".

Let's make the problem more obvious: would you like to live in a country
where you could buy books and magazines against your race on
any bookstore or newsstand? You just wouldn't need to read it, so where is the problem.
So we are in the www and this is not national in the sence of a shop on the street, and laws are different, but it might be, that the effect of the medium
is not so different at all.

[Cordoza]

There appears to be a misunderstanding as I have simply been playing devil's advocate. I intended no offense. I truly value every opinion people have.

I did read everything that Alexandra wrote and never considered anything she said intentionally racist, which is why I said 'grammatical error' and also called her a friend. I'm only too happy for anyone to disagree with anything I offer to say. It is pointless to write stories that nobody wants, and I would still hope that BDSM may like my illustrations.

Perhaps I should state that while I am personally against racism, I only mean where such material is clearly racist propaganda, i.e. it advocates intentionally offensive racism as either morally or practically justifiable. I am not against racism in context as either a part of factual reporting, historical documentary, or fiction, provided it does not seek to promote offensively racist principles.

I think it might be possible to write a story about erotic racial abuse, providing the tone of the story balances the abuser's sexual gratification against the victim's suffering, or clearly states that the abuse is/or becomes consensual. Personally though, I tried to think of that concept when reading an erotic Gestapo story about Jewish abuse, but no matter how hard I tried to be neutral, it just made me feel very sick, and I couldn't read any more. From what I did read, it looked like racist propaganda to me!

Members may know that I have a fictional story about Gestapo lesbian abuse of a French secret agent in the BDSM library. No way was my story intended to be racist against the French, and even so, the entire plot was so ridiculous that I don't see how it could be taken seriously. Disrespectful of French bravery, possibly, but definitely not intended. I did get a couple of unhappy comments from French readers, but none from other nations. It would be interesting to know French people's reactions if one proposed publishing an erotic story about the (documented) French Government's brutal torture and sexual abuse of Algerian women. And OK, let's be fair, how about the British abusing Colonial settlers, or simply taking your male or female partner over your knee and smacking them with a hairbrush, it's all a matter of personal taste and tolerance.

As for mentioning the Gestapo, the general understanding is that such Nazi organizations do not, and never did, represent the majority of the German people. It comes back to what exactly should be censored? I believe that if something is illegal then it should be banned outright, but if it isn't illegal, and clearly fiction, then if people don't like it they shouldn't be reading it. I don't read it, so why should you?

I only write stories about lesbians abusing other women, and I have no doubt that every gay or bi-sexual woman out there is laughing her socks off at my silly clumsy ideas about gay sex and attitudes. But be fair ladies, you don't always agree with each other either! It's all only my fantasy!

I hope this doesn't upset anyone.

[Cordoza]

Okay, let me post something constructive here. Which of the following examples would you find racially unacceptable when reading a fictional story?

1.
"I'm going to flay you alive, Chinese scum!" screamed the Mongol warlord.

2.
Simon was in heaven as he bound the rope tightly around the Mexican whore.

3.
It would be a terrible day for humanity if any torturer felt pity for a dumb nigger!

4.
The year is 1782 and a slaver grins as he surveys his fresh Negro cargo.

5.
"All Americans are evil!" spat the captured terrorist, displaying a typical arab attitude.

6.
The Indian squaw's agony turned to pleasure as the soldier's whipping began to turn her on.

7.
"It was Monday morning," the Nazi recalled, "and a soldier was rounding up the usual Jewish trash."

8.
"I couldn't see clearly in the club, but it looked like two white guys screwing a black guy! and man was he enjoyin' it."


Food for thought I hope.
Why not add your own examples for discussion.

[redEva]

In regard to your question in food for though - NONE, as long as it fits with a story line.

I am bit sorry to see this discussion turning into finger pointing while the originally, well intended Moby made a valid point: why can we not find a story where Afro-American is well educated, well situated, well endowed sophisticated sadist giving it tastefully to little white whore? Thinking now about it, I did find more than one of this scenarios but in F/f story - not so much with Males as Dominants.

It will be a sad day when our fantasies get censored, and I hope not to see it.

There are codes and story outlines (which some authors use better than others), but in the end the bottom line is - if you don’t like it - don’t read it!
And, pretty please, leave my n/c, young and incest alone - I love jerking off to those!

[Ranai]

In addition to Cordoza’s interesting examples, here are some analytical questions about 'racism in fiction'. These are not about content but about form.

Are racist notions in the story opinions attributed to certain characters?
Are they expressed in dialogue? Do they show up in thoughts?
If so, which characters hold the racist notions? Are there characters who disagree?
Does the plot ‘show’ that a racist stereotype is ‘true’?

Here’s a text sample in different forms. Yahoos are humans; Houyhnhnms are horses. For Houyhnhnms, Yahoos and Europeans, just insert any ‘superior’ and ‘inferior’ groups you wish!

(1) Yahoo as I am, it is well known through all Houyhnhnmland, that, by the instructions and example of my illustrious master, I was able in the compass of two years (although I confess with the utmost difficulty) to remove that infernal habit of lying, shuffling, deceiving, and equivocating, so deeply rooted in the very souls of all my species; especially the Europeans.
Original quote from Jonathan Swift: Gulliver’s Travels.
Narration in first person; the ‘inferior’ speaks about himself; subject and object are identical.

(2) The master horse addressed the audience.
‘Yahoo as he is, by the instructions and example of me, his master, he has been able in the compass of two years (although with the utmost difficulty) to remove that infernal habit of lying, shuffling, deceiving, and equivocating, so deeply rooted in the very souls of all his species; especially the Europeans.’
Dialogue; the ‘superior’ speaks about the ‘inferior’.

(3) Yahoo as he was, by the instructions and example of his illustrious master, he was able in the compass of two years (although with the utmost difficulty) to remove that infernal habit of lying, shuffling, deceiving, and equivocating, so deeply rooted in the very souls of all his species; especially the Europeans.
Narration in third person. The notions are presented as facts.

(4) ‘It wasn’t me! I didn’t do it!’ he protested, hoping that they would put the blame on some other worthless Yahoo.
It was another contemptible display of that infernal habit of lying, shuffling, deceiving, and equivocating, so deeply rooted in the very souls of all his species; especially the Europeans.
The plot confirms the stereotype. The narration generalises it.

(1) and (2) present subjective opinions, (1) a case of slave mentality, (2) a master talking about his pet.
(3) and (4) present the notions as ‘true’. (4) is by far the strongest example because it not merely says so, it shows.

There's a difference whether a story contains characters who have racist opinions, or whether characters act according to racist stereotypes and thus ‘confirm’ them. (Now if you are looking for further interesting times, insert ‘sexist’ instead of ‘racist’ in this sentence and apply it to a selection of stories.) This does not actually solve the ‘racism in fiction’ question, it just differentiates it somewhat.

Like Mobius and redEva, personally I would be happy to see more interracial stories that are simply interracial. Without the bigotry and without the racism. It appears, however, that racist stereotypes for some writers and readers work as a fetish of its own?

[Nikita]

Mr. Cordoza,

At the risk of stretching the envelope on this forum's tolerance for my opinion, as if anyone really cares what I think, and fully expecting the Wrath of Cordoza to rain upon my head, I would like to painfully point out the following:

In one of your saner moments, you wrote: :applaus:

Instead of endless soul searching and debate, I recommend BDSM adopt a down-loadable PDF story feed back form, so readers may state if the story they read was -:

Their/not their topic?
Competently/averagely/badly written?
Would/would not like to read more of the same?
Quality rating?
What other subjects would you like to see the writer tackle?
etc, etc.

Such feedback would be invaluable to authors and ensure that readers get exactly what they want to read, and it will encourage, assist and extend an author's contributions.

Alternatively, if you have the time then write to the author directly.

This was a great suggestion, however, (whispering), we sort of have that review form in place in the library section.

In this post, you didn't follow your own advice:

As for 'thinking before writing', how come I be really picky and point out that our German friend has spelled 'Nazi-Germany' with capitals, but 'Jews and Hispanic' without capital letters. Many people would interpret that grammatical error as racism. Ironically, I see that the word 'German' doesn't have a capital either, but the overall accent certainly appears to be centered on the words 'Nazi-Germany'. My point here is that it isn't just a matter of 'think before you write' but also 'think before you read.'

Didn't your mother ever teach you to think before you speak? :slap:

In this post, the hole you dug for yourself got bigger:

Okay, let me post something constructive here. Which of the following examples would you find racially unacceptable when reading a fictional story?

Then listed all his examples. I hesitate to pick ANY of your examples for obvious reasons.

This phrase shot the mercury through the top:

Food for thought I hope. Why not add your own examples for discussion.

Allow me to hand you a shoe horn to get that foot out of your mouth.

Just when I thought this topic was dying down and everyone got their writer's hat back on, Mr. Cordoza decided to wear a hat that belonged to someone walking a tightwire. And yes, I can unsubscribe to this thread.

I agree with redEva when she pointed out::woman:

I am bit sorry to see this discussion turning into finger pointing while the originally, well intended Moby made a valid point, etc.

To encourage further discussion on this topic would be like fanning the flames on a hot summer day. :fire: As if anyone really cares what I think.

Let me point out that you and I are relatively new members and on the same footing. So, don't be offended if I suggest it is time to put the horse down and bury it,edhorse: as if anyone really cares what I think.

Nikita

[alexandra_p27]

OK, I don't wont to make this discussion lasting longer and go to another point, as it was meant to direct to.
(Oh lord, my english)

Let's just make my opinion clear without going in details on
storylines, expressions, etc.
1) a BDSM-Library must provide a space for uncensored publishing, because as soon as you do censor, the library will break down, but
2) a BDSM-Library should not be an organ for the spreading of racistic ideology, so
3) authors, take your own writing serious when it comes to the point, whether the use of character of specific races is a regular part of the story or meant to be racistic

Alexandra

[Ranai]

why can we not find a story where Afro-American is well educated, well situated, well endowed sophisticated sadist giving it tastefully to little white whore? Thinking now about it, I did find more than one of this scenarios but in F/f story - not so much with Males as Dominants.

Red, have a look at the nc-turned-romantic tale Susan’s Christmas by Quin? Perhaps you’ll like it. I think it's a pretty well-written fantasy.

[NistShadow]

From my perspective, a character or characters in a story which act and talk in a racist manner, while in it self, is disgusting (to me at the very least) if it is within context, i see no problem with it. There is and has been many people over the years who are or were quite frankly racist. This is a truth, it might not be nice, but thats what it is. However when the author professes to a racist position or writes a story which promotes a racist position as being a good thing, then thats when i have a problem. To look at Racism subjectively, maintain a neutral postion and tell a story involving it is a hard thing to do.

[afroerotik]

As an African American writer, a Domme, and a person greatly concerned with the perpetuation of the negative and stereotypical depictions of people of color, I can say that the vast majority of offensive interracial erotica is written by white people. It seems, even in their fantasies to be dominated, white people enjoy making us into one dimensional caricatures in which Tyrone always seems to be standing on the street corner playing basketball or in a bar, he's barely literate and well endowed and apparently lives to fuck white women. Adding insult to injury, when I as a Black writer contribute stories about educated, empowered, autonomous Black dominants, or even stories of all Black characters, white people come out of the wood works to call me a racist. I wrote an article on the phenomenon of white submissive men once and I got death threats.

I can't tell you how happy I am to see a forum where white people are outraged at the racist perpetuations of Black sexuality in interracial erotica. What a breath of fresh air to even be having a conversation about it.

[H Dean]

Sorry I dont know how to do a poll but I dont realy like interatial storys.

They always are very demeaning to either the african american or cacation race.

They always make the african americans sound like something from a black exploytation movie from the early 70's like shaft or blackula. It is just very enoying when an other whise great story is ruined by racial slurs from the charicters..

Please do we need to have racial bigitery by either race in a bdsm story?

Sorry do not want to offend any auther and yes I can vote by simply not reading them. But some of the plot lines are good so I suffer through them any way.

Just my humble opine

Moby

Essentially, Mobius, you are suggesting that you have a prejudice against bigotry and those who enjoy utilizing racial stereotypes in their writings. Do you see the irony?

[Mobius]

Resently there was a story that had diragitory terms for afracan americans in it, The author used the term N@g@R often. I hated it as much as when the authors that write this stuff use diragitary terms for white people.

I just find it all distastfull. Sorry it is just my opine.

Not to say that any thing should be censord. But I would enjoy the storys more if a strong dominent chariter domed another chariter regardles of race or religen etc.

God, I am going to get kick out of the republican party for being to politicly correct. I dont like racisem and I dont have a problem with abortion.

Moby

[H Dean]

Finding something on this site that is distateful is rather funny, really. Do you know how many people find any and all of this site distasteful? Be glad that people can be distasteful or we wouldn't have so many good tales on this site as we do.