Why I should keep my mouth shut

[Dongthong2005]

My husband (his name is Dongthong) is letting me ask this question. Why I should keep my mouth shut? SInce the day we met he has made me submit to regular tugging of my pussy and tits, with plenty of slapping, especially to my face. He told me, after a second date when I asked him about why he slapped my pussy so hard he said that it was his way of having fun and that I shouldn't complain unless I planned on leaving. So kept my mouth shut the entire night, even after the punishment he gave to my entire legs and later at his house futher punishment to my tits and pussy while making love. The next few dates I kept my mouth shut, even though the games centered around me picking objects for him to use to punish my pussy (bottle caps, twigs, paper, his fingers, etc.). He calls this the fourplay for my punish fuck. the idea is to punish it enough to the point that I will cry when he fucks me- he wins. I finally spoke up on our first weekend which was designed to "see what I can take" and involved heavy swings to my pussy, tits and face. BY Sunday morning I was too sore and i got up the nerve to ask him to stop a little- this was the wrong thing to say-be whimpy. While I was completely naked, he sat on my face, slapped it, fucked it, because I didn't keep my mouth shut. He really humiliated me and made me bendover, speread my legs and say things like "that was really wrong of me to say that teach me a lesson and spank my pussy- let it swing" then he would swat my pussy and ass. Hestill does it today, but I ahve more resistance. I am afraid of speaking up as I know it result in further punishment. Tupical I grin and bear it and hold on for the ride, until he is done with me. Any suggestions?

[GarrickBailley]

sounds like abuse if you don't want him to do it and he does it anyway...

[Aesop]

sounds like abuse if you don't want him to do it and he does it anyway...

I couldn't agree more. That's abuse.

[Ozme52]

Normally I'd agree, but as I was working my way "up" the list, I just finished reading your accounts in the physical fitness thread. It appeared that you were saying you loved getting this kind of treatment... perhaps I misunderstood.

What's the real issue?

[submissivewife]

Ozme...I disagree from what she just posted, it sounded too much like abuse. She had asked him to stop..."a little" but he didn't, he kept going. Just sounds wrong to me.

[Aesop]

Normally I'd agree, but as I was working my way "up" the list, I just finished reading your accounts in the physical fitness thread. It appeared that you were saying you loved getting this kind of treatment... perhaps I misunderstood.

What's the real issue?

Yeah I read the other post after my original post. I must say I'm confused. In one it seems you enjoy it and here it seems you don't.

[Ozme52]

I hear you subwife, yet, in the other post, she also said:

The best thing about my husband is he doesn’t listen to me. He knows that I am a whimp but love to be punished and I am more happy when I satisfy him- whatever it takes.

That's why I would want to hear from her again first...

[submissivewife]

mmmmmm a contridiction. Safe word obviously needed to be used in this situation; if you really wanted to stop that is.

[Ozme52]

A safeword is something that she doesn't mention anywhere... and she has married him since starting this level of behavior. So I question the request for advice... at least on face value. There is more to this I believe.

[Tojo]

Yet another relationship that sounds as if D/s is being used as a front for abuse to me.

I certainly don't know enough to make any informed decision, that's just my opinion from reading this thread.


Tojo

[bunkerchief]

For an abused person to so freely give so much detail doesn't ring true to me. I see no evidence of distress in the post. It reads more like a post where the person who is writing is actually getting off on what they write.

[submissivewife]

Hestill does it today, but I ahve more resistance. I am afraid of speaking up as I know it result in further punishment. Tupical I grin and bear it and hold on for the ride, until he is done with me. Any suggestions?

This sounds like distress to me. She gave details because that what is needed for us to understand. Also, why should she fear of speaking up? Sounds like she is distessed over how things have gone beyond where she wanted to go.

[bunkerchief]

This sounds like distress to me. She gave details because that what is needed for us to understand. Also, why should she fear of speaking up? Sounds like she is distessed over how things have gone beyond where she wanted to go.

The reason for my comment was because of having worked with abused people, most abused people are reluctant to discuss their abuse and certainly to openly volunteer details that they would find extremely humiliating, even in a protected environment where they feel secure and with someone they have come to trust. It is why the police have such problems prosecuting the abusers and why so many abusers go unpunished.

I accept I could be wrong.

[csr]

It's written in the style of an erotic fantasy. What is the chance of a confused, abused person coming to ask these questions at a forum attached to the bdsm library? You just may be right in your assessment.

[ACommittedSadist]

The thing about BDSM relationships is that context and consent is everything. You can have a very, very hard relationship where consent was only given once, in the beginning, and have no abuse what-so-ever. Or you can have a relationship that, compared to many BDSM relationships, is very light yet full of abuse. Assuming that this is real the information given here is not sufficient to make that judgement.

Donthong, you asked for suggestion but you did not say about what, and that is the critical piece of missing information. What is it that you would like advice on? How to endure this, how to talk to him about it, how to make it stop? Until we know what your looking for we cannot offer any meaningful advice.

[Dongthong2005]

Thank you soo much for your concern. This is Dongthong's wife. Dongthong and I understand that some of the time and some of the things are abusive, and we have been working to reduce. Yes we have used safe words at least two times. The problem is we tried with the safe word, but we didn’t follow strictly the rule (at least twice I said it and then within 15 minutes I took it back). Also, we made it too confusing. Yes, I am addicted to submitting, serving, and I am addicted to sex. Donghtong likes dominating me because it’s a thing of power. Trully, I don’t understand completely what he means because he makes me feel like I am the bad/stupid person. The problem is his power issue/desire to control has a lot of humiliation in it (and constant) and involves punishment that is sometimes too painful. Sometims it is too hard, but we let it go. In short, we are trying to create a balance, but with both of us being sex addicts it hasn't worked out as well as we would like. You should know that I was sexually molested from the age of 5. I grow up thinking I was bad, and that is the reason why these type of things were done to me. I often believed that the only person that loved me was my father and I hated my mother. I am still insecure, but Dongthong has taught me to believe in myself. I have not controlled my sex behavior around other men, which destroys me in many ways. He always shows his love to me and says he can do better. So he is a good person. However, he is strong with his words, and they hurt sometimes. He gets very frustrated with my behavior, and because I can’t make up a decision on my own- let's the words fly. Lastly, I love being punished, and ask for it in my own way. He tells me I actually beg for it. I have become aware of this begging/needing behavior.

[Mistress Florence]

It sounds like you really do need to create a balance - if you're not quite content with how your D/s relationship is working. Explain to him clearly about your insecurities, and maybe take the level of your bdsm play back a few steps to decide what you're really happy with. Safe-words are to be taken seriously, if you find yourself using it and taking it back, be more clear in deciding what you can handle and what is off limits. I think it seems like you need to be told how great you are, what a good slave you are - more regularly. I assume he knows you were sexually abused, explain how your self esteem can be low and that harsh words hurt. If you're truely afraid sometimes of what you'll have to face if you speak, rework things out. If it thrills you, then fine - but fear can drive you into a corner, careful!

[ACommittedSadist]

I would say you need three things at this point, communication, communication and communication. Talk about what works for you, what does not, and what you want and expect out of the relationship and have him do the same. Talk to him about what limits you need. Talk about how to have your safe word fill the role that you need it to, ask yourself why you take it back and how that makes you feel. If you are upset after maybe you two need to come to the agreement that it cannot be taken back.

[Ozme52]

You sound conflicted Dongthong-wife, I don't know what I would do were I in your position, but I think I would look to my friends to help me put things into a better perspective so you're not so controlled by the past. Build anew so to speak.

Dongthong, it sounds like you've lost your self control. As a dom, it's important to maintain a somewhat cooler perspective so that you don't get carried away. Go slower so you can savor the power rush you feel rather than letting it escalate out of proportion...

Except for a certain cathartic feeling, such (I call them) 'enragements' are never as satisfying as the total sexual release that accompanies a slow buildup of power/tension. Akin to the difference between premature ejaculation and tantric orgasm. I always look for something inbetween.

[Brosco]

It seems to me that you 2 are compatible and in getting what you want, you tolerate some things that are a bit more than you want.

It seems like this is a good time to really think about exactly what you do want and what you don't. Your husband should also do the same. And while I suggest you will both need to go through some healthy discussions, you might find it easier to get the discussion going by first writing out your likes and dislikes and giving it to the other to read.

In the 'dislikes' area, issues mentioned here should not be seen as a criticism of the other, but an area that has been failed to be communicated in the past, and needs to be discussed now.

I wish you luck in using the communications to grow closer together and both get closer to achieving their wishes.

Brosco

[Barton]

Bottom line. There must be parameters that guide your play. A safeword is sacred...PERIOD! When it is used the scene stops! If you as a dom are not able to adhere to this then you are an abuser and not a dom at all.

While there have been many good suggestions made here, communication is the best one. You both need to know the limits and what each is desirious of.

As the dom it is your responsibility to maintain control of a scene. Getting carried away is an excuse for posers and pretenders and there is no place for either in BDSM. Pushing limits is fine but you must know when and how to push them. The fact that you both play with no object in mind or set of ground rules is disturbing.

I would recomend that you both stop all play until you have come up with a game plan that will give you both what you need. And an agreement that a safeword will be adhered to.

No scene can be sucessfull if both parties are not getting what they both need and want.

[learningtopleez]

Thanks Barton! What you just said, so needed to be said!

Please communicate with each other dongthong and wife! It's the only way that I can see this going in a positive direction.

I wish you both good luck and good health!

[Brosco]

OK, I have previously posted on this topic politely, I guess I need to be far more blatant!

Why the hell is everyone so down on this Dom and calling it abuse?

The wife has posted that she 'likes' the treatment.

The wife has posted that she has safewords, but she screws that system up by withdrawing them 5 minutes after issuing them.

The wife has stated that she posted here with her husbdom's concent.

The wife has stated that communications have improved and they are working on issues raised.

Man, they might not have it perfect yet, but any one here who has it perfect may lash the first whip on me.

There is no doubt that both husband and wife have gone into this without the knowledge that has been passed around the net that allow us to better understand our kinks and better communicate them with our partner. So they haven't got it perfect yet - have you?

Perhaps some want to condemn the husband for abuse because his tastes are a bit more extreme than their own. But I don't see the wife leaving the relationship or rushing to a shelter for abused wives. It appears to me she is about 90% happy with what is happening - and she has asked for advice on the other 10%. The husband has listened and is working on it. I feel that those that wish to still condemn him have fallen for the trap of being the protective online Dom that saves and rallies to the cause of subbies in distress.

To me, the wife is not in distress, she just needs to improve certain areas - and to do so, has to understand more about her own feelings - particularly not abusing her own safeword if she wants it taken seriously.

My sister was in a domestic violence relationship for 20 years - not even using D/s as an excuse. It was just vanilla abuse. I abhore any abuse, within the lifestyle or out, but at this stage all I can see is poor communication and lack of understanding of one's own needs. I see also that, perhaps with help from this forum, things are improving. I assure all, they will not continue to improve if the Dom is continued to be cast as the only villian in this situation.

Brosco

[Tojo]

For once I disagree with you Brosco.

I don't think anyone's down on Mr.D - just trying to help them both out. Anyway Mrs.D did say :

I understand that some of the time and some of the things are abusive, and we have been working to reduce

Many relationships have a little abuse in them- I once told my wife to 'shut up' (many years ago I might add!)

As with most things it takes two to tango, & two to work it out. I kept hearing about the 'shut up' incident for something like 10 years after it happened! It was just her way of saying it was unacceptable.

To me it sounds as if our humble attempts at understanding the situation are helping a little.

I make no apology for believing that many D/s relationships are abusive. I'm a pretty gentle sort of guy where women are concerned, many people in straight or kinky relationships seem way overboard.

That's why I usually say it's just my opinion- no one knows what's really going on with someone else, not even them sometimes!

Hope you get it all worked out guys & hey- nothing wrong with being a sex addict!

Tojo

[Brosco]

For once I disagree with you Brosco.

Hey, no probs, imagine how boring a forum would be if it just contained subsequent posts of:
"I agree"
"I agree"
....

Many relationships have a little abuse in them- I once told my wife to 'shut up' (many years ago I might add!)

As with most things it takes two to tango, & two to work it out. I kept hearing about the 'shut up' incident for something like 10 years after it happened! It was just her way of saying it was unacceptable.

Now to me this is an excellent example of how we have used 'rules' in D/s to improve relationships. One does wrong and it is discussed and possibly they are punished, the issue is then closed. When an issue is constantly reraised, it clearly was not given the closure required by the other. A part of my D/s philosphy is that once a matter is dealt with, its no longer available to be thrown back in your face. Its one of the reasons that subbies 'like' punishment, it provides closure. If a Dom used that 'failure' again to criticise his subbie .. it goes back to the 'acid test' thread.. he ain't a Dom.

Brosco

[Qmoq]

Hehe. Sorry to disagree with a bit of what you said, because generally I agree with you Brosco... and you do seem to have far more experience than me. Subs like discipline, not punishment. But I had never thought of the "closure" thing being a desirable part of a D/s relationship.

[Barton]

Without the proper knowledge a BDSM relationship can easily become an abusive one. Both involved parties owe it themselves and each other to gain that knowledge before proceeding down a dangerous path.

But the dom is ultimetly the one who has the responsibility to protect his sub. Even to the point of protecting them from themselves.

There are many articles to help a dom gain knowledge about BDSM. Many are posted here. While learning by doing is sometimes a good thing, studying can help avoid many of the problems that this couple is having.

BDSM is no game to be played lightly if it is to be than just casual kinky sex. And people who wish to live it as a lifestyle should do their homework before playing.

While even the best doms will always learn by doing, they will also make sure that they have studied everything that they can in advance of real playtime.

His sub uses a safeword and then tries to take it back. That is a situation that screams out that there is a lack of understanding, planning, and control of both sub and scene. I make no apologies for my comments. This is not some parlor game!

[learningtopleez]

Brosco it seems to me that the wife has said many things to contradict what you are saying. You feel that the Dom is not an abuser, yet Tojo pointed out a line in which she did use those exact words!

She also said these disturbing words:

Donghtong likes dominating me because it’s a thing of power. Trully, I don’t understand completely what he means because he makes me feel like I am the bad/stupid person. (Sorry, I don't know how to insert from her post.)

Those words scream abuse to me. You say that your sister was in an abusive relationship for over 20 years! Surely at some point she told you how he treated her, things he said, etc. Maybe you even did some research on domestic violence, in which case I would think you would be concerned for this lady too! You don't make someone you love feel bad or stupid. Now if he is calling her a "bad little girl" in a scene, that's one thing, but she isn't very clear, and it just makes me think the worst.

She also had this to say:

The problem is his power issue/desire to control has a lot of humiliation in it (and constant) and involves punishment that is sometimes too painful. Sometims it is too hard, but we let it go.

She does state that they let it go, but if a woman is being abused, it is more likely that she is letting it go. In other words, what I take from this, is that to prevent things from escalating even further, she probably listens to him apologize profusely and listens to him tell her that he will never let it happen again, hoping that it won't. Problem there is, it will happen again, and again, and again. Btw...if the humiliation is private or not, we also don't know. We don't even know what type of humiliation it is. Btw....I happen to like humiliation within a D/s relationship when it is time for play, but punishment that is too painful or hard is not acceptable.

And finally this:

However, he is strong with his words, and they hurt sometimes. He gets very frustrated with my behavior, and because I can’t make up a decision on my own- let's the words fly.

Verbal abuse, physical abuse...neither is good. I was assaulted by an ex b/f some years back while in a vanilla relationship. I never had any signs that he might do this to me and I had known him for 20 years. We had only been living together for about 2 1/2 years when the assault took place. I did lots of research, because like dongthongs wife I felt I had done something wrong. Then I talked with some folks in domestic violence centers, and found out that it is a pattern for abusers to first try and control, then to change little things about you...the way you dress and the way you fix your hair and make-up. His father had abused his mother and he was continuing a cycle.

BDSM is supposed to be safe, sane, and concensual, neither of which I am seeing from the little I have read from this lady. That is my concern. I don't want her to be hurt, nor him either, for that matter. But I do call 'em how I see 'em! And this reeks of abuse! IMHO anyway.

[Tojo]

(Sorry, I don't know how to insert from her post.)

Just copy & paste the quote into the reply window, highlight it, then click on the little icon above to the left of the # it says "wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text" when you hold the cursor over it.

Way cool.


Tojo

[Brosco]

Hehe. Sorry to disagree with a bit of what you said, because generally I agree with you Brosco... and you do seem to have far more experience than me. Subs like discipline, not punishment. But I had never thought of the "closure" thing being a desirable part of a D/s relationship.

Like all in the L/s there are no hard and fast rules. Discipline does seem to be a standard tho, whereas punishment may or maynot be liked. Take the wife in this thread, she says she likes punishment and even creates situations to receive it.

Some need the threat of punishment to help them not 'fail'.

Some need punishment because they associate punishment with being bad or failing.

And of course, Dom's feelings about punishment vary too. Some don't like to punish, others feel it is just a natural part of the relationship.

It does become a biggie for compatibility on the BDSM Limits Checklist. If the Dom likes to punish, but the subbie hates this aspect, we are now could get towards abuse. On the otherhand, if the sub feels the need to be punished, but the Dom hates to do this and avoids it, his control will slip away as she tries more 'tricks' to get the punishment she wants/needs.

The closure issue is not necessarily part of every relationship that includes punishment, but it is the way I (and subs I have used it with) view it. There was disobeydiance/failure, there was punishment - the matter is now closed - it didn't happen, the only way now is forward. It removes the sense of failure because the matter has been 100% dealt with.


Now, if we think about this and get back to the main thread here, we have a confused subbie (and I don't mean that as criticism of her, just highlighting again that she really needs to sort out what she really wants), she likes punishment and creates situations to get it, but then finds the punishment can be too much, but will still deliberately do something to receive more!!!!

Couple this with the invoking a safe word, but retracting it 15 minutes later, again she was finding what she was receiving was too much, but 15 minutes later wanted to receive it again!

Now, it doesn't matter how much information is provided in a post, the full understanding of a relationship can never be described, and so we have to work on what is said and draw our own conclusions about the meaning of some of the things being stated.

I get the feeling that the wife is a masochist, and does want to cope with whatever is dished out, but then gets herself confused (and probably disappointed with herself) when she can't handle basically what she asked for. Can you imagine how hard it is for the Dom in this situation to be able to get it right? In fact, it almost guarantees that he will 'fail'.

The wife has stated that they have talked and are working on the issues, so I get the feeling he does want to get it right, but until the wife understands what she really wants, he can't possibly succeed.

Brosco