Topping from the Bottom

[AdrianaAurora]

I am having a trouble understanding what people mean when they say "Topping from the bottom"? Can a non dominant person ever truly do that?
What do you consider topping from the bottom? How do you deal with that? How do you stop?

[In2kink]

Topping from the bottom is considered inappropriate behavior in most BDSM, D/s circles. It is accurately defined as a submissive attempting to manipulate the dominant into doing what the submissive wants in a scene or situation or a situation in which the submissive becomes whiny, pushy or annoying about their desires, thereby inverting the normative power dynamic so that the dominant feels put upon instead of feeling respected and appreciated. Actual topping from the bottom is most assuredly a control issue and a serious breach of the transfer of power dynamic and accepted etiquette.

As a dominant I find attempts by submissives to engage in this practice unsavory and irritating and feel compelled to immediately squash it. When a dominant is no longer in control of the situation, their role is diminished. They become nothing more than a participant in the situation or scene. They lose credibility because as the dominant they should always be in complete control. They should project at all times a commanding presence so that the submissive never entertains any notion of attempting to flip or top them.

Certainly every submissive has the right to open, respectful and straightforward negotiation and the right to communicate her/his personal perceived needs to the dominant with the understanding of course that the dominant will make the final decision about whether to provide scenes and circumstances to address the needs shared. Negotiation is not topping from the bottom at all but simply the standard process for fostering the level of meaningful communication required in any kind of relationship, D/s or otherwise. I think in keeping with the basic tenants and ethics of the D/s the submissive has every right to negotiate and to have the expectation of being taken seriously if she/he realizes that the relationship as it stands is not working out or meeting deeply felt submissive needs.

Hope this explanation helps you to better understand what bottom topping is.

In2kink

[fetishdj]

You are making the basic assumption that those who are doing it are in fact submissive at all. By the very fact that they are Topping from the Bottom it is clear that they are not submissive - or at least, not yet fully comfortable in their submission to truly give up control.

All the above info about it is true... I would also like to emphasise a point made above by adding that generally Topping from the Bottom only occurs *during* a scene - not before or after it. By this I mean that negotiations about limits before a session and feedback given to a Dom/me after it is over are not usually considered to be Topping from the Bottom. I would also say that, in general, telling a Dom/me that you really like something is not in any way a guarantee that the Dom will perform this action on you and therefore is also not Topping from the Bottom.

So, the issue is manipulating a Dom/me while they are 'in character' and carrying out a session. For some, of course, a 'session' is an hour long play session with discussion before and after while for others 'a session' could be a full 24/7 TPE relationship, with all variants in between.

Now, one thing that does need clarifying... how do you distinguish between a manipulative sub trying to Top from the Bottom and a Bratty sub just being cheeky to get the punishment?

[Daumon]

You asked what "topping form the bottom' is and does it really happen. As in all relationship the type of control is not always as it appears. When a sub pushes or guilds the Dom into how control is exercised they steal a bit of the control from the Dom. Alll limits seeting an negotiation should be done in advance of the beginning of a session or 'scence'. If a sub tries manupating or controlling once it begins then they are going outside the agreed roles and rules set.

Examples: A Dom hurrying through complex rope work they pride themselves in and enjoy. They are doing to get to the next item that plannned because the Dom artist rope work does not interest the sub. They know the 'sub really likes' they next part of the scence more. Haing been told many times just before the scence started or obvious from the subs 'Im bored so hurry up' expession. Now the Dom is not in control and are instead being topped.

If a sub uses a whinny bratty attitude to push a Dom into what , when or how to do something its manipulation. Real negotation is when both agree in advance what is to be done or not done. Manipluation is not allowing the agreed control and altering the roles of the two involved.

So if you feel your sub is pushing and manipulation the scence you need to stop and take control. tell them point blank to behave and let you continue with what you both agreed to. otherwise you need to stop the session and have a long serios talk about whats really happening.

[AdrianaAurora]

Thank you for your response Daumon, but I wasn't wondering (so much) about topping during a set scene as I was about rest of the time, in a (everyday/constant) D/s relationship (that isn't 24/7 total power exchange).

I think fetishdj came closest to my conundrum - where do you draw the line about whether a sub is being manipulative or a teasing and/or bratty sub more or less playfully testing/challenging her Dom? Or do you simply don't stand for either i.e. you make no distinction between the two?

[denuseri]

nice thread question sis

i would just respectfully add the following:

Some dominants expect thier girls to "test" limits or be full of"fire" on a regular basis, even after thier dominance has been well established in a relationship such as my owners and mine for instance, in the end i am yielding on my knees, the outcome is undeniable, yet for some its how you play the game thats important, walking the path is more valuable to some than reaching the destination quickly

i have also heard that dominants sometime top from the bottom as well, not the same way that subs try, but the term (and it may be incorrect to say) is often used to describe some dominants "style" of topping, and i have seen many doms use it in a derogatory manner to refer to other doms, which is ironic becuase contrary to popular belief it can be very very effective and devious manner of dominating a sub

doms that have a more passive appearing approch often get tagged with this term, i dont reccomend anyone underestimate them, they are sometimes the best of doms and very cunning, WEG

And switches of course may constantly engage in it, one would think its second nature for them

in many ways especially early in a relationship its quite natural to top from the bottom or at least try, its a submissives best way to see her prospective dominants real strength and character, if he cant handle little ole her, what kinda dom/domme will they be, seeing how a dominant handels such situations is a very useful insite into his pcyche, i wont submit to a "weak minded" dom myself, its not enough he is physically stronger than me, he must also outhink me, he must dominate me in every way

If the dom is really proficient he will put ya where you belong when he is ready, and not before. A lot of doms have zero tolerance for it, even may seem paranoid about it and jump to false accusations with thier sub which is unfortunate because it doesnt set a good pace or relationship standard of trust, and those overreative doms are probably more than a little insecure about thier prowess as a dom so feel greatly threatened by it, they will also be the first doms to disagree with this part of the post. lol

and make no mistakes people i am not saying what anyone else said is wrong, i just believe a different perspective has its advatages, that indulging a sub who you think is "topping from the bottom" on occasion can yield you as a dominat valuable information about your submissive

A dom thats comfortable and secure in his dominion, can afford the luxury of watching his girl test his limits and break her of it or not at his liesure, any time he wants,

especially when he is getting to know his property better, getting into her head so to speak, and when you test his limits he gains valuable information on how to do that, how to better establish his dominion over you .

basically in the end its a two way street, Just one wher the dominant eventually one way or the other gets on top, least he become the bottom

[denuseri]

oh and ps, for your question in everyday 24/7 its the same, regardless of weather we are "playing a scene" which we dont ever use that paticular terminology ourselves, for us sex is sex, we draw no line no boundaries between vanilla and bdsm sex, and our D/s relationship pervades evry aspect of our lives, from what i wear speak say at school, home work to the bedroom etc, its all part of his dominion, i am his property,

something as mundane as me not using his prefered cup and plates to serve dinner or speaking out of turn in public, even what i do and or say here online (in his pressence or not)can be a test of his will, a sign of my trying to top from the bottom, or even as described by others an attempt to direct what will be done to me etc

of course when yu write a daiary, or speak yur mind, or break a rule knowing the result is a certian punishment, all this is also toping from the bottom, by definitions given previously by others here,

some could even say its just another way of expressing ones wishes, this does not mean your dominant will concede them, but its part of the overall communication proccess and i believe imposible to avoid and wholely nessesary to some degree,

otherwise the result is what some call a doormat for a sub and thats a whole different apple

[AdrianaAurora]

Thank you for your post, denuseri. What you describe fits me and Demon perfectly.

*wonders* Were we separated at birth...lmao

I would balk at calling myself his property (though I melt when He tells others I am His most precious possession), but I do belong to Him, its unquestionable. He is not only dominant to the core, but absolutely self assured. When I test Him, it amuses Him or He nips it in the bud. He always rises to the challenge. While we are always D/s, I am also comfortable with Him; to laugh, to tease Him, to playfully talk back and to state my opinion categorically. The expression (topping from the bottom) was never mentioned. So it confused me as I had noticed that there is a large number of Doms who take offense (at such behavior) and would hate for them, for anyone, to misinterpret that as being disrespectful. I am free to be myself, He is capable to dominate me at my strongest and at my most willful (lol). I may be interpreting it wrong, but wouldn't holding myself back and holding in all the time, so he can feel more secure, be topping from the bottom?

[denuseri]

lol, mabey we were ,, mabey we were, especially if yu were born on dec19 of 1979 in lebanon giggles,, hugggs,to be honest i had heard the term used a few times in the gay community during some of my forays there (top and bottom), but never topping from the bottom, till i came here

[Flaming_Redhead]

Can a non dominant person ever truly do that? What do you consider topping from the bottom? How do you deal with that? How do you stop?

The answer to your first question is "yes." I consider topping from the bottom to refer to a situation where a bottom is directing the actions of a top during a scene. It's not necessarily a bad thing. For instance, the bottom may be a masochist but is not submissive. The top may be new and learning from the bottom. The top might actually be submissive and taking orders from a masochistic dominant.

I have never topped from the bottom. Once a scene has begun, the only directing I do is with my safe word, which I very rarely use. The behavior people ascribe to the phrase "topping from the bottom" actually has nothing to do with scening. In my opinion, the people who use this to describe strong-willed subs are insecure because they're not smart enough to outwit being manipulated, or they're just plain too damn lazy to deal with a real person and need a doormat.

[Kuskovian]

I don't mind a girl trying to test my dominance in such a manner, its actually quiet pleasurable and even rewarding to watch them test the boundaries, or allow them to think they have succeeded and then show them they have not.

If I wanted complete compliance all the time I would purchase a mechanical apparatus or blow-up doll or some other such device.

I prefer a girl that is constantly reminding me that I must be strong and vigilent to keep her in her proper place at my feet.

I see too many so called dominants that expect full utter submission on a silver platter with little or no effort on thier part.