Wow I'm just full of questions today.

[IAmCanadian]

So, umm, dressing the way your dominant demands/desires of you is abnormal behaviour? Agreeing that you are a slut if your dominant demands/desires is normal behaviour?

Dressing like a slut is abnormal for the bulk of society. Not referring to oneself as a slut is in line with normal society. That was the only point of those two statements. It was not a commentary on the behaviour of subs, or their relationships with their masters.

Again, if this is what works for you that's fine -- as long as everybody involved knows the rules to play the game, as annie so eloquently put it. And again -- are we talking about discipline or play punishments?

*I* am talking about faux punishments for imagined infractions for the fake purposes of setting a scene. I explained that the Dom's desire to participate in these was likely the reason for the sorts of whispers/messages the original poster was receiving.

Since then, people keep responding to my posts as if I'm making blanket statements about all discipline, and then proceeding to reiterate again that there is a difference between play punishment and real discipline, as if I didn't understand it.

I agree that truth is not a hard and fast rule. Still, there is a big difference between what you call a 'dishonest sequence of statements or orders' as a 'pretense for play' and being punished for reacting to this dishonest sequence in a logical, reasonable way.

There it is again. I agree with this and have agreed with it since I first posted.

It is not the 'you're a little slut' part that bothers me here. It is the 'I'm going to punish you for agreeing with me' part that gets to me. I'm afraid I can't put it any better than I already did, so I'll just stop my ramblings....for now!

Yes. Legitimately punishing a sub for agreeing with him is stupid behaviour on the part of the dom, and a sub should look into leaving him if he continues to do it despite her objections. It is cruel, dishonest mental trickery. I continue to agree with this.

And people continue to reply to my posts to say it.

I have to take a very hard look at how I am communicating here to find where what I am saying is breaking down. Maybe my use of the word "punishment" is wrong. When *I* say punishment in this thread, I mean the sort of "punishment" a sub would find orgasmic, titillating, a positive experience. Positive reinforcement. The opposite of an actual, legitimate punishment. A sex act masquerading as a punishment. I'm sorry if I've just been confusing everyone this entire time. I thought I was being really clear, but I guess I've overestimated my ability to communicate, not knowing the full implications of some terminology.

- FS

[Polaris]

Thanks for clarifying, FS. It was not my intention to put you in any drawer at all, and I apologise if this is the impression I left. I believe we've been talking cross-purposes a little bit. No harm (or judgement) intended, though!

[Ozme52]

See that's weird to me Flesh. But I guess that's because I feel punishment should be used as a form of rightful discipline. Like if I did poorly on an essay or test. Or if I arrived 20 minutes late because of poor planning. Or if I didn't do well on something that actually affected me socially or economically. If not, then punishment seems a waste. As if no matter how good I am, I'm still bad. And, at that point I rebel and lose respect for my Dom for not actually teaching me anything. He's just looking for a reason to get his own kicks.

Well that's the problem that we (often me too) use the one word for both the need to deal with serious lapses and offenses... and for play.

Most of the above examples are about playing... and are therefore acceptable excuses for "punishment".

[MacGuffin]

It is not the 'you're a little slut' part that bothers me here. It is the 'I'm going to punish you for agreeing with me' part that gets to me. I'm afraid I can't put it any better than I already did, so I'll just stop my ramblings....for now!

I agree with you. The Dom should be encouraging and rewarding obedience and the sub in the 2+2=5 case obeyed the Dom's command. In my view there are some basic principles - laws if you will - you should not play around with to get your jollies. There is no need to, the Dom could quite easily have said "you answered too slow" or anything that did not compromise the integrety of instructions and obedience, the cornerstones of Ds.

I would have caught the sub by handing her a calculator and asking her to calculate 1852279*2 and give me back the calcultator. Then I hold the calculator upside down and when I find the numbers seems to spell the word "ASShOLE" I go ballistic and accuse her of insulting me. Other "magical" numbers that looks like words are:

83507 LOSER
558.618 BIg.ASS
5318008 BOOBIES

Do all of them on her and she's got to give up. I mean one insult you can forgive but four in a row, no way can the Dom stand for that.

[denuseri]

It is rather dificult to read some statements made with text alone and corectly interpet them. As the human mind in normal everyday conversation (when in person) allows for the reading of body posture, facial expression and voice inflection we are not recieveing all the information.

Which makes it all to easy for us to assume someone is saying one thing when they are in fact saying another, or take offence at the wording of any given statement.

I would hope we all can keep that in mind, especially when "grilling" a new member. Anyone thats posted in the forums a lot knows we all have typed something others misunderstood and had our day on the duck pond being shot at.

Such examples of testing a submissives willingness to suspend disbelief are a common form of both play and training used by many dominants. Not only in the word of bdsm but also in the training of our own troops (at least according to my owner)for one example.

The main difference being that when in training, one isnt punished for suspending her disbelief but is instead rewarded for doing so. (unless the purpose of the training is being mixed in with the play) which is fine so long as the submissive knows this on an intelectual level, or it has been discussed beforehand. A dominant can indeed mess a submisive up if he isnt careful enough to make sure she isnt misunderstanding what is going on. Just becuase they didnt say that they are taking such care in thier post doesnt mean they dont.

Infantry forces for instance must be taught to "reverse" the teachings of both thier church (if they have one) and or common societal conseptions conserning physical violence towards the individual, so that when in actual combat they can "Kill" the enemy as opposed to freezing up.

Submissives sometimes must also learn to reverse thier own thinking in reguards to what is and is not acceptale. Society tells us our whole lives we are a slut or worse if we do or even think certian things. For some of us to really thrive in our submission (which the vast majority of society frowns upon) we too must be able to suspend disbelief, we sometimes must be able to take a word like slut and turn it around on itself.

There are many many paths to submission. Some steeper than others, just as some are more rewarding.