Blind Obedience?

[Guest110308]

Blind obedience

Common Myths About BDSM Slaves and Slavery
Author: Raven Shadowborne © June 2005
Assistance: DarkCzar @ 2005
Myth 1b: All slaves blindly obey anyone, including their owner.
Truth: Obedience is a requirement for a slave and is pleasing to an owner. However it is not true that a slave will obey anyone that comes along. Slaves must obey the rules and expectations of their owner to the best of their abilities. Sometimes this means submitting to and obeying another, but such is always done by order of the owner and not every owner will share their slave this way.
Myth 5: Slaves are mentally and emotionally weak.
Truth: Weak human beings exist, so I am sure there are weak slaves somewhere. (Weak is being used here to mean mental/emotional weakness, not physical strength) However, such weakness is the exception rather than the norm for slaves. Slaves are strong individuals and have to be so for many reasons:
1.They must overcome society’s (and probably their upbringing) ideas of a “good relationship”.
2.They must have insight into and a good working knowledge of them selves. Weak people are unable to have these as they lack the strength to take such a deep look at themselves and usually have low self esteem and a skewed self-image
3.Slaves have to reveal all of the knowledge this insight gives them to their owners. It takes a great deal of courage and mental fortitude to share these inner things with another.
4.They have to have the self-control needed to live up to their end of the bargain as a slave. This takes strength, especially when they aren’t in the mood or don’t like a task given them. At these times they must rely upon their strength to complete these tasks and to behave in the manner they agreed to upon submitting to their owner.
5.Giving complete control of one’s self to another is scary and very difficult to do. Our culture does not teach people how to do this and it is not easy to do. Doing this places the slave in a very vulnerable position (physically, mentally and emotionally vulnerable). It takes strength to give this control and to maintain submission.
6.Slaves have to maintain all they currently are, and continue to grow as a slave, partner, lover, friend and every other role/title used to describe a person. Someone who is mentally or emotionally weak, can not grow because they lack the strength needed to identify areas that can be improved and to learn from their experiences.
All of these things take courage, strength and commitment to accomplish. A weak person would not be successful with this over time. Slaves do have weaknesses or bad habits, they have moments of fears, confusions, doubts etc., and they get tired, as all people do. Slaves have these moments because they are people not because they are slaves. It is very common for others to blame slavery as the cause for those moments or times in a person’s life, when the true culprit is life itself and the fact that we’re human beings. The inner strength of a slave shows best during these times because it is that inner strength that makes it possible for them to continue being a slave during those down times.
Myth 8: Slaves never question their owner.
This touches upon blind obedience, and the slave’s requirement of informing their owner of their thoughts, opinions, feelings and anything else that impacts upon the relationship or a task given them. However, the prevalence of this myth makes it important to me to separate it out clearly. Slaves are human beings; human beings question the motives, knowledge etc. of other human beings. There are some slaves in the lifestyle that do not question their owners at all, however they are far from the majority. A good owner knows that there is information they do not have and they rely upon the slave to impart that knowledge when needed. They also rely upon the slave to speak up if an order given, or action decided upon, would be harmful to the owner, the slave and /or the relationship. A good example of this is: the couple goes out and the owner drinks alcohol. He/she is too inebriated to drive. The slave then has a responsibility to speak up and stop the owner from driving while drunk.
Some may consider this a no-brainer situation, but it does occur and is one that clearly shows the slave’s responsibility to speak up and question their owner’s decision. In a relationship where the participants took the time to truly get to know one another, it is hoped that situations where such is required would be rare. But in reality, everyone, even a dominant, is capable of a bad decision. We are human and make mistakes. It becomes important for our partners to speak up when they have questions.
Further, the ability to question an owner is required to prevent misunderstandings on the part of the slave. If the owner assigns a task that the slave truly feels they can not complete adequately, or do not fully understand then most usually have the right to speak up, ask questions, clarify the order given etc. This is done to assist the slave in completing tasks in the manner most pleasing to their owner. Many master / slave relationships have rules that govern how and when a slave can tell their owner of their thoughts, feelings and opinions. Despite the variations in this area, every relationship requires such input from the slave.
Hello everyone. I had a interesting conversation in the chat room regarding the topic of blind obedience.
I thought I would take this discussion to the forums. What do you think of blind obedience? Should all submissives submit blindly to their Masters?
Personally, I think that the choice of a strong woman to submit to a Dominant/Master is one of the most beautiful things imaginable. However, I don't think that most dominants truly desire a submissive who would follow any order blindly. Some of the most horrifying events in world history were blind obedience.

[angela_shy]

even where "blind obedience" is a motivating factor (turn-on?) for people, there are circumstances where common sense should (and hopefully will) prevail. This suggests that "blind obedience" is an illusion.
Surely "considered obedience" is a fair substitute - the attraction being that the slave is always evaluating, and either overcoming their reservations, or speaking up to prevent damage that could be a tipping point that destroys the relationship; this is in the interests of Master and slave, surely.

[craven]

Thanks for throwing this one out there sexy lady, I know some of the background to your post so understand your thoughts and appreciate your motivation for highlighting these points.

I for one could not agree with a post more, everything you say apart from being accurate is simply common sense and to disagree would be illogical and impractical in anything other than theory.

There is no weakness in surrender, the words submit and surrender do perhaps in part perpetuate the myth that in doing so there is weakness.

However the act of handing ones power to another, which is in effect what the definition of surrender should be, represents the ultimate gift, this can only ever be offered by those strong enough and confident enough in themselves to do so.

In surrender, submission or whatever we term it there is only true and real strength, those that are less strong are not able to fully hand over their power, they have to or feel a need to hold part of themselves back.

True surrender takes true inner strength, and anyone who thinks differently, in my opinion anyway not fully appreciated the power exchange.

It is therefore also a given then that those strong enough to offer their power to another are not going to be the types of individual that would be blindly obedient, My Domma would never tell me to do anything that was illegal or dangerous, as she treasures me and cares for me, so to endanger me would not be in here interests however if she ever did then even though I have surrendered to her fully, I would question her instruction, we have an agreed way for me to do this and she would expect me to raise my concerns with her.

This does not make me disobedient or disrespectful, far from it, my Domma uses our combined power in both of our shared interests. This is why I feel safe and secure in handing my power over to her. I know she will use it for my benefit, and in the event that I am unsure or feel a need to question her use of it I am able to do so.

I would consider myself to have a strong and robust personality and I have submitted fully to my Domma but I am not blindly obedient nor would she wish me to be, I am her submissive, not doormat. The intricacies and subtleties of our power exchange entertain, amuse and are the oxygen that keep our relationship alive.

Blind obedience would I feel smother our dynamic and in truth be of no interest to either of us.

[leo9]

There was a doorstop novel from the '80s called "Kin Flicks" which seemed to me to be a portrait of the kind of totally submissive personality that vanillas imagine as slaves. She goes from one dominant character to the next, making herself over every time into whatever they want her to be, and ends up sitting at home going over her memories and trying to figure out who she really is when nobody's telling her what to be.

I've seen real people like that on other D/s lists, and it is painful to read them describing how they are abused by some bastard posing as a Dom, and then asking the list to tell them how they can cure themselves of resenting his abuse and make themselves into the mindless flesh-toys that they think a slave should be.

[masterdw]

I think that thinking in military terms is useful. A soldier MUST obey the orders of his superior UNLESS the orders are clearly illegal, or if the officer is acting beyond his authority., See the CAINE MUTINY or CRIMSON TIDE ffor movies that explore this idea. How this translates to me is that the Master may demand blind obediance by emphasising that he is fully aware of the situation. Assuming Master is sober, slave must assume that Master has his reasons. Of course should and will are two different things. In America slavery is voluntary and tests can be failed. Example: Master may order slave to break into a certain house. Slave feels that is going to far, she may end up in jail. She refuses. Master then tells her that this was the house of a friend and there had been a surprise party arranged for her. Master is angry.
Who is right? I believe that Master has the right to test his slave. I believe that Master has the obligation to insure the safety and well being of his slave. If Slave does not believe that Master knows what he is doing, and values her, than she should find another Master. Obviously this trust is not developed overnight. My other Paradigm is a biblical paradigm, where God semands Abraham sacrifice his son. Abraham is willing to obey as a true slave of God. God stops him at the last minute, telling him that it was a test. I don't know any slave that would pass that test, but I don't think any Master would test quite that far.
In short a sober Master can test and a slave, with enough trust should obey, and not question.

[Oak]

Blind obedience!!! I once had a sub/slave girl. Who was totally weak-minded. If I hadn't put clothes out for her in the morning, she would be naked when I got home in the evening etc. I can assure you that I didn't like that at all. I prefer a sub, who can think on her own.

[MacGuffin]

sexyshadylady - I had a interesting conversation in the chat room regarding the topic of blind obedience.

The conversation was with me and came about through a comment I made that people, in all warps of life, should honor commitments they make. SSL said but what if a subbie doesn't agree with or want to obey a dom's order and what if the order is simply wrong. She said that would be tantamount to blind obedience.

I have since had a private chat with SSL to clarify my position. Keeping our word and honoring commitments is the basis for contract law. The whole world revolves around people doing what they said they would do. To challenge this fundamental concept would result in virtual chaos and anarchy.

We then talked about these principles as applicable to bdsm relationships and the blind obedience subject. I explained that the problem really was submissives giving blind submission or doms expecting it. People all to often just meet a dom and within days say "I submit and will do anything you say" without establishing limits or any kind of framework to define the nature of instructions and obedience deemed acceptable in the relationship, I'm not suggesting people draw up a lengthy quasi legal document here, just verbally agree on the basic ground rules, purpose, spirit and scope of the relationship. So if I as dom say, "I will not require you to do anything that may unduly affect your real life health, safety and welfare" then if I order her to walk down the high street naked she would be perfectly within her rights to point out how this would contravene the commitment I had made.

Bottom line is if you give a blind commitment then blind obedience may be justifiably expected. I would argue however that if you promised to do 'absolutely anything" then its not really blind is it, you know what you have agreed to do, In practical terms therefore the problem is not blind obedience being demanded it blind commitments being given or expected.

Offtopic - There is a maxim used in establishing effective business controls systems.

- Say what you do
- Do what you say
- Prove it
- Improve it

Seems to me this maxim could maybe also apply to bdsm relationships.

[MacGuffin]

masterdw - A soldier MUST obey the orders of his superior UNLESS the orders are clearly illegal, or if the officer is acting beyond his authority................................Master may order slave to break into a certain house.
I would argue that the US law is a higher authority than the Dom's instruction and therefore that order was illegal.

In America slavery is voluntary and tests can be failed.
I cannot speak for America but in Europe slavery is illegal in any form and even the act of drawing up of a slave contract or agreement in itself may be considered an illegal act. Looking into my crystal ball I see the day in the not to distant future where use of the word slave in a context which makes slavery appear acceptable will be made illegal,

[Miss_Red]

As a Domina, I have to agree very much with what craven put forth. I feel when a slave and their Mistress (or Master) have a strong bond, there is an unspoken understanding and trust that is key between them. I feel the term "blind obedience" is one that can be viewed and interpreted in various ways, and it is up to the two people involved to first set the boundaries, and know one another wholly and completely so that those boundaries are not broken. I myself do not wish for a mindless slave....it would be like dominating a robot...and that is not what I want out of a D/s relationship. (personally)
Then again, I am not your typical Domina...so it is my personal opinion. I enjoy having a slave who has a mind of their own, yet is obedient, loyal, honest, and trustworthy, and yet is self sufficient, not depending on me for everything.

Red Milf

[rsjankowski]

as a control freak and hopefully a intellectual i have mixed emotion on it, as any order i give should be obeyed, for every order is given for a reason, but i agree that if there is a harmful drawback to the owner or sub/slave then yes that person should speak up.

even though a sub/slave attunes thier thoughts toward thier masters to anticipate what they made need or find pleasing, a submissive thereby is a calculating individual, just ask the ones that weigh the balance of how much punishment they may or may not want to justify an action or decision. but i'm sure that even those that obey without hesitation to an order are figuring what the costs may be inside thier head.

i agree there is no weakness in surrender. i once watched a martial arts episode where to win the battle the hero had to yield to his opponent. in yielding i mean the hero is grossly overmatched in strength, but the hero had stamina and speed, something every sub also needs to be able to deal with some of the orders masters give. in any case the yielding is more of like judo where you use your opponents mass and momentum against them, this yielding is steering the problem to a point of least harm to the hero, or in this discussion the master and/or sub/slave. in the matter of speaking up of the drunk driving example the submissive might suggest(steer) that for her to be better able to please her master , she should let him relax and let her drive to the next destinations as the master's mind surely is on more inportant things (wink). thereby still surrendering to the masters will of going someplace else but with probably a far more different outcome.

minus the rare few that for some reason enjoy being a doormat. i do believe the majority will and should keep a little of themselves back just for the basic needs of common sense and survival. as this lifestyle is a matter of give and take . the dominants have to a sense of responsibility to understand one basic thing, for this type of relationship to continue, you just can't carelessly put a submissive at risk as the cost could be a relationship put on hold or ended altogether as anything can happen in a split second. every couple must give and take a part of thier being for the common whole. even a mirror has a back side which supports the image reflected.

as for "kin flicks", i haven't read the book, but i've heard of case studies that closely resemble that subject, and i pretty sure i can akin that as well to actors who have forgotten who they are from playing so many parts and after much thinking on thier part and asking of others take on the persona they think is best.

as for the soldier who disobeys a direct order. it's not normally a good thing. to justify an action in the military sometimes can't be done on just feeling alone other wise you can be shot on the line (this doesn't happen in today's military). but knowing the rules and regulations. and sometimes quick thinking of a logical excuse can save you from doing something incredibly stupid. and as for abraham, blind obedience (faith) tests by God are always rewarded in some way, in that case it was a foreshadowing of the sacrifice that was come later and how it was to God the father sacrificing his own son for the sake of us all.

i guess the relationships we have has a basis in the business world where people say they are going to do one thing or another and then do it. contracts are made and broken. in my case the've been broken twice by 2 different people. and i as the dominant have as a matter of responsibiluty should take the blame upon myself for that failure. but i digress. a person who agrees to do anything told to them has an implied contract that they will do just that regardless of the situation. we all hope common sense would prevail and even though a girl walking down the street naked would be a beautiful sight to behold specially here in rural america. it's illigal. and can wind up on a person's record which may affect their lives down the road. a dom has the moral and the legal responsibilty not to involve the neighborhood in their doings, (unless the neighborhood already knows and doesn't mind that sort of thing. i would love to know where that would be).

as to Offtopic the first one goes without saying. as the rest is done with honor and people generally live by example of how they would say something. minus those unforseen moments of great decisions.

although the act may be illigal. i'm pretty sure it happens even there as well. as people will live the lives they want to lead regardless of what governing body tells them otherwise. in america slavery is illigal, which drives the police nuts when they run across a couple on what do i do as this is a consenting lifestyle. our lawyers i think are still trying to figure this one.

i believe the majority of the time there is a greater satisfaction of being with a thinking individual who can speak her mind. but the quick gratification of a mindless robot has it's place as well. but that is up to the individual couple and the trust, respect, and love and the regulations that they have set for each other and themselves that that should come about.

great topic. thanks for letting me share my thoughts on it.