Dom/mes, Masters, Mistresses, slaves and subs, where is your pride?

[The Lord Winter]

I speak not to those who are unowned, uncollared, or to those who do not own or possess a submissive of their own. I speak to those of you who know the bliss of ownership from both sides of the collar.

The online community is something that is sorely misjudged every day in physical society. People go online and spend years courting a partner now, both in BDSM and Vanilla lifestyles, and go on to have successful lives together. Yet, through immature behavior, we constantly invalidate the viability of our virtual community as a social medium.

To those of us on top: Where is your pride? Where is your honor? Every day, I watch submissives misbehave on this site as though they had no leadership at all. How is it that we have allowed ourselves to encourage brattiness as something to be worn as a badge of pride. Brattiness is something that should never be confused with playfulness. Brattiness is disrespectful at best, and abhorrent. It is something that I would expect out of a pampered little princess who has never been given a firm and unbending "NO!". It goes against everything we as the leaders train our charges to be. Their behavior is a reflection of our honor, our leadership, and our training. Yet there are those of us who sit idly by and find humor in such behavior, forgetting that we are constantly evaluated and judged by our more honor-bound peers. Do we think that we are islands unto ourselves that can withstand the reputation which comes with allowing an unruly sub or slave to even access the internet and embarrass us? Have we no shame at all anymore?

For those of you who wear the collars... where is your pride in your Master or Sir? Would you so willingly disrespect him to his face? If not, then how can you come on here, representing his values and his teachings, and violate them so willingly by misbehaving and then hiding behind your collar saying "See this? That means you can't touch me no matter what I do or say."

What happened to the training? What happened to the lessons that were learned on the receiving end of a whip, paddle, or a hand... or in some cases... the lessons learned on racks and crosses and wheels, lessons that were sometimes spent as much as a week in learning. Little ones, you have a responsibility to uphold the teachings you were given in all that you do. You have a responsibility to uphold the honor of the person for whom you wear that collar. These are responsibilities that some of you fall terribly short in meeting.

This brings me to two final questions for those of you on both sides of the collar: Is this a responsibility that you are even willing to acknowledge? If so... what are you going to do in the future to meet that responsibility head on and do it true justice?

[Guera]

I don't want to give the entirety of your post a short answer (or your other post either) but I will start with this

"is this a responsibility (implied: the role of the dominants who use this site, to police the behavior of the submissives that use this site) that you are even willing to acknowledge?"

For me, I never was trained, and I don't see anyone else's behavior (except my him) as a reflection of my pride or honor. I do understand where you are coming from, but I am not ashamed that I am totally different than you, in how I came to be here and in how I relate to the other users on this board.

I don't own have any dominion over the submissive on this board. I don't want it. They owe me nothing. Their choice to submit is not mine. Also, my choice to dominate is not theirs. This is actually important to me: when a sub expresses overly courtly/polite mannerisms, especially replete with A/all that crazy C/capitalization, it is really frustrating- it is a very disingenuous.

I assume that most of the people who use this board, whatever their orientation, commitment, and level of experience, are here for the same reason as I am- to learn, to talk to other people, and to enjoy being accepted. I really try not to label or judge others- no matter if I personally think they are bratty or snobby or anything else.

"what are you going to do in the future to meet that responsibility head on and do it true justice?"

I suppose the best answer would be that I will redouble my efforts to be a better person. I will also (and this is not a smear against this site, at all) spend more time looking at other sites and other sources or knowledge. THere are many lost souls in this world, and the more knowledge I have to share, the better. TO quote the Unitarian-Universalist doxology "service is our prayer". I am not a UU, but I agree that actions are the only true method of expression.

Ironically, I am starting the orientation process of a formal mentorship program, tomorrow. The motto is "facta non verba". I do not regret in any way that I come to where I am in a informal way, but I am happy to be able to participate in a forum where I will learn from more experienced and more formal dominants than I.

[_ID_]

Perhaps you are mistaking brattieness for flirting. Additionally some see the brattiness as a challenge to overcome.

While I don't put up with it, I know people who seek it. I also know submissives who do it because they seek someone who can overpower them mentally as well as physically.

Your call for pride in the lifestyle is one that I think can and should be heard, but not everyone is going to heed. We have many married folks who come online as an outlet for their station in life. As a result, they don't have the same sense of respect for this lifestyle as you or I might have.

[The Lord Winter]

For me, I never was trained, and I don't see anyone else's behavior (except my him) as a reflection of my pride or honor. I do understand where you are coming from, but I am not ashamed that I am totally different than you, in how I came to be here and in how I relate to the other users on this board.

Guera, this is precisely the kind of reflection I was referring to, the honor and pride of the one who owns the submissive or slave in question. I agree that it would be foolish to expect everyone but those whom we have direct control over to do as we command. The problem I pointed out is that many Dom/mes and Masters and Mistresses do not consider the online community with the weight it should receive. The internet connects us more completely every day, yet it is still treated as though it just began yesterday. It may only be just out of it's infancy, but it is definitely OUT of that infancy.

No, I'm not speaking to the unowned majority, here, I'm speaking to the collared submissives and slaves that would misbehave in such a way that, were it to occur R/T, the holder of their collar would punish them in such a way as to leave no doubt that such behavior would not be tolerated. These submissives claim ownership, misbehave, and then use their collar as a shield against retribution.

As for training, I believe you misunderstood my reference. I was speaking to the training we, as Dom/mes and Masters/Mistresses, give our subs and slaves.

Thank you for your reply, Guera.

[The Lord Winter]

Perhaps you are mistaking brattieness for flirting. Additionally some see the brattiness as a challenge to overcome.

While I don't put up with it, I know people who seek it. I also know submissives who do it because they seek someone who can overpower them mentally as well as physically.

Your call for pride in the lifestyle is one that I think can and should be heard, but not everyone is going to heed. We have many married folks who come online as an outlet for their station in life. As a result, they don't have the same sense of respect for this lifestyle as you or I might have.

No, flirting is what I would consider playfulness, and unless the submissive or slave is inviting the authority of the one to whom he/she is speaking by misbehaving to test the resolve, at which point... yes, it becomes a challenge.

As I mentioned in the reply to Guerra, however, I'm referring to the collared subs and slaves who blatantly misbehave and use their collar as a shield. It's the whole "I can behave however I want because you can't stop me. You're not my daddy/mommy" mentality.

I agree with you that the call should be heard, and unfortunately, not everyone will heed. More's the shame on that note, because our lifestyle needs the respect it is due if it is to continue to survive in today's world.

[_ID_]

You must also consider that these submissives who are collared might be given the freedom to speak at will to anyone they wish. So long as they respect their dom/Master. I say this because it is the direction I give mine.

Perhaps the misbehavior you see isn't really that, it is disrespect where respect is demanded, rather than earned. Mine has the freedom to speak to anyone else how she wishes. The ones she calls Sir have earned it from her. Those demanding it don't get it. Those demanding it due to their own self proclaimed titles never get it.

[AnticipatingPain]

A kind of see where The Lord.. is coming from. For an example a couple of weeks ago there was a thread in the Dominants section that I would of loved to have commented on but as a sub I thought it would be disrepectful just to post on there. May sound silly to some but I honestly felt that.

[thepast]

I think maybe TLW's original point is that there's a fine line between being a "SAM" or a brat, and just being a complete bratty bitch (pardon the vulgarity, it's making a point). Maybe it's a point that is lost on those who don't partake in our site's chatroom, or another chatroom on another site (I can't speak to those--I don't participate in other sites' chatrooms)... rather than a point driven directly at Forums postings (though I have seen it in forums postings as well).

Often times, I think there is confusion with what a collar is. There are a few reasons for this, and they were described well by Oz in another thread here on the forums (can't remember if it was a pre or post crash thread). But basically it boils down to the fact that people use a collar to describe MANY different things: "I am protecting you from others," all the way to "You are my property." In chat, some people have "tags" on their names, others don't (but have their tag listed in their profiles), and others have nothing listed at all. So there can be a LOT of confusion over someone's status. There can also just be a lot of confusion over what the collar means for someone-- in chat, there are a lot of Dom/mes who "collar" 5+ subs, intending simply to have a bunch of play partners, not to have submissive relationships. Are you confused yet? Because trust me, most people are. And this is what leads to a LOT of the crossed-communication lines regarding collaring.

As for personal responsibility... it all really boils down to personal responsibility, doesn't it? This is an adult website-- everyone is responsible for their own behavior. Dom/mes are not allowed to come into chat and "defend" their submissives, nor are they allowed to take action on behalf of their submissives in chat. We don't allow it because it creates a LOT of chaos. If there are issues, the submissives are big boys & girls, they can handle the problems or they can take it up w/chat staff--there's no need to bring the Dom/mes into the problem. Perhaps this "festers" the problems TLW was talking about--the bratiness, the childish behavior, etc, amoungst the subs. However, I would urge people to look at it from another perspective: where is the personal responsibility? Everyone's behavior is their own. Everyone is responsible for what they type, and what they say. No one can hide behind a collar, a Dom/me, or a relationship. What they do is theirs to own.

IDCrewDawg mentioned that many people come into chat to just "get a release" from their real lives--that is very true. Many other people come into chat to learn about BDSM. Often times, these goals conflict. This is why we have the option for folks to create other rooms to go into, so that they can get out of the Lobby area. This is also why we encourage folks to take certain non-BDSM discussions to other rooms if the discussions are taking over the lobby & the lobby is busy. It isn't to be mean, it is simply to allow everyone to enjoy the chat room. We also have a wide array of people coming into chat: those that live the life r/l, those that live it o/l, those that have been in lifestyle for 20+ yrs, those that are brand new that very day, Dom/mes, switches, subs, slaves, Tops, bottoms, and everything in between, males, females, tv's, tg's, people from all over the world. We try very hard to accomodate everyone's tastes, ideas, desires, and wants. However, what we DO NOT tolerate is disrespect. If it crosses that line, the member finds themselves removed from the chatroom. Short of that, everyone must practice some tolerance, even for things they don't like.

So... yes. I completely agree, TLW, the brattiness has reached a level that's above desireable, and yes, it's irritating to watch. Has it crossed a rule line? No. Is it disrespectful? When it is, it's dealt with (and when it does & there's no admin/mod around, save the log, send it to T or I). However, beyond that, I think the issue is whether the brattiness is something that's just sheer immaturity & a lack of desire to sub (i.e. the individual is simply an immature bottom w/no desire for anything else), or maybe the person doesn't KNOW better yet & needs/wants to be taught more, or maybe the person is intentionally acting out for attention (or for the benefit of their dominant), or maybe the person enjoys being a SAM/brat/flirt, or... who knows. However, the only people we can control are ourselves & our reactions. The more reaction they get, the more they will continue the behavior.

[_ID_]

Ok I'm confused. Are we talking about chat or the lifestyle in general? To me there is a difference of sorts. On one hand the respectful manner can expected in both. On the other hand in real life you can hear tone of voice, body language that conveys respect when sarcasm was used. Allowing a different level of interaction between people.

Knowing what we are talking about makes a difference to me.

[The Lord Winter]

What we are talking about, is the site in general, both on the forums, and in the chat. And what I'm getting at is common courtesy. How much of this would be tolerated if your sub or slave disrespected someone to their face, without severe repercussions? To the Doms and Masters/Mistresses out there... does this community mean so little to you that you would allow your submissives and slaves to come on here with the attitude of a spoiled child and throw courtesy out the window when that very thing is shown to THEM?

This is at the heart of my first post, and what I am continuing to point out with each post in this thread. It seems that common courtesy is not so common anymore, even on a place like this, where the owned and collared should clearly know better. It doesn't matter if they call someone Sir or not, that truly IS a title to be earned through respect. But just because they don't call someone Sir or Ma'am, doesn't give them the right to toss manners out the window as well.

[_ID_]

What we are talking about, is the site in general, both on the forums, and in the chat. And what I'm getting at is common courtesy. How much of this would be tolerated if your sub or slave disrespected someone to their face, without severe repercussions? To the Doms and Masters/Mistresses out there... does this community mean so little to you that you would allow your submissives and slaves to come on here with the attitude of a spoiled child and throw courtesy out the window when that very thing is shown to THEM?

This is at the heart of my first post, and what I am continuing to point out with each post in this thread. It seems that common courtesy is not so common anymore, even on a place like this, where the owned and collared should clearly know better. It doesn't matter if they call someone Sir or not, that truly IS a title to be earned through respect. But just because they don't call someone Sir or Ma'am, doesn't give them the right to toss manners out the window as well.

I don't demand of mine what you are demanding of the community. I let her show respect to those that earn it from her. The rest, they get exactly what they give. Give respect, courtesy and you will get it back.

[fetishdj]

I think this comes down to individual expectations of what a Dom/me considers appropriate behaviour from a sub. Ok, we have already covered the fact that many Dom/mes do not mind and sometimes even expect thier subs to act independently when in conversation with others while at the same time showing them the respect due a Dom/me. This may mean being rude to another Dom/me who they may not consider worthy of the title. The way I have always seen the rules in this forum is that they encourage people to talk. Rules about etiquette sometimes get in the way of this communication - as mentioned above, a sub with a potentially useful opinion or question felt that they were unable to comment on a post because they were a sub. I personally would rather have it so that every sub felt that they could comment and contribute without censure and see 'bratty subs' as a minor irritant which is a fair price to pay for this freedom of speech. This freedom of speech also comes with another price - any poster has the right to say what they want about anything, regardless of status, so long as you stick within the rules of netiquette (attack the post not the poster, etc), but they also have the right to do the same to you. This means that no, your collar is not a shield. If you say something that annoys someone, be prepared to get a reply which may annoy you and your Master/Mistress has no responsibility for it and therefore cannot protect you. Basically, I feel that the forums and chatrooms are not necessarily within the same rules as scene events. We all post here as individuals, not as extensions of who owns us and our opinions are not necessarily those of the people we play with/are collared to.

Some sites do set up boards with specific rules in place. For example, one may only for Dominants or subs (and some boards on here do say that but the posting rules are not really well enforced). Some sites may have 'etiquette' boards where particular rules are in place all the time (i.e. subs must be respectful, always use honorifics etc). Many sites in my experience also have a 'no holds barred' board - an anything goes, no rules, one fall, 2 submissions, gouging allowed, many posters enter, one leaves type board. This is there for the really nasty debate which many posters don't necessarily want but some seem to try to provoke. Here we call that the politics board (only kidding, the politics board here is far nastier than that... )

[StormKat]

The online community is something that is sorely misjudged every day in physical society ... Yet, through immature behavior, we constantly invalidate the viability of our virtual community as a social medium.

It appears that you care very deeply what opinions others hold of you & your choice to spend time in an online community such is this one. Do you feel you're judged negatively by keeping virtual company with the people here? Perhaps it's because I'm very selective of those whose opinions matter but I don't put much stock in what people who don't know me think about me. If someone forms a perception of who I am based solely upon time spent in an online forum, they are welcome to do so, with little impact on my life at all.

To those of us on top: Where is your pride? Where is your honor? Every day, I watch submissives misbehave on this site as though they had no leadership at all... Their behavior is a reflection of our honor, our leadership, and our training. Yet there are those of us who sit idly by and find humor in such behavior, forgetting that we are constantly evaluated and judged by our more honor-bound peers. Do we think that we are islands unto ourselves that can withstand the reputation which comes with allowing an unruly sub or slave to even access the internet and embarrass us? Have we no shame at all anymore?

My pride and my honor are completely intact, yet I feel no need to impose my view of "proper" behavior on others not under my direction. These individuals act in accordance with the guidelines agreed upon in their relationships, which will each vary in terms of expectations & consequences. As far as someone "more honor-bound" evaluating me - what right have they to judge any relationship but their own? And why would their opinion matter to me in the least? It's just an opinion, which everyone is entitled to & most people freely express.

For those of you who wear the collars... where is your pride in your Master or Sir? Would you so willingly disrespect him to his face? If not, then how can you come on here, representing his values and his teachings, and violate them so willingly by misbehaving and then hiding behind your collar .. What happened to the training? What happened to the lessons that were learned on the receiving end of a whip, paddle, or a hand ... you have a responsibility to uphold the teachings you were given in all that you do. You have a responsibility to uphold the honor of the person for whom you wear that collar. These are responsibilities that some of you fall terribly short in meeting.

I have no doubt that my minion will uphold my honor - and I will be the one to judge if any "misbehavior" has occurred, not someone who knows neither of us nor the parameters of our relationship. The only one to whom he owes respect is me - not any other random person on the Internet or in real-life who grants himself or herself a title. Respect is earned, not just passed out because of a claim to dominance.

Also, I would place no restrictions on his right to express his own opinions or to speak his mind in a forum such as this. The Library is a site for the open exchange of ideas, for the asking of questions & seeking of insight. Why would I limit his ability for self-expression in this environment, as long as he does not violate the posted rules?

[Guera]

One question- though the OP seemed (not totally clear) to only be talking about how dom/mes should direct and control the behavior of their subs. I am wondering how many of the users of this board (chat, forums, stories, etc...) are part of a dyad? I get the feeling that the majority are not, and of those that are, they are either in an online only relationship or their partner does not partake of this board (much if at all). I don't think it would be easy for the dom/me to have much if any authority in those situations.

If the sub does chose to "behave" in a way that the dom/me does approve of, I think it is 100% the sub's choice, not the dom/me's. And dom/mes would be pretty lame, for lack of a better term, for trying to take credit for that. Its a wonderful thing-a good sub does the right thing just because they care about what the dom/me cares about. No permission needed.

[Guera]

And, I don't mean to minimize the others wonderful posts, by basically saying this whole thing is a non- issue.

[leah06]

I don't understand this at all. If the OP's comment is that some people are being rude, then yeah, they should stop. I don't see what this has to do with them being subs or owned or unowned or whatever. Everyone should exhibit basic good manners, Dom/mes as well as subs. But once he gets into how it reflects badly on the owners, etc. etc., he's lost me. It only reflects poorly on the owners if their dynamic is such that the owner monitors the sub's online behavior, cares about it, and agrees with the OP about what's rude and what's not. Those are a lot of ifs. Otherwise I'd say, you do as you like with your own property and let other owners do as they like with theirs. That's respectful, and basic good manners.

[CuntyVonTwatington]

I know I'm a relatively new member so it's quite possible I haven't the slightest clue what I'm talking about but.... if someone's rudeness crosses the line, shouldn't you just report it to a room mod regardless of whether or not they are owned or not or submissive or not? I shouldn't like to think that Dom/mes would be allowed to be rude either.... but anyway, if someone doesn't like the tenor of the lobby, couldn't that person just create their own room with whatever "rules" they liked?

[Archeon]

First off let me say very good post TLW.

Let me expand on something by commenting on the phenomenon of chat here. A lot of subs (especially owned subs!) like to show off how much more dominant their dom is, by being bratty and rude to other doms then going afterwards "ha, he couldn't control me in chat, he is so weak".

The problem with this, is that most of us have very little time and patience for this game. First off, IT IS CHAT, it is not real life, I am not going to "cyber punish" you, quite frankly the idea is ludicrous. Secondly, I am not going to punish someone elses sub, in public or private, I will simply talk with their dom later on, and if they think that makes me look weak, so be it.

Personally very early on in my relationship with any submissive, I make a very clear point that everything they say, might as well have come from my mouth. Seeing as how I am quite capable of getting into trouble on my own, I expect anyone talking on my behalf to try and stay out of it, treat everyone else with respect, and know where their boundaries lie when dealing with others, especially other doms(something blue does exceptionally well I feel!)

A lot of the problems occur when the relationship is more focused on the play side of things, this mentality of actually the dom being responsible for the sub doesn't exist, so the sub is essentially free to do what ever he or she wants when dealing with other people. Is this an excuse for basic manors and civility to be forgotten, certainly not.

Regards,

Arch

[steelish]

While in the chat room lobby, I enjoy verbal sparring and being flirtatious. However, if I ever offend anyone with what they feel is disrespectful behavior towards them, I would like them to let me know. I would be horrified if I truly offended someone in that manner.

That being said; I am not one to bow and scrape to someone simply because they identify as a dominant. I am polite to everyone until they treat me in a demeaning manner. (At that point, I will still be polite, but "respect" will have flown out the window - but that doesn't mean I would be rude to the person. I simply wouldn't interact with them.)

To that end...it is sometimes difficult to know WHO is "old-school dominant" without extensive information on profile pages. I try to visit profiles whenever meeting someone new on the site to get a general idea of the person, their "role" and their status so that I am aware of Dom/me or sub or male or female, etc. It's not very helpful when people are cryptic on their profiles.

People who want to play (whether by being silly and flirtatious or even "sexting") are fairly obvious. Those who want to have serious discussions are also usually fairly obvious. I go with the flow, whether in chat or in the forums. Serious discussions call for serious well thought out answers, whereas playtime is playtime.

[The Lord Winter]

It appears that you care very deeply what opinions others hold of you & your choice to spend time in an online community such is this one. Do you feel you're judged negatively by keeping virtual company with the people here? Perhaps it's because I'm very selective of those whose opinions matter but I don't put much stock in what people who don't know me think about me. If someone forms a perception of who I am based solely upon time spent in an online forum, they are welcome to do so, with little impact on my life at all.

It does appear that way, doesn't it? Seems I have been a bit misleading in that regard, but I digress. It is not about being judged negatively or positively. There are those that we could bend over backward in our attempts to please and still they would look down their noses, yet neither is that the point of this thread. In truth, until recently, I've said very little on the boards, giving little of myself for anyone to form an opinion on, except for the handful of friends I've made on the boards in my time here.

The purpose of this thread is to ask of the basic manners one would expect anyone to display: Where have they gone?

My pride and my honor are completely intact, yet I feel no need to impose my view of "proper" behavior on others not under my direction. These individuals act in accordance with the guidelines agreed upon in their relationships, which will each vary in terms of expectations & consequences. As far as someone "more honor-bound" evaluating me - what right have they to judge any relationship but their own? And why would their opinion matter to me in the least? It's just an opinion, which everyone is entitled to & most people freely express.

As I stated in my original post, I was not speaking to the unowned/uncollared majority. I am referring to the willful ones that Archeon tagged quite efficiently as playing the "you can't control me in chat, so you're weak" game.

I have no doubt that my minion will uphold my honor - and I will be the one to judge if any "misbehavior" has occurred, not someone who knows neither of us nor the parameters of our relationship. The only one to whom he owes respect is me - not any other random person on the Internet or in real-life who grants himself or herself a title. Respect is earned, not just passed out because of a claim to dominance.

As I agreed with Dawg, respect is earned, I agree with you here also. but I speak not to respectfulness, but to manners and courtesy. It is, in some areas of the site, chat included, sorely lacking.

Also, I would place no restrictions on his right to express his own opinions or to speak his mind in a forum such as this. The Library is a site for the open exchange of ideas, for the asking of questions & seeking of insight. Why would I limit his ability for self-expression in this environment, as long as he does not violate the posted rules?

Again, it isn't about speaking one's mind or restricting the expression of opinions, but of doing so in a well-mannered and courteous context. If we expect such behavior of our charges offline, why not carry it online when this social medium is becoming more and more of an integral part of our daily lives?

[Ozme52]

The purpose of this thread is to ask of the basic manners one would expect anyone to display: Where have they gone?

Perhaps you, or those you have watched, did not themselves show appropriate online manners...

I don't spend a lot of time on chat, but when I do, I never have had to deal with rude or bad manners, not more than once.

It's sort of a 'reap what you sow' venue.

[The Lord Winter]

Perhaps you, or those you have watched, did not themselves show appropriate online manners...

I don't spend a lot of time on chat, but when I do, I never have had to deal with rude or bad manners, not more than once.

It's sort of a 'reap what you sow' venue.

Agreed on both points.

I spend a bit of time in chat, but mostly as an observer, or chatting in PM's with friends. I can't say that I've caught the kind of attitude that I'm describing, but seeing it pop up is something that has set me wondering about the situation, however.

[wyldrose]

Lord Winter- i'm sorry to see that You've obviously been exposed to some pretty bad behaviour. i however don't feel that it's particularly widespread- at least with the collared subs/slaves i regularly interact with. i, like a lot of submissives, like to joke around with friends here, be they Dominant or otherwise, but i'd rather gouge out an unspecified body part than to disrespect my Master or indeed any of my friends.

We all learn through repeated meetings with others online (or otherwise) what is an acceptable standard of behaviour around that particular person. i dearly hope that all that's happened is that somebody's overstepped what they thought was acceptable or that it's been interpreted that way. i don't know of any submissive, online or no, who would knowingly portray their Dominant in the ways You've described.

[denuseri]

Look just becuase you say your a dominant doesnt make you one to me.

It takes far more than logging onto a bdsm site and putting "dom" in your profile to earn any kind of "extra" respect. The ones who go pandering for it the most are often the least dominant anyway.

Common courtesy is what it is, it has its place, just as much as vicarious wit does in chat, which if you spend anytime in you will find is a much more complex situation than just one conversation, often times multiple conversations are taking place, the dynamic involved is quite different than if you were sitting around in real life with a naked subbie at your feet. Dominance and submission there is often acomplished in private, but you can see the dynamic at work all the time between the rooms particapants.

Visit a site where the subs dont speak unless told too and you will find a very boring site full of engine talk, sports, and other non-bdsm topics, with the occassional online "serve" being pasted in from some bored girls clipboard who is probabely in IM with someone else on the side.

As OZ mentioned, those who are attuned to their dominance can still manage to command all the respect thats due them (without complaint, showboating or whinning about protocols btw) when they come into chat, even from the so called brats.

In so far as any online offers of trainning are conserned I highly reccomend the following thread:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=21495

[Guera]

thanks Denuseri for posting that link, I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it. Thanks again.

[Archeon]

*ponders where he can find a chat room where subs only speak when spoken to so I can talk about cars*

[Guera]

That made me laugh, which would normally mean a "thanks" was in order, but on the other hand, maybe I should thank all the a "bratty subs" of the world, for protecting me from a never ending episode of "car mania".

[GearJammer]

Interesting. Chat changes... not big changes on the surface, but, as I see it, significant changes in philosophy.

Then, I find this thread.

The observant individual has to wonder if the two are related. Personally, I think so, but what I think does not matter; this is not my living room to manage, it is someone else's. If I decide to come here, I consent, by coming here, to their management, no matter what that is. If I do not like their management, I should not come here.

The OP has, he says, a problem with lack of manners. Yet, reading the original post brings the idea of every unowned sub bowing to every Dom/me (claimed or real, matters not) that strolls into the chat. I personally despise that idea. Subs are NOT, in my view, a lower class of human and I recoil sharply (and occasionally dangerously, in person) at that concept.

More conversation happens... and kudos to delia for very astutely pointing out that "However, the only people we can control are ourselves & our reactions." Well said, delia. How I do wish that everyone understood the total global nature of your statement.

None the less, it appears to me action has been taken. "Immature" conversation is not to be tolerated. BDSM conversation is the order of the day. This results in a lot of "what toy would you rather use/have used?" questions and discussion, and I fervently hope that all participants get a great deal of good from those discussions. I fear, however, that it will come by the sacrifice of the community that was the chatroom frequenters. I believe I have already seen harbingers of that coming true.

Personally, I tend to conduct myself with my girl on a very instinctive level, thus planning which toy (or tool) to use is simply not part of the picture. When it is, or when that sort of conversation would be beneficial to me, I certainly will know where to come to get that reference.

Be well,

Gear

[leah06]

Still don't understand this. If people are speaking to you in a way you don't like, why talk to them? If they are speaking to others in a way you don't like, why listen?

In either case, I just can't see telling other people how to interact with their own property. If you wouldn't let your own sub address other Doms that way, then don't let her. That's why she's YOUR property.

[Masters_kitty]

If I may speak here...

Personally, I do not participate in chat. I am happily collared, and find most chat merely makes me uncomfortable, so I avoid it. However, I can speak as to my general experience and rules on the internet.

I am a submissive. I am not YOUR submissive. I will treat Y/you (this is a general you, not a pointed post at one person) with as much respect as I feel you deserve from me. If you treat me with no respect and like I should simply bow down and kiss your shoes, you will get nothing but disdain for me.

My Master has trained me to be polite and respectful, but I do not bow to any commands but his. I will respect the Dom/mes that I meet, but will not perform any tasks they ask of me, as it is not their place. So, any attempt to "punish me" for my mouth will be pointless. You could consider that hiding behind my collar, I suppose, but for me it is a matter of following my Master's rules. I am submissive and slave to him and none other.

I believe the difference between the real community and the online community is that, yes, there is less policing by doms of their subs' behavior. In a real community environment, I would be two steps behind my Master at all times, and any misbehavior on my part would merit punishment. In the online community, he looks over my shoulder from time to time, but doesn't feel the need to make sure I am being on perfect behavior. Many of the subs on this site probably have little or no supervision from their Masters/Mistresses/PYL. Thus, they can act how they wish to act, with no consequences. However, I don't think it is the place of the other Dom/mes to be punishing the behavior of subs not their own, especially with no explicit permission from the sub's Dom/me. I can tell you personally that my Master would kick the ass of any Master/Mistress/etc who tried to punish me without his permission, and I have been told not to obey any orders that he hasn't approved.

A responsibility? Yes. Each submissive is responsible for his or her own actions. The Dom/mes are in some part responsible for the actions of their submissive(s). Responsible for the actions of other submissives they don't know or have trained? I think not.