Education... where is it these days?

[The Lord Winter]

I sit here contemplating how much I have enjoyed being here at the Library. It's one of the few communities that you can find for BDSM where you actually have such an outlet without paying money to get into the forums. The more I consider what we have here, the more I can't help but feel that something is lacking in an already great environment. That something is true education. One could say that since I have found a mentor for myself, that I should be happy with that. As a Dom, I cannot be satisfied at simply finding my own mentor. There are too many people coming into our lifestyle on a daily basis to content myself with my own selfish needs. It is and, will be to a greater degree once I am properly experienced in R/T, to make certain that I aid young Doms and subs in their growth.

For all that I have found here, in the people and in the information present, I find that the mentality by which a lot of ideas are expressed is one of "sink or swim". That just does not work. How can we educate others who are coming into the lifestyle, a lifestyle that may be completely alien to them, by throwing the most profound concepts at the youngsters all at once. We often leave them more confused than when they started.

How can we be satisfied explaining simply that there is a difference between a submissive and a slave, and leave it at that? How can we be satisfied with simply going off on a young Dom who is playing "cock of the walk" as my mentor is fond of saying, and not setting him straight on the responsibilities of being a Dominant. How can we tell a submissive that their responsibility is to obey, without educating them in the fact that they have a right to have their needs met as well?

The problem here is that the effort is not being made. The forums would not be so prolific were it the case. No, the effort IS being made, but it is misguided. We don't step into a Physics class without first being availed of the knowledge of Basic Math and Algebra, do we? Swimmers are not taught to do so by simply throwing them into the deep end and saying "swim or drown". We must take a more thorough approach here, and we must do so soon. It is time to introduce the newcomers to the basics FIRST, before we throw them into the deeper waters. We in the online community are being watched by the true Old-Schoolers out there, and as such, if we want their participation, we cannot allow ourselves to be found wanting or we will remain alone. Alone and without the guidance of the people who laid the foundation of the lifestyle we enjoy today.

To further this, in our lack of competent education in the lifestyle, we leave ourselves open to those who would crusade against our right to practice this lifestyle by branding us as sexual deviants who's practices should be outlawed forthwith.

I, for one, do not intend to stand idly by and watch opportunities pass, and see our rights further taken away through adding fuel to the fire. Brothers, Sisters, and submissives, what will you do?

[thepast]

I would agree.

The notion of "pay it forward" somehow has gotten lost as Lifestyle has moved strictly from real life into an online world as well, and the lines between the two have begun to get fuzzier. No longer is it the case, as it once was predominately in the Old School culture, that Doms and subs are both mentored, or that there is a general spirit of "paying it forward" with the knowledge you learned and gained from others and through your experiences.

Now, it is generally all about either "me me me me meeeeee" or "I want it NOW!" --both attitudes which have only proliferated through the 'nets. Partially, it's just the general shift in human culture and societies, as we move into a more technological age, and people are attached to their iPhones or Blackberrys, and want everything at their fingertips. Part of it also is that the younger generation (admittedly, partially my generation) has this bizarre feeling of "entitlement" in general, and for some reason doesn't have a real feeling of needing to work towards a goal, or something they want. Now, granted, these are very large generalities, and many people are exceptions to the rule, but the trends are clear: the tides have shifted.

I have been on this site for almost five years now, and I can say this for sure: all sites are similar, in that you only get back as much as you put into it. As Admins, Torq and I are striving to develop this site into a place where people feel like they are members of a community and can exchange information and ideas. However, it only works as well as people make it work--everyone has to put forth some effort by sharing their information and knowledge. That can be a hard request to make of people who often find themselves jaded after many bad online experiences, or many poor experiences elsewhere on other sites. Additionally, it's often hard to push oneself to share and mentor others when people seem a tad... "flighty"... in their commitment to learning. As such, we've worked to make a lot of areas that people can do a lot of self-discovery: The Tasking Society, A-Z, the Q & A sections, the Womb. And we're always open to other ideas people have to improve both the site & the community here.

I understand the reluctance of those who are more "experienced" to participate in the Forums discussions or in chat sometimes because they may perceive newbies to be "naive" or "crazy." But I also would appeal to folks' memories: remember, you too were new once... and you too sought out a safe place to find information. Not ALL information you find is useful, beneficial, or good. True. But that's part of the process: you intake the information that's useful, sift out the garbage, and put the little kernals of knowledge into your knapsack for a later use.

As for the personals & seeking mates... well... like anywhere in the world, I would say this: people are always seeking other people. You aren't ever going to find an online or real life community of completely "hooked up" couples. But I urge EVERYONE to make sure that they continue on their journey of self-discovery as well as looking for a mate. It is extremely important to find yourself, and your place and role in Lifestyle, and know who you are, just as much as it's important to find a partner. And, for those still seeking a partner... never give up. You never know when or where you will find a partner. It often isn't a matter of spamming 1000 people. It's a matter of a deliberative, patient, long term search. Some are luckier than others and find their partner quickly. But don't give up--the right match for you is out there--hang in there.

Above all else, I urge EVERYONE to continue to learn, grow, and enjoy the journey they find themselves on. Far too often, people think they "have learned it all" and end up stagnant and bored. Don't be like that. If you are bored and looking for something, approach an Admin (Torq or I)--there's always a way for folks to help out on the site--we can always use help in some way. Giving back to the community here is always a good way to "pay it forward," and often is a good way for those who can't give back in r/l.

Again, great post, TLW. I hope everyone thinks it over.

[The Jaded Dominant { koral }]

Excellent post B.
I am going to be very interested in the replies that come filtering back this way. This subject has come up in the room several times and has been the cause of many many "books" coming out from my general direction and my replies have never been very well recieved. You and I have talked on this for hours on end and now you have "put it out there"
Instead of a long post now. I think I will wait and see what comes down the pike before I let loose with a "book" Again excellent post. Very well written..
T..

[kalitat]

Thank you both for your opinions and thoughts. It is something that has really given me pause to look back at my own actions. Looking back, I do agree that brattiness has become a badge of honor and it's easy for me to get caught up in the "outdoing" of another or travel travel along in the mahem.
There is a line between silliness and regular humor.
I was going to say perhaps there should be more mentoring in the room for newbies. I would have appreciated that.
But then I look at MY personal responsibilities as a member of chat. As LW and delia have mentioned here are rules and guidelines, there are forums, there are so many outlet that are available for the people who WANT to learn. To say I didn't know shouldn't be an excuse. To say mentor me then shouldn't be an excuse. To say it's the admins job shouldn't be an excuse.
Echoing the posts before me, we are responsible for making chat what we want it to be, if that means stepping up and hurting some feelings then so be it. Yeah, it's gonna suck, I hate it when people are pissed at me. But I will step up and do my part for it to be a chat room I want to be a part of and that the room fun times is there for a reason.
Personally, I feel LW's words should referered to with the rules as they are just as important. Oops caught myself there, it is in the rules, the rule of respect.

[_ID_]

I think the notion of educating new people to BDSM is a noble notion, but one that presents more unsolvable problems than it can be possible fathom.

For instance, in the opening post the OP states that we can educate newbies on simple things like the difference between submissives and slaves. However even this one simple concept is fraught with differences in definition amongst life-stylers that results in no clear definition at all. That is unless you subscribe to the pigeon hole idea of a label for roles the majority believes in.

WTF? you might ask. Well some people have one definition for submissive, and a different definition for slave. Yet another person will say that the definition you give for submissive is their definition for slave. So you then enter into a problem of what definition to use, and if you try to give a newbie a definition they should use, you are condemning them to using your rules for their style of BDSM. As we all know BDSM is as individual to each person as are our fingerprints. All have similarities to call them fingerprints, but are all different. The same idea applies to BDSM. We all have our own style, but it is similar enough we can all call it BDSM.

So while the notion of educating newbies is a good idea, you must be able to restrict your enthusiasm for your own style to allow for their growth. Presenting principles to follow, rather than rules and boxes to be put in.

There are things we can educate on that isn't as in flux as definition of sub/slave. Things like flogging, caning, single tails. We can educate new people on what areas to hit and not hit, on what areas are okay to put a needle through, and what ones are not. We can educate on how to electrocute a person without killing them. Anything beyond those basic things are and should be restricted to foundation of ideas and principles, rather than rules.

[The Lord Winter]

I think the notion of educating new people to BDSM is a noble notion, but one that presents more unsolvable problems than it can be possible fathom.

I'm glad that you agree at least that the notion is noble, but if no one attempts it, how are we to maintain the barely accepted status of our lifestyle in the eyes of global society? Already, we are faced with laws that restrict BDSM in the printed word. Laws on the practice of BDSM are sure to follow.

For instance, in the opening post the OP states that we can educate newbies on simple things like the difference between submissives and slaves. However even this one simple concept is fraught with differences in definition amongst life-stylers that results in no clear definition at all. That is unless you subscribe to the pigeon hole idea of a label for roles the majority believes in.

WTF? you might ask. Well some people have one definition for submissive, and a different definition for slave. Yet another person will say that the definition you give for submissive is their definition for slave. So you then enter into a problem of what definition to use, and if you try to give a newbie a definition they should use, you are condemning them to using your rules for their style of BDSM. As we all know BDSM is as individual to each person as are our fingerprints. All have similarities to call them fingerprints, but are all different. The same idea applies to BDSM. We all have our own style, but it is similar enough we can all call it BDSM.

Well, my friend, the consequences of not pigeon-holing it are more severe than the consequences of doing so.

A submissive is someone who gives up control in a BDSM relationship with the expectation of being able to demand that her/his needs be met, he/she is also able to walk away from the relationship at any time, for any reason, collared or not. A submissive is also able to set limits. From a Dom's point of view, a sub is someone to be claimed, someone to be collared, but never truly owned.

A slave is someone who defines their pleasure through pleasing their master. His/her own needs are always secondary to the master's. This first part is from the perspective of a slave's mentality. From the eyes of a Master, the slave has no rights at all, is a piece of property to be used as the owner sees fit. They do not have the right to walk away, though they are perfectly welcome to beg for release, which may or may not be granted.

The consequences of not setting even this most basic of definitions are quite dire. They invite unscrupulous Doms to twist the definitions so that they may trick a new submissive into believing that he/she has no rights at all, and thus institute entrapment and abuse from a position of gross deception. I must disagree with you here, Dawg, the potential for harm is just too great to ignore.

As for issues of style, that is another matter of entirety. You speak of principles, what are these if not rules that a competent Dom should follow? How is a submissive to expect that she will be treated fairly, be kept safe while giving up power through trust, if her Dom's principles are not a hard and fast set of rules to which he holds himself accountable, and is held to account by his peers as well? Principles vary in their interpretation as well, and if we do not organize them into a set of standards we will fall prey to the old adage "You have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything".

I do agree with you, however, on your final point of educating people on proper application of techniques with the tools of our trade, however. There is a right and wrong way to swing a flogger, a whip, and just about any other impact instrument we use, and for safety's sake alone, educating others in the proper application of these tools should be paramount.

Well, time to pass the soapbox to someone else.

[Ozme52]

I agree with Dawg.

And frankly, the best one can do online, is either "own" a site and educate visitors in ones own ways, or as we do here, provide a site where everyone can provide their own perspectives and opinions and let the readers pick and chose whatever makes the most sense to them in their unique situations.

A few threads can be dedicated to tasking or writing and such, but they will (rightly) be the opinions and teachings of the few moderators in charge of those threads.

And while Lord Winter's desires may be laudable, how will you ever get consensus or alignment on a curriculum, even on the simplist of definitions.

No one throws new forum members into deep waters. They have plenty of opportunity to read first, to ask questions, and to do a little research. We individually and severally answer the questions posed as best we can, but we have zero ability to enforce our guidance on anyone. So how would a curriculum, assuming you could get agreement, change that? People will do what they wish to do regardless of any structural change.

Lastly, though you may think this site could be much improved in its educational qualities, I would point out the hundreds of dead sites that tried to teach their version of "the one way" or "the right way" and drove off their audiences. This site persists, perhaps because of its approach, to let people participate to the extent they wish, to opine freely, and to keep the conversations current.

[Ozme52]

A submissive is someone who gives up control in a BDSM relationship with the expectation of being able to demand that her/his needs be met, he/she is also able to walk away from the relationship at any time, for any reason, collared or not. A submissive is also able to set limits. From a Dom's point of view, a sub is someone to be claimed, someone to be collared, but never truly owned.

A slave is someone who defines their pleasure through pleasing their master. His/her own needs are always secondary to the master's. This first part is from the perspective of a slave's mentality. From the eyes of a Master, the slave has no rights at all, is a piece of property to be used as the owner sees fit. They do not have the right to walk away, though they are perfectly welcome to beg for release, which may or may not be granted.

Good examples...


of exactly why you'll never get consensus for a curriculum.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the membership would say that these definitions do not fit their own situations.

[Guera]

A slave is someone who defines their pleasure through pleasing their master.

It would be hard to find a submissive who would say they were not a slave, in this context.


if not rules that a competent Dom should follow? How is a submissive to expect that she will be treated fairly, be kept safe while giving up power through trust, if her Dom's principles are not a hard and fast set of rules to which he holds himself accountable, and is held to account by his peers as well?

That I agree with. But... there are two checks. One is the submissive, who ALWAYS has a choice about who to enter into a relationship with. One is the dominant, who (we all must hope) is not a worm.

The rest of us... Unless we are actually speaking of developing a system of vigilantism, all we can do is try to set a better example. (Which is all this board is, in the first place.)

[kalitat]

For clarity, my reply was not meant in general but was specific to my opinions of chatroom behavior.

[_ID_]

Well, my friend, the consequences of not pigeon-holing it are more severe than the consequences of doing so.

I disagree.

A submissive is someone who gives up control in a BDSM relationship with the expectation of being able to demand that her/his needs be met, he/she is also able to walk away from the relationship at any time, for any reason, collared or not. A submissive is also able to set limits. From a Dom's point of view, a sub is someone to be claimed, someone to be collared, but never truly owned.

A slave is someone who defines their pleasure through pleasing their master. His/her own needs are always secondary to the master's. This first part is from the perspective of a slave's mentality. From the eyes of a Master, the slave has no rights at all, is a piece of property to be used as the owner sees fit. They do not have the right to walk away, though they are perfectly welcome to beg for release, which may or may not be granted.

And therein lies the crux of the problem with your vision.

The entire lifestyle is based on consensuality. The moment you remove that you commit what is called false imprisonment or in some places kidnapping. Both slave and submissive must have the ability to leave a relationship should they desire. This single requirement invalidates your definition, and makes the definition of submissive and slave nearly impossible to define for everyone.

The better way to proceed would be to give someone who's new an idea of what a slave mindset might be based on, and what a submissive mindset might be based on. Then let them decide how they want to apply either or neither to their relationship.

For example, you did say that a slave derives pleasure out of serving their Master. This a submissive can also do. Derive pleasure out of serving their dominant. A foot rub, cleaning house in a maids outfit are two examples that can be done by either submissive or slave. It is the mindset while doing so, and the context in which it is done that makes the difference. Both are individual to the people involved, and so makes it impossible to define.

As for issues of style, that is another matter of entirety. You speak of principles, what are these if not rules that a competent Dom should follow? How is a submissive to expect that she will be treated fairly, be kept safe while giving up power through trust, if her Dom's principles are not a hard and fast set of rules to which he holds himself accountable, and is held to account by his peers as well? Principles vary in their interpretation as well, and if we do not organize them into a set of standards we will fall prey to the old adage "You have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything".

Principles are not rules, they are principles. Rules are laws, and save for the consensuality aspect of our lifestyle, there are no hard and fast rules or laws. So how is a sub to expect to be treated fairly you ask? By negotiating the conditions of their submission. Each person, bottom/submissive/slave, does this before entering into a relationship with a Top/Dominant/Master. How else would you be able to come to an agreement of what safe words to use, what things are limits, both hard and soft? Once those conditions have been agreed upon, the person submitting, be it a single scene or a 24/7 relationship, has the expectation that the Top/Dominant/Master will respect those boundaries. Not doing so removes the consensuality aspect I mentioned earlier, and becomes abuse. People who are abusive have no business in BDSM, nor any relationship for that matter.

I do agree with you, however, on your final point of educating people on proper application of techniques with the tools of our trade, however. There is a right and wrong way to swing a flogger, a whip, and just about any other impact instrument we use, and for safety's sake alone, educating others in the proper application of these tools should be paramount.

There are multiple ways to swing a flogger. The key is knowing what areas not to hit, and how to prevent serious injury. There are multiple ways to use a cane, knowing how to prevent serious injury with it is the part we can pass on. Technique for either is something we can show, and let the person learning decide for themselves if that is the technique they wish to use. So is it windmill or Florentine for swinging a flogger, wrap-arounds or not when striking the body? Some people want the wrap-arounds, some don't. Some people can't do windmill, some can't do Florentine, so give both, and let them decide. Again principles of technique, rules of consensuality and what areas of the body to avoid are things we teach, the rest is up to them to define for themselves.

[angelic.zest]

Personally i for one have alot of growing, alot of learning to do, and I intend on doing that in real life situation as well as reading as much as i can online and in books. Sometimes Its hard to find someone to actually mentor you, one who would set aside their judgement and take the time out to sit with you, talk with you and make sure you understand everything that goes on. As i said i have alot of learning to do, and I started out online, playing around, joshing around with most of the people in the chat room. But I have been in relationships before being with someone isnt new to me. But being with someone who i put on a slightly higher level is new for me and actually learning that its ok for me to let go, and be submissive, to be the submissive i would want to be for him will take time. I had my go at it a few months/weeks ago, it didnt work but that doesnt mean that I am not submissive, just means that I wasnt the right submissive for him. That also doesnt mean that he wasnt dominant enough just that he wasnt the dominant for me.
I would always ask him questions and he would volunteer information and thats one of the things i loved about him was that he was like a walking human book. I truely did enjoy that, now that I am on my own again and I have to go out and find someone that mashes with me, someone who will take the time to guide me, to make sure that I am getting the information that i need to make an informed decision on rather he is the dominant for me. I truely do think having a mentor is a great thing, and I try my best to speak with as many submissives as i can when i can but work and now going back to school will make my time even more limited. But that doesnt mean i cant find the right aveunes to learn. Yes being online makes getting information alot easier, I found out alot about the thoughts, the feelings and all my perves desires from being online. I also found out about munches, about play parties, and actually being with a domainant and not have two computer screens between us. lol
Education is the key, the venues are there. There books, theres attending classes as well as getting out there getting your feet wet. a person can go and take up rigging, submissive objective classes as well as a domainant can go and take a class on being a better dominant for their submissive. Its just up to the person and since you stated that you are getting mentored and you will make it your point to go out and educate people on the lifestyle (shortening your words lol). Its just up to the person to want to go out and get educated and get the neccassary information. Its out there, books, people, etc..

A very interesting quote i found and try to remind myself of everytime i have to pay my student loan bills..."If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. ~ Andy McIntyre and Derek Bok"

It cost so much more to be uneducated, and that goes for all forms of education!



edit...I am sleepy so if it doesnt make sense dont blame me LOl..blame my job! :/

[angelic.zest]

Oh and to add about "paying money" there are shit loads of forums out there where you do have to pay, they are always popping up, as we found out a few months ago. Anyway, if you go out to events you pay, play parties you pay, rigging classes most times you pay. Not alot but you have to pay to get that information that person is trying to teach you. Sadly, everyone is trying to make a dollar and its just the way things are right now. Personally, I want to be one of the few female riggers out there that get paid to tie people up. How do i intend on becoming an accomplish rigger? By attending classes, getting personal instructional classes, most of those classes you have to pay. I will have to find me a rigging bottom but rigging sluts are a dime a dozen, so that wont be to hard. I just have to be proactive, get out from behind my computer screen and out there in the real world. I'll have to attend rope classes, munches, parties etc, just to get my name in the game and my skills up.

[epiphany]

The library has opened up many facets for me that I did not know existed and I can never repay the debt. The library has been beneficial to me in many ways. I arrived knowing absolutely zero about BDSM and at this point, several months later, the knowledge I have obtained is invaluable.
Lord Winter, I am sure you are asking,” Have you been given the correct information?”, my response: I listen, read and ask questions in the library. This does not mean that I will take what people say as fact. What I will do is research on my own and decide for myself what I believe is a good fit.
No one should ever take what any one person says as fact, as no one is infallible. This does not mean I do not appreciate the advice of others, I do. The library has opened up many facets for me that I did not know existed and I shall return the favor to others when it is asked of me to do so.

[The Lord Winter]

I disagree.



And therein lies the crux of the problem with your vision.

The entire lifestyle is based on consensuality. The moment you remove that you commit what is called false imprisonment or in some places kidnapping. Both slave and submissive must have the ability to leave a relationship should they desire. This single requirement invalidates your definition, and makes the definition of submissive and slave nearly impossible to define for everyone.

Actually, consent can be coerced, even forced. The entire lifestyle is based upon TRUST. The moment you remove that, you create resentment in your partner and they start looking for a way out of your control, and out of your life. The requirement of consensuality, while valid, is tagential to the point you make on slavery. A slave is, by definition, a piece of property. If you, as a Master or Mistress, do not make the slave feel owned, you are falling short in your duties, and will soon find yourself asked for the release of your charge. Ownership and possession are paramount to the mindset of a slave, and must be tended first and foremost in all aspect of the relationship... personal life included.

The better way to proceed would be to give someone who's new an idea of what a slave mindset might be based on, and what a submissive mindset might be based on. Then let them decide how they want to apply either or neither to their relationship.

For example, you did say that a slave derives pleasure out of serving their Master. This a submissive can also do. Derive pleasure out of serving their dominant. A foot rub, cleaning house in a maids outfit are two examples that can be done by either submissive or slave. It is the mindset while doing so, and the context in which it is done that makes the difference. Both are individual to the people involved, and so makes it impossible to define.

Well, to start with, you quoted me accurately with the website function, then misread my words. I said a slave DEFINES their pleasure through PLEASING their master. There is a fundamental difference here. One does not have to serve directly or even indirectly to please. It may be the master's pleasure to treat the slave as a complete pain toy, yet the slave has no particular affinity for pain, but enjoys being treated as such because it is pleasing to their master. You also neglected the rest of my definitions on submissives and slaves entirely. Slaves do not believe they have the right to set limits. It becomes the master's responsibility to uncover what is traumatic for the slave, what is neutral, and what is enjoyable. This is vastly different from a submissive, as the sub as the right to set limits from the beginning. Furthermore, the sub has the right to walk away from the relationship, collared or not, without question. The slave, while in the eyes of the law, does as well, if the Master or Mistress is doing their job correctly, then the slave will feel that they MUST beg for release or else remain until released.

Principles are not rules, they are principles. Rules are laws, and save for the consensuality aspect of our lifestyle, there are no hard and fast rules or laws. So how is a sub to expect to be treated fairly you ask? By negotiating the conditions of their submission. Each person, bottom/submissive/slave, does this before entering into a relationship with a Top/Dominant/Master. How else would you be able to come to an agreement of what safe words to use, what things are limits, both hard and soft? Once those conditions have been agreed upon, the person submitting, be it a single scene or a 24/7 relationship, has the expectation that the Top/Dominant/Master will respect those boundaries. Not doing so removes the consensuality aspect I mentioned earlier, and becomes abuse. People who are abusive have no business in BDSM, nor any relationship for that matter.

I could not disagree more with your use of semantics here. Principles are rules if nothing else, especially when they become personal principles. These principles serve as a guide to all aspects of the person involved. Rules are NOT laws. I have yet to visit a public pool where the rules were codified law, or any other public locale for that matter. I have already addressed the issue of consensuality versus trust in my previous paragraph, and will not resort to redundancy in order to drive that point further. Also, in my previous paragraph, I addressed the issues of limits and the slave versus sub mindset, though, I freely admit to agreeing with you on the negotiation. It is paramount to forging any BDSM relationship. However, once again, when dealing with a slave, it becomes the Master's responsibility to discover what is traumatic for the slave, as the slave will not likely be willing to set limits upon the Master if the person sees the Master as someone suitable to meet their needs.

There are multiple ways to swing a flogger. The key is knowing what areas not to hit, and how to prevent serious injury. There are multiple ways to use a cane, knowing how to prevent serious injury with it is the part we can pass on. Technique for either is something we can show, and let the person learning decide for themselves if that is the technique they wish to use. So is it windmill or Florentine for swinging a flogger, wrap-arounds or not when striking the body? Some people want the wrap-arounds, some don't. Some people can't do windmill, some can't do Florentine, so give both, and let them decide. Again principles of technique, rules of consensuality and what areas of the body to avoid are things we teach, the rest is up to them to define for themselves.

While I agree that there are multiple safe ways to swing a flogger, and also to use many of the tools of our trade, I must call you to task on the issue of wraparound. Wraparound is a result of a poor aim. How can you defend something so obviously a result of poor technique, when you spoke just a few sentences before that to the importance of preventing serious injury. If one cannot properly hit where one is aiming, how is it that injury is to be avoided?

[The Lord Winter]

To those of you who understand the points to which I am referring, and support those points with your words, thank you, you have not been overlooked.

[fetishdj]

I personally would love there to be a centralised, standardised system of training for both subs and Dom/mes; especially if it involved some form of recognition. Main reason I would like to see this is safety. Being able to instruct members of the lifestyle in the basics and send them out into the world with knowledge of safety, good practise and so on would solve a lot of problems and save many people the dangers inherent in the lifestyle. Just like tradesmen (like builders) get particular qualifications which allow them to state that they are members of a particular organisation which is dedicated to quality, I feel that Dominants and subs should be able to go through a basic course and come out of it not only confident in the skills and safety issues they need to have awareness of but also some form of professional membership thing - a badge, initials after their name, a membership number etc - which they can show to potential partners which shows they have done this training. More to the point, like professional tradespeople (and also medical and legal professionals) any trangressions can be reported to the body and may mean losing membership.

However, the problem here (apart from the difficulties in organising BDSMers and varous legal and financial hurdles) is the need for a consistant and universal curriculum. As stated earlier, everyone has thier own ideas about what the lifestyle is all about - old school, leather guard, Gor, fetishists, net newbies and so on. Getting a concensus between all of them is likely to be a nightmare and that is not taking into account the various differing interpretations within each group. Forget the definitions of a sub/slave for the moment and think about etiquette... some groups consider that ANY sub or slave should be subservient to ANY Dominant while others see it that you only serve the one Dom/me who you are pledged to serve. Some couples consider it important that the sub asks permission before even interacting with another person even in a vanilla context (never mind playing with them) whereas others consider it important that their sub learns as much as possible by talking to other subs and/or does not care if they talk to others about vanilla things. This is the fundamental problem with the old 'student/mentor' system as any preferences/prejudices the mentor has are invariably passed onto the student.

The forums allow a more organic, less formal system of education. Ok, it is inefficient and flawed in many ways but then no system is perfect. I know I have repeated the same reply to the same question in many different threads, for example. However, it allows those who do not know something to learn by getting many different opinions and ideas. The trick, and the thing which may well need to be taught, is critical analysis of the information - taking all the information you are given, assessing it, applying evidence stringency tests and working out what is worth paying attention to and what is worth ignoring. Everyone, no matter how experienced, can be wrong about something and so having lots of people inputting into a discussion allows a greater chance of isolating the rubbish and spotting the gems of truth.

So, if you want to ensure that certain basics are taught, the best way is to use the forums - maybe post some information you feel is essential in the BDSM 101 forum and have it filtered through the rest of the members and maybe added to a few times - allowing you to post more and more refined versions as time goes on.

[_ID_]

Actually, consent can be coerced, even forced. The entire lifestyle is based upon TRUST. The moment you remove that, you create resentment in your partner and they start looking for a way out of your control, and out of your life. The requirement of consensuality, while valid, is tagential to the point you make on slavery. A slave is, by definition, a piece of property. If you, as a Master or Mistress, do not make the slave feel owned, you are falling short in your duties, and will soon find yourself asked for the release of your charge. Ownership and possession are paramount to the mindset of a slave, and must be tended first and foremost in all aspect of the relationship... personal life included.

No, when ANYTHING is forced it ceases to be consensual. This again is the crux of the fault with your thinking. Until you understand that, you will not come to understand how people can define the same words and ideas so very differently.

Well, to start with, you quoted me accurately with the website function, then misread my words. I said a slave DEFINES their pleasure through PLEASING their master. There is a fundamental difference here. One does not have to serve directly or even indirectly to please. It may be the master's pleasure to treat the slave as a complete pain toy, yet the slave has no particular affinity for pain, but enjoys being treated as such because it is pleasing to their master. You also neglected the rest of my definitions on submissives and slaves entirely. Slaves do not believe they have the right to set limits. It becomes the master's responsibility to uncover what is traumatic for the slave, what is neutral, and what is enjoyable. This is vastly different from a submissive, as the sub as the right to set limits from the beginning. Furthermore, the sub has the right to walk away from the relationship, collared or not, without question. The slave, while in the eyes of the law, does as well, if the Master or Mistress is doing their job correctly, then the slave will feel that they MUST beg for release or else remain until released.

That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning.

I could not disagree more with your use of semantics here. Principles are rules if nothing else, especially when they become personal principles. These principles serve as a guide to all aspects of the person involved. Rules are NOT laws. I have yet to visit a public pool where the rules were codified law, or any other public locale for that matter. I have already addressed the issue of consensuality versus trust in my previous paragraph, and will not resort to redundancy in order to drive that point further. Also, in my previous paragraph, I addressed the issues of limits and the slave versus sub mindset, though, I freely admit to agreeing with you on the negotiation. It is paramount to forging any BDSM relationship. However, once again, when dealing with a slave, it becomes the Master's responsibility to discover what is traumatic for the slave, as the slave will not likely be willing to set limits upon the Master if the person sees the Master as someone suitable to meet their needs.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. We see things differently, and that's my point.

While I agree that there are multiple safe ways to swing a flogger, and also to use many of the tools of our trade, I must call you to task on the issue of wraparound. Wraparound is a result of a poor aim. How can you defend something so obviously a result of poor technique, when you spoke just a few sentences before that to the importance of preventing serious injury. If one cannot properly hit where one is aiming, how is it that injury is to be avoided?

Like I said, some people want the wrap around.

[kalitat]

IDCrewDawg: "That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning."


So LW's opinions are to be faulted because they do not match yours? They may not match mine either but to me, that does not make them faulted, only different. In this case there is no "right" and "wrong". That in and of itself is the beauty of a relationship as they are all unique and dependent many factors.

[kalitat]

I was going to say perhaps there should be more mentoring in the room for newbies. I would have appreciated that.
But then I look at MY personal responsibilities as a member of chat. As LW and delia have mentioned here are rules and guidelines, there are forums, there are so many outlet that are available for the people who WANT to learn. To say I didn't know shouldn't be an excuse. To say mentor me then shouldn't be an excuse. To say it's the admins job shouldn't be an excuse.
Echoing the posts before me, we are responsible ....
.

This statement was originally in reference to chat only. The more I read through the following responses the more I believe it should have been refered to the library in general. Yes mentoring would be helpful, but as has been stated there is no standard and there will not be an agreement on a standard.
My original point was of self responsibility. In that those who truly want to learn have the resources available. It is a newbies responsibility to separate the chaff from the grain and decide for ourselves our personal standards.

[asiangirl]

Thank you for creating the thread. Debate like this is very educational to me personally.

[fetishdj]

IDCrewDawg: "That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning."


So LW's opinions are to be faulted because they do not match yours? They may not match mine either but to me, that does not make them faulted, only different. In this case there is no "right" and "wrong". That in and of itself is the beauty of a relationship as they are all unique and dependent many factors.

I think the point he is trying to make is not that anyones' opinions are faulty but rather that they are merely that - opinions. I think he is trying to say that any one person's opinions on any aspect of BDSM cannot be taken as definitive because there is no 'one true way'. Everyones' opinions are valid because BDSM as a lifestyle is not something like a science where there are hard and fast answers to every question (and even in science there are no hard and fast answers, there is always differing opinions and debate) but a community of people with different backgrounds, experiences and opinions whose only common ground, in many cases, is adherence to this lifestyle.

[kalitat]

That is the point I was trying to make, but worded much more eloquently. Thank you.

[Guera]

A name does not define what something is. This extends to concepts, ideas, opinions, attitudes, syndromes, titles... Trying to attach words to things, beyond superficial labeling, is an inexact science, or maybe more of an art.

A quote

From Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, 1594:

JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.


just a thought.

[Ozme52]

IDCrewDawg: "That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning."


So LW's opinions are to be faulted because they do not match yours? They may not match mine either but to me, that does not make them faulted, only different. In this case there is no "right" and "wrong". That in and of itself is the beauty of a relationship as they are all unique and dependent many factors.

The fault, imo, is that LW faults all of us first for not agreeing with his opinion. Your logic is fallacious because the order of posting lends no priority to who is opining and who is claiming fault. LW gives us a "hard and fast" set of definitions and defends them as correct. That means he espouses them as truth, not opionion, and that means Dawg's statement of fault is in fact, correct. Now I personally don't agree with much that Dawg espouses, but there is rarely an arguement because he is clearly professing his opinions and not proposing a set of truths to be universally adopted.

My very first arguments with Sir Russell and others, (mostly resolved now) all revolve around their offering up such definitions and professing them as absolute and irrefutable... all of which left me "outside" of the lifestyle.

First come the titles and labels, next come your kinks. What will happen if someone says your particular kink (whatever it might be) is out of bounds, too dangerous, or not to be "permitted" by good kinksters everywhere... because invariably, that comes next.

[Ozme52]

This statement was originally in reference to chat only. The more I read through the following responses the more I believe it should have been refered to the library in general. Yes mentoring would be helpful, but as has been stated there is no standard and there will not be an agreement on a standard.
My original point was of self responsibility. In that those who truly want to learn have the resources available. It is a newbies responsibility to separate the chaff from the grain and decide for ourselves our personal standards.

That's right. You too would rail and complain (or just leave) if you were bound by a set of rules you didn't like. I remember, elsewhere, where a newbie couldn't participate in chat conversations until they had been a member and online, for a certain number of tens of hours. Another where newbies were only allowed in certain rooms. And another where experienced doms were kept separated from the new subs while the chatroom owners did their own "winnowing of the chaff".

[kalitat]

That's right. You too would rail and complain (or just leave) if you were bound by a set of rules you didn't like. I remember, elsewhere, where a newbie couldn't participate in chat conversations until they had been a member and online, for a certain number of tens of hours. .

No I wouldn't, I would consider it training.

[Ozme52]

Thank you for creating the thread. Debate like this is very educational to me personally.

But probably wouldn't be allowed in a system that was trying to teach a set of standards.

I remember a bicycle forum where the owner wouldn't let you discuss any topic that he felt undermined his control or reputation... even factual things such as how to set a bike computer because it smacked of attacking his speed claims.

We're lucky to have an open forum here. I will forever argue against teaching standardized definitions. Anyone who wishes to do so should start a private club dedicated to their own ideals. Many do so. Many find safe haven in such places too. A fine idea which I approve of. It's just not a good idea here... in my opinion.

[Ozme52]

I think the point he is trying to make is not that anyones' opinions are faulty but rather that they are merely that - opinions. I think he is trying to say that any one person's opinions on any aspect of BDSM cannot be taken as definitive because there is no 'one true way'. Everyones' opinions are valid because BDSM as a lifestyle is not something like a science where there are hard and fast answers to every question (and even in science there are no hard and fast answers, there is always differing opinions and debate) but a community of people with different backgrounds, experiences and opinions whose only common ground, in many cases, is adherence to this lifestyle.

Right.

[Ozme52]

No I wouldn't, I would consider it training.

Not to quibble, but I must... lol, even trainees mostly 'do" rather than mostly watch.