Religion and M/s relasionship

[13'sbadkitty]

Well, you go right on thanking your god, then, and I'll go right on congratulating you for your work.


But that's just it! Love is an emotional response, brought about by hormones and our own minds. If you wish to think of that as spiritual then go right ahead. To me, though, spiritual implies something from beyond the body, from beyond the natural. It is by definition supernatural. I have never witnessed or experienced anything supernatural. At best, I may have experienced something for which I may not have had an explanation at the time. That makes it unknown, not supernatural.

You know what? There are just too many things out there that can't be explained in scientific terms or that science hasn't been able to solve. While I very much appreciate the congrats for staying clean, I do put a dramatic amount of work into it. The work goes into helping others in large part as you have said way above, but also into clearing away closed mindedness, resentments and fear through a relationship with God as I understand him...could totally be anything at all and I guess if science can come in between someone and a drink or a drug then cool! I am so pleased that I have a hgher power that is more comforting to me than that, but thats what I need.

[Thorne]

You know what? There are just too many things out there that can't be explained in scientific terms or that science hasn't been able to solve.

Hasn't been able to solve YET. Science keeps on working, learning, evolving. Is it possible to learn everything about everything? I doubt it very much. There's just too much universe out there, too much time that has passed, too many barriers in the way.

But that doesn't mean we must decide that anything we don't know must be because of God. And even if it WERE caused by a god, how could we know that it was YOUR god, your particular definition of a supernatural being? We cannot. It can only be taken on faith, without evidence. I don't have that faith. I need evidence. And given the lack of evidence, despite the efforts of believers since the dawn of religions, I am comfortable in saying that there are probably no gods.

I am so pleased that I have a hgher power that is more comforting to me than that, but thats what I need.

And I am happy that you have that faith to sustain you. I would not try to take that from you. All I'm saying is that you need to give yourself more credit than you seem to want to do.

[CuddleDom]

A miracle, by definition, is something which has no explanation. It's something which defies nature, as we understand it. Naturally, something which is statistically inevitable cannot be a miracle. It will happen, eventually. But something which has a very low probability is not a miracle either. While it may not happen for a very long time, it's still likely that it will happen, eventually. 100 people dying in a plane crash is obviously not a miracle. One person surviving that same crash is improbable, but not impossible. Still not a miracle. Even 100 people surviving, while highly unlikely, is not impossible (see: "Miracle" on the Hudson). Thus, not a miracle.

The term "miracle" is used far too often in the media to explain occurrences which are unlikely but which do not defy natural law. By definition, a miracle must be supernatural, must defy natural laws. But we must also be aware of Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

mir·a·cle   
[mir-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
–noun
1.an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of god.
3.a wonder; marvel.
4.a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

It is the third definition I am refering too.

as you say the term miracle is often used by the media to describe occurences that are unlikely. Hence why the 3rd definition is more common these days than the 1st.

I agree with Clarke's Law. Which is one of reasons why such things as magic and miracles are subjective by their very nature.

[Thorne]

It is the third definition I am refering too.

Yeah, and I've used that definition myself. But when you see people use the term 'miracle' in reference to an image of Elvis on a burnt piece or toast, or the face of Jesus in a plate of spaghetti, or condensation on a statue of Mary, they are generally referring to the first two definitions, usually because they don't understand what they are seeing and WANT to attribute it to supernatural sources. Basically, anything they don't understand must be a miracle or caused by God. I try to be just a little less gullible.

[CuddleDom]

Isn't it human nature to seek patterns? Like seeking images in clouds.

As for the causality, once again I put it down to that feeling of awe. If it is something important to a person whether it be Jesus or Elvis, then they will attribute it to their higher power. While if it does not cause that awe like seeing a horse in the clouds then it is just a whimsical experience.

[Thorne]

Isn't it human nature to seek patterns? Like seeking images in clouds.

Yes, it it. It's wired into our brains. That's one of the reason's why emoticons convey so much information: we see and recognize not only faces but even emotions in just a couple of well-placed punctuation marks.

As for the causality, once again I put it down to that feeling of awe. If it is something important to a person whether it be Jesus or Elvis, then they will attribute it to their higher power. While if it does not cause that awe like seeing a horse in the clouds then it is just a whimsical experience.

And this is precisely why we have to be able to understand why we see what we see. Just because seeing an image of Jesus in a swirl of pizza sauce might have some meaning for you does not make it any less whimsical than seeing that horse in the clouds.