Gor & largely the Gorean Lifestyle.

[Guest 91108]

OK, I shall start out my tenure as A-Z BDSM with a topic that I am looking into myself.
Perhaps we shall all learn and grow with the input of posted information.

Many places I have read on the net have mentioned Gorean Life or Gorean BDSM.
I became very interested to learn more.
Sadly, I found that many of the sites I found while seeking information were of the more opinionated individuals.
I wished to learn some of the life without the Game aspects of it that I learned really took away from it some.

I think that there is a need within BDSM to understand the whole slave concept.
I am of the opinion that it is a matter of unteaching our societies view of the idea of slave and covert it something entirely different...
I think the Gorean lifestyle is useful in teaching that.

So I introduce this thread.. I shall start it slow and keep in putting information and links

So a General information kickstarter.

Please hop in and add what you can....

Gor, the Counter-Earth, is the alternate-world setting for John Norman's "Chronicles of Gor," a series of 26 novels that combine philosophy, erotica and science fiction.

The customs, terminology and imagery depicted in these books has inspired a related BDSM-influenced subculture. On- and off-line followers of this lifestyle are called Goreans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorean

Gorean From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the most general use of the word, Gorean means anything characteristic of the Gor science fiction novels by John Norman. In these novels, the word "Gorean" is used to refer to the fictional counter-earth, to its inhabitants and social customs, and to the particular language which is the most widely-spoken lingua franca in the known inhabited regions of Gor (though other languages are also spoken on the planet).
As applied to non-fictional individuals, the word Gorean means an adherent of the philosophies espoused in Norman's writings, especially someone who lives a lifestyle based on this philosophy. While the most conspicuous Gorean departure from mainstream modern norms is that Goreans allow and indeed promote sexual master/slave relationships, many who take the Gorean worldview seriously would insist that being Gorean is not necessarily about either sex or slavery, but about the general Gorean philosophy (so that one would not have to participate in a master/slave lifestyle or relationship in order to be Gorean). Some of this philosophy is concerned with "natural order" and the relations between men and women, which may or may not take the form of a master-and-slave dynamic. Where there is a master/slave relationship, the level at which adherents follow the books varies.
…

Some in BDSM consider the Gorean lifestyle to be a subset of BDSM practices, and find it lacking in that regard. So the mainstream of BDSM practitioners often disdain Goreans because Goreans allegedly reject the ideas of "safe, sane and consensual"/"risk-aware consensual kink", because of the frequent lack of a safe word between Gorean master and slave, or because the almost exclusive male dominant/female submissive dynamic seems to imply that "your kink is not OK" regarding other practices. A reading of the Gorean novels indicates that the author regards other practices, such as female dominance/male submission or homosexuality, as "perversions" of the "natural order".
Serious Goreans, on the other hand, generally deny that they are engaging in "games" or "role-playing", and do not consider the extreme pain or extreme physical or sexual play sometimes practiced in BDSM as part of being Gorean, so that BDSM precautions and BDSM distinctions between "in scene" and "out of scene" are largely unnecessary and irrelevant (though there is still a need for honest communication within a Gorean relationship, as in any other sustained intimate relationship). They do not consider most of what they do to be BDSM, and do not judge themselves according to BDSM standards.

A person living the Gorean lifestyle states that "...BDSM and it's practitioners do as they do in order to fulfill a sexual need or 'kink' in themselves. They are different from Goreans and the lifestyle in that to be Gorean does not just encompass the sexual side of a person but everything else as well. Goreans live by and enforce 'codes of honour' and live by these codes.
Some Goreans do practice BDSM (even though BDSM is not Gorean in itself). These Goreans may or may not use a safeword when involved in BDSM scene play; however, if they do not, then some sort of communication is usually practiced.
Note that Norman's non-fictional sex manual Imaginative Sex presents a series of elaborate fantasy scenarios to be acted out (rather than advocating for a real-world "24/7" lifestyle), and recommends that symbolic substitutes (such as the sound of claps) should be used instead of actual physical chastisements (such as whippings). Most of the scenarios are maledom / femsub, but a few portray men as the slaves of women, and anticipate the eroticised first-person male slave narratives of some of the Gorean novels.
The Gorean identity is founded on home, job, and social order. The 'Three Pillars' of Gorean society are described as 'Homestone, Caste System, and Slavery', but they deserve a wider explanation.

The home is prime of importance to the Gorean, and this applies as much to the city-state of origin to the current residence or camp. 'A man's home in his castle' is translated in Gor to 'Every man is an Ubar within the circle of his sword.' (The Ubar is a war-leader, a General who takes power at a time of crisis, and whose rule is tantamount to tyrant until the crisis is resolved.) The Homestone is held sacred by every city and settlement, and is displayed under guard. Any praise or insult to a Homestone is taken personally by those who live in the city it symbolizes. The theft of a Homestone is the gravest crime, and paradoxically the most honorable enterprise, that any Warrior could undertake.

The Gorean's occupation is formed and informed by their caste. The Caste system establishes the Gorean identity as strongly as homeland. Because of the Gorean's work ethic and pride in caste, all castes are essentially equal. There is little social mobility because of this caste pride and identity; even the Peasant caste uphold their caste codes and firmly believe in their superiority to all other castes. But in actuality a few castes are more equal than the others. Those of High Caste, including Scribes, Warriors, Physicians, Builders and Initiates (holy men) have access to priviledged education and opportunities to leadership. The social order is further consolidated by social edict: "A man who refuses to practice his livelihood or strives to alter status without consent of the Council of High Castes is by definition an outlaw." A Gorean regards the welfare of their caste higher than their own, but in return, the caste provides welfare and charity when a caste member is in need.

The third pillar, 'Slavery'........

[TomOfSweden]

As far as I understand it, it's being a slave 100% where the slave has no rights what so ever. Not even to leave her Master if she gets tired of him. Since consent is a crucial part of BDSM I wouldn't call this BDSM at all. We've all made stupid decisions in life and not being able to break off from the relationship is bad.

[_ID_]

There used to be a Gor Fest in the Oklahoma area every year. I tried to Google it but came up empty. I will see if some people I know have more current information.

[Guest 91108]

I can see what you're saying TomofSweden.

hrm.. When I was first tried to understand the concept of being a slave within BDSM... it seems that many sites pointed towards the Goreans for some links.

While some could argue the linkage to BDSM or not .. this could be true for many things.

I brought it up as a topic to think on and discuss.
It beat gags and some others I considered.

All Things Have ideas which can be inspiring in other areas.

[Ironwulf]

I would highly recommend reading:

Chapter 3 - Gorean Philosophy
Chapter 4 - Gorean Slavery
Chapter 5 - Gor and Traditional BDSM

from the following link - http://www.dreamstrike.com/gorintro.html

It is very well written and while I do not agree with his reference to Earth slaves having the status of animals in Chapter 4 sections 3 and 4. I do recognize his right to see his slaves that way either on Earth or in his online Gorean world.

The problem with the Gorean as well as the BDSM community is that there are so many shades of gray in the style each and everyone of us practice what we believe to be "The Way". Even though I have been involved in both the BDSM and Gorean communities for over 30 years now I would not say that I have found either to represent completely what I personally believe the relationship with my slaves are. I do not believe the Gor books to be some kind of bible for D/s any more then the books of Jay Wiseman.

I believe we all have the right to find what works for each of us just as one must find their own way when it comes to religion. The Gorean way is not bad it is just a different way of approaching the same subject and if it works for you great, if only part of it works for you great.

I agree with a large part of the philosophy outlined in the Chapters noted above but as I also noted there are things I do not agree with. Such is life in the wonderful world of Dominance and submission.

[Guest 91108]

thanks ID for your post.

Ironwulf, that is how I view the topic too.
I shall look over the links later this morning , I have not seen those.
yes, we have to choose what is right, and what can work for us as well as know what won't or be ready to lay it aside if it proves harmful.
I like the mix I've settled upon and trying to work it within my husband/wife & Dom/sub relationships.

[Miraculix]

My opinion -to make it short- is that people often misunderstand what John Norman wrote; and the entire style grew out of proportions due to -mainly- the fact that the novels were first written in a time when emancipation (of women) was seen as something novel and -hence- was rejected by many polarized sides of society, specially in the US and western Europe.

True, slaves in the Gorean society are not allowed to leave their Master, the most they can do is ask him to give the slave away or sell him off but I have personally seen Gor Masters give "liberty" (ack, this word sounds so corny after the Gettysburg declaration) to their slaves.

On the other hand, notice that 99% of the slaves that are induced into the Gor lifestyle are women. This oughta tell you something. Gorean lifestyle does not streamline with other cultural waves of this time, such as gay, lesbian, hell! not even with the "smoking-is-not-cool-anymore" movement...

My educated guess is they will survive as a group, and they will -in a couple of centuries- be seen the way we look at Amish people today in New York and Pennsylvannia, albeit, with a pinch of kink and lots of sadistic flavor.

If you feel like venturing into the Gor society -which I do not encourage, but that is not saying I despise it, I simply base myself on a live-and-let-live philosophy, and you don't want to get too close to the fire or you want to stay safe at all times, you can always check out the Gor community in a popular roleplaying game called "Second Life". They have several communities there, I should say virtual communities; and they are pretty welcoming if you dont write "curious", "stereotyped ass" or "rebel without a cause" on your forehead.

Enjoy...

[Guest 91108]

I think my intent has been misconstrued. perhaps my presenting the thread was wrong.

I looked into the goream ideals as a slave limitations & explanation.

I shall post more on this when i have had time to think on it.

[Timberwolf]

I think basing a life philosophy around a *fantasy novel* is, at best, quiestionable.

That's as much as I feel like saying, for now.

[Ironwulf]

I think there is a whole lot of misconception going on in this thread. If I had not outed myself as having a gorean background I do not think anyone would have ever known I was one of those people who have based some of their lifestyle on parts of fantasy books. However to continue with that chain of thought would require moving this into the religion thread.

The gorean world online, which is how most people discover it, is full of wannabes, posers, and jerks just like is found in the online BDSM communities. It is not correct to assume that a gorean slave is owned for life with no chance to be free of a master she does not wish to serve. I know of no master in the gorean style that would hold any slave against her wishes to be set free from her service to him. I can not say the same for the real life BDSM world.

The basic premise of a gorean slave is that she is to be pleasing, and I can tell you that a unhappy slave is not very pleasing and she would be "released" from her collar as soon as the master realized this was not in his power to change.

Of course since goreans are manly men they will cover this failure by selling her off to another master who she thinks will offer her a better chance at being pleasing. Sorry, I was poking fun at the online chat rooms with that part.

I am not sure what the comments on sadistic goreans comes from unless as I said above it was from witnessing some wannabe etc. in a chat room somewhere, goreans are not sadists at all. That does not mean a girl will not be punished if she needs it, however a gorean slave can be punished in many ways and I find the whip to be the least used method for this task.

I take no pleasure from punishing a girl even though I admit to having a chuckle sometimes in the way they have handled the assigned punishment. Punishment is only given to aid a girls understanding just like a parent must disipline a child when they misbehave or do not follow the rules.

The difference is that the slave knew and agreed to the rules up front before she chose to beg for her collar.

Oh me, I was just going to jump in to say a few words and ended up writing another chapter in this book.

[Guest 91108]

I think your post is on target both time , Ironwulf.

seems I picked a good topic .. but put it in the wrong section perhaps.

[His_blizzard]

I think there is a whole lot of misconception going on in this thread. If I had not outed myself as having a gorean background I do not think anyone would have ever known I was one of those people who have based some of their lifestyle on parts of fantasy books. However to continue with that chain of thought would require moving this into the religion thread.
The basic premise of a gorean slave is that she is to be pleasing, and I can tell you that a unhappy slave is not very pleasing and she would be "released" from her collar as soon as the master realized this was not in his power to change.
I am not sure what the comments on sadistic goreans comes from unless as I said above it was from witnessing some wannabe etc. in a chat room somewhere, goreans are not sadists at all. That does not mean a girl will not be punished if she needs it, however a gorean slave can be punished in many ways and I find the whip to be the least used method for this task.
I take no pleasure from punishing a girl even though I admit to having a chuckle sometimes in the way they have handled the assigned punishment. Punishment is only given to aid a girls understanding just like a parent must disipline a child when they misbehave or do not follow the rules.
The difference is that the slave knew and agreed to the rules up front before she chose to beg for her collar.Oh me, I was just going to jump in to say a few words and ended up writing another chapter in this book.

Tal and THANK YOU Sir! I was getting hot under my"collar" reading some of the misconceptions I knew I would find by reading this thread until I saw your post. Again...THANK YOU! What you said is amost exactly what Dragon and I believe.
Master and I choose to live our D/s union using principles from the books. We actually joke and call ourselves "Gorean Lite" and he calls me his kajira-missive. I am not slave but not a free companion either. I am just more Gorean disciplined and trained than some subs from other schools of D/s and BDSM. I am so hoping that Master will come here and add to this thread.
Thank You as well, dear Wolfscout Sir, for giving us, the "other Goreans" a chance to tell our side. Like IronWulf, I also have had to face scorn and criticism when I come out of my Gorean closet. ~blizz!

[Guest 91108]

The sites that I have found on the more serious and workable people involved with the Gorean ideals... have all been much better adapted.

As for fantasy based life .. is BDSM lifestyle much more than making fantasy reality through the use of terminology and concepts?
When I came to this board .. I tended to think of the "out there Goreans" I had already run across as probably similiar to what I'd find here.
Yes , I explored them a little more than I explored BDSM at first. well for years I kept it on a low level interest.. then I came here and most know when the that was.

I like how more is spelled out in the Gorean ways.
Where as I can see where and how things with BDSM can go so wrongly.

It's a choice either way one wishes to go.
I was trying to show that things can be pulled from it to enhance other things.

Gosh.

[Ironwulf]

Thanks blizzard - "Gorean Lite" - I love it.

This is going great Wolfscout, I hope more people join in. Maybe people will read the words and say, ok I see where they are coming from. That will be a good thing for everyone. Worse case is people don't get involved and don't talk about the perceived differences.

I hope no one thinks I am attacking the BDSM community or any person by pointing out the misconceptions when they are posted. Because I am not. I walk my own path which happens to wander through both camps so I do see both sides and have found many things from both sides to take with me on my journey. I hope everyone will do the same.

[Guest 91108]

I have finished reading the link Ironwulf posted in entirety.

Wish I had found that instead of the bunch of scattered and arguing sites that I did find.

My take on it is pulling out information about slaves and how they interact. This is much more finely detailed there.

[tessa]

I know nothing about the Gorean books, lifestyle or mindset. Admittedly, I know little more about the BDsM lifestyle. What I do know and have very strong opinions about is that as responsible, mature, law-abiding (except for laws on sodomy...just can't abide by those) citizens, we all have the right to conduct our lives as we so decide. If the people involved are in agreement with what is going on and are happy doing it, then so be it. And especially in a community such as this, no one should ever feel as if some part of who they happen to be needs to be kept a secret for fear of discrimination in any form! I guess this post's motivation comes from the the comment blizz made about coming "out of the Gorean closet" and facing "scorn and criticism" while doing it...struck a raw nerve, I suppose. I mean no offense with my words. Just hoping that in a world so filled with intolerance and hatred, none of that evil will seep in here as well.

To add...Google "real life Gorean perspective". You can sift through the links and read whatever you like. I visited a few different sites and found out a bit more about this unknown-to-me subject.

[Widget]

The Gorean books were one of the first books I had read with an open BDSM theme. I remember being shocked that they were even in the library and I was about 12 at the time. I don't THINK it warped me too badly *snickers*

I find it rather amusing though that there is a whole sub culture of rules based off a book. It is an interesting read and it had some very in my opinion caricature of roles. Idealised men who were mens men, women who are beautiful and craved to obey and if they do have a will of their own they only want a strong dom to rule them. What happens to the old and not so pretty in that world...

I am not disrespecting anyone’s way of validate their lifestyle nor their choice of rites to formalize their choices. I have noticed that many people who claim to follow the Gorean roles can be rather ridged and judgmental towards others who choose to create their own rules and roles.

[Ironwulf]

What happens to the old and not so pretty in that world...

I must admit that it has been awhile since I have read my books and I can not answer your questions as to what happens when goreans get old, if they do, or for that matter where are the children in the books. However I am sure there are many out there that can answer those questions by quoting passages from one of the books.

I find it rather amusing though that there is a whole sub culture of rules based off a book.

Actually it is based off a whole series of books just like the Bible.

The Bible, the Koran, the Torah, etc. are used by many cultures around the world today. Yes, to those outside the influence of the culture that uses the books as a basis for its lifestyle it can appear amusing that others do use them in that way.

The Bible alone has spawned many sub cultures that disagree with each other yet they all use the same book as the basis for their lifestyles.

In a city near where I live we have the headquarters of an entire culture of people who use a sci-fi book written by L. Ron Hubbard as the basis for their lifestyle called Scientology. It has many members like Tom Cruise, John Travolta, etc. who are believers and it is spreading around the world.

I am not disrespecting anyone’s way of validate their lifestyle nor their choice of rites to formalize their choices. I have noticed that many people who claim to follow the Gorean roles can be rather ridged and judgmental towards others who choose to create their own rules and roles.

This part I can address directly as I have seen this first hand many times.

The mere mention of Gor or an interest in it always brings laughs when around the mainstream BDSM community. The true masters of BDSM will line up to try to be the one that can debunk anyone elses ideas of using it as a possible basis in a BDSM lifestyle.

However, that same group of people will not laugh at someone in their group of "real" BDSM'ers who wants to cross dress, practice infantilism, or any number of the different lifestyles which fall under the BDSM umbrella.

Yes, Goreans can be ridged and judgmental towards others. They have faced years and years of persecution from the very people who should have embraced them and invited them into the fold. It seems rather strange to me that if I were to get a sexual kick from balloon play I would not be ridiculed but welcomed by the BDSM community at large, but not so for the followers of the gorean lifestyle.

Some day we as people must realize that everyone has their own path in life and we should not ridicule them for it but congratulate them for finding their way, even when it does not match the way we have chosen for ourselves.

[Guest 91108]

I think that's a great post Ironwulf.
And I like the idea/comparison of basing lifestyles on other books to, such as religious ones.
Definitely a thread to learn something from if the reader is open.
There are so many closed minds on any issue or topic.

[Ironwulf]

Thanks Wolfscout,

Even though I am not truly gorean in my lifestyle I find I do not go to BDSM events or gatherings any more simply because I do not want to have to defend something that should not need defending.

It is a shame really and I can see why those that are "true believers" of the gorean lifestyle shy away from the main stream BDSM community or hide their true nature while there.

However, since I do understand the gorean way I have always felt it was my duty to stand aganst the ignorance that seperates the communities and continue to do so.

Perhaps someday things will be different.

[Widget]

I have read quite a few of the gor books, I know that they are a series. I do find it flat out rude to think that one point of view is more valid than others, wheather you have a gorean take on your life or any take. I agree that openess and acceptance of others view is the only way we learn about ourselves.

I can't blame anyone for being defensive when thier choice of beliefs is at risk of ridicule from others that "know better" and that is not right. There is always people that seem to think that they have all the answers and that thier way is the only way or your just not "serious".

Funny how that works. I didn't mention the bible deliberatly but that was the unspoken part of my statement that I felt in this thread perhaps shouldn't be mentioned. I only find it rather interesting because I have read more than one of the books and they are a comic book sort of story line. As i had stated an iteresting read but it is hard to understand as a basis of rules for a lifestyle. But then again everything has to start somewhere.

In the end it's to each thier own and if it works for them who is anyone to knock it.

[His_blizzard]

What happens to the old and not so pretty in that world...

I may be wrong but from what I remember there were drugs and treatments to keep one from aging as we do here on earth. And as for "pretty", the way I read the books, Gorean men found beauty in all females. It was the ones that desired to be pleasing and had true slave heat, even over those of greater beauty, that fetched the higher price at the markets. This may be my female perspective but that is how I viewed it. Just my two copper tarn coins worth. *grin* ~bliz~

[Timberwolf]

"Actually it is based off a whole series of books just like the Bible."

The fundamental problem with this statemenet is, despite the elements of the Bible (or other holy texts) that are *more than likely* fable, the books still have a solid basis in actual history. Events that actually occured, and people that actualy existed. Gorean novels cannot lay claim to the same, they are pure fantasy from start to finish. I don't consider that a valid comparison.

"In a city near where I live we have the headquarters of an entire culture of people who use a sci-fi book written by L. Ron Hubbard as the basis for their lifestyle called Scientology. It has many members like Tom Cruise, John Travolta, etc. who are believers and it is spreading around the world."

See above.

"Yes, Goreans can be ridged and judgmental towards others. They have faced years and years of persecution from the very people who should have embraced them and invited them into the fold."

"Because others were mean to me" is not an excuse to do the same in return. Frankly in my experiences, with you as a notable exception, Goreans have a severe lack of manners when it comes to actually telling you *what* Gor is. That only comes from my own experiences of course.

"Some day we as people must realize that everyone has their own path in life and we should not ridicule them for it but congratulate them for finding their way, even when it does not match the way we have chosen for ourselves."

Accepted as such. Gor certainly isn't right for me. Doesn't mean it isn't right for others.

[Ironwulf]

I didn't mention the bible deliberately but that was the unspoken part of my statement that I felt in this thread perhaps shouldn't be mentioned.

Well I had said the same back in my second post to this thread. However, because so many state that they can not understand how people can form a belief from a book, it ultimately has to be said that many do form lifestyle choices based on various books including those people in the BDSM lifestyle.

It may be from one of the religious books already mentioned or from a book like Jay Wiseman's SM 101, The Erotic Bondage Handbook, or one of any number of other books available, which people do see as the bibles of BDSM.

I once had a sub stop the session to tell me I was doing it wrong, I replied what do you mean I am doing it wrong. She said well that's not how Jay Wiseman said in his book to do it. I told her she should give Jay a call and see if he needed a sub because I do not base my life around doing everything the Jay Wiseman way.

----------------------------------------------
Igor reading from SM101 to Ironwulf
"insert probe 3 1/4 inch"
check
"secure with adhesive"
check
"apply voltage"
-slave screams-
check
----------------------------------------------

I practice safe, sane and consensual BDSM and if it happens to match up with Mr. Wisemans way of doing it great, but I will not do everything his way as the only way just because he wrote a book on BDSM.

I personally do not follow every concept presented by John Norman in the Gor books either. I think its safe to say that most probably do not. There are some people very committed to living as close to the books as they can but I believe that is a very small percentage of the total who practice gorean style BDSM.

I only find it rather interesting because I have read more than one of the books and they are a comic book sort of story line.

I must admit this is where I do not understand your thinking. While it has been a long time since I read comic books, I fail to see the connection. Of course I do not know what comic books you read nor which of Normans books you have read but in my limited experience I do not see the connection between them.

Player of Gor is perhaps my favorite book that I have read anywhere. The story seems to be complex and evolving, the characters rich and flavorful, the background elements colorful and detailed.

I have never seen any comic book come close to any of the Gor books to be honest. The first couple of Gor books which dealt mainly with the sci-fi setup, the back story, etc. were of no real interest to me and perhaps this is what you refer to.

The movies that were made using the titles from two of the Gor books were very much comic book movies, sadly they had little or nothing in common with the books.

It must be said at this point in the conversation that while I have read a great many books in a variety of literary styles I do not claim any superior knowledge as to what makes one book better then another except from my own personal enjoyment that came from reading it.

I think the facts however point to John Norman (AKA John Frederick Lange, Jr)
not being a writer of comic book quality fiction.

University: BA, University of Nebraska (1953)
University: MA, University of Southern California (1957)
University: PhD, Princeton University (1963)
Professor: Queens College New York - philosophy of history, philosophy of knowledge, philosophy and the challenge of the future

Sorry, but he just doesn't sound like a comic book writer to me.

[Ironwulf]

Hi Timberwolf, thanks for joining in.

You make some good points that I agree with. Goreans nor anyone involved in the BDSM lifestyle should react back with hatred just because they may have encountered it from someone before. But as humans we do. I admit to having been angered many times by Dom's telling me I was not a real Dom just because I happened to embrace some of the gorean philosophy in my BDSM lifestyle.

I am sure that has caused me to overreact later on when I felt an attack was coming when it was possible it wasn't. Wrong but human. We all tend to say "who are you to judge me" when confronted by others. Personally, I feel the only person that has any right to judge me as a Dom is my slave. If she continues to submit to me then I must be doing something right. No matter what name I chose to call my style.

The fundamental problem with this statemenet is, despite the elements of the Bible (or other holy texts) that are *more than likely* fable, the books still have a solid basis in actual history. Events that actually occured, and people that actualy existed. Gorean novels cannot lay claim to the same, they are pure fantasy from start to finish. I don't consider that a valid comparison.

Well I think what is being compared here is whether the philosophy contained in them is any more valid to base your culture off of then then any others.

Many people base their lifestyle on books that were written during a period of time that the writers believed the world was flat, the sun rotated around the earth. They believe in the philosophy of the book even though they know the events described were written by people with almost no understanding of the world around them.

If people needed a more historical real world based belief to follow then I would suppose we would have to either be muslim or mormon since both occured and were written about in more "modern times" by real people.

I think the point is yes, the Gor books do take place on a fantasy planet but would the philosophy concerning the D/s relationships between men and women be any more valid if Gor was really Hawaii and the lifestyle described was really one practiced by the natives of that island. I think not.

Remember all that is being said is that people do base lifestyles off of books, as to whether this book or that book should have more validity because of where, or when, or by who it was written is not in question.

[Guest 91108]

Gee .. and the thread wasn't supposed to really be a discussion about the books or the Games.

But since we've strayed in so many directions..
The bible makes use of places and events but i'd hardly call them as a telling of how it really was. word of mouth for couple hundred years before ever being wrote for the most part. much is fill in the blanks by later writers. then there's languange translations..... Then there's the newest version with street slang.... not a good topic to get me started on.

oh and followers of a lifestyle... zealots on all sides of nearly any issue.....

[Timberwolf]

Hi Timberwolf, thanks for joining in.

You make some good points that I agree with. Goreans nor anyone involved in the BDSM lifestyle should react back with hatred just because they may have encountered it from someone before. But as humans we do. I admit to having been angered many times by Dom's telling me I was not a real Dom just because I happened to embrace some of the gorean philosophy in my BDSM lifestyle.

I can understand your frustration. As a switch, I've often felt like I'm not ever *completely* accepted (or perhaps, a better word would be "understood") by a lot of people I meet who are either just a Top or bottom. Everything from "you're just confused" to "it's impossible for that to work" to one Domme telling me the fact I had a Dom side was a sign I needed "re-training" (I found her quaintly amusing, if nothing else).

[TheDeSade]

John Norman, who wrote the Gor books, also wrote a non-fiction book called "Imaginative Sex." It is an interesting read if you can find a copy! The man definitely had some ideas on sex and the role of men and women in society. But, did you know that the first Gor novels were based in part on a series of novels written by Edgar Rice Burroughs of Tarzan Fame? And that they were originally intended to be an allegorical commentary on society and culture of his time. And all you were thinking about was big hairy men and soft curvy slaves. . . .

[Ironwulf]

@TheDeSade
Yes I did and while I have not read "Imaginative Sex" I have read "Time Slave" which is a historical fiction and deals with how a modern women handles herself when sent into the the distant past and the primal roles of men and women during that time.

----------

I just listened to an interesting point being made on the "Submission and Coffee with Dollie Llama podcast! of 02-03-07" (the latest)

The Gor comments come in at the 18:20 mark and run about 2 minutes.

I am going to post the link below for the free download if that is a mistake on my part to do so please delete it. Otherwise just right click and "save link target as" to download, then just play it with your MP3 player.

http://www.askdollie.com/SAC-2-03-07.mp3

The basic points of the conversation is that what bothers them the most about gorean philosophy is that it is to structured for them. They do not want a relationship based on protocol since it is to much trouble. They basically don't want to play by set rules but to just make it up as they go along.

So I guess my question to everyone (including lurking goreans) is:

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle."

[Timberwolf]

"The basic points of the conversation is that what bothers them the most about gorean philosophy is that it is to structured for them. They do not want a relationship based on protocol since it is to much trouble. They basically don't want to play by set rules but to just make it up as they go along.

So I guess my question to everyone (including lurking goreans) is:

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle.""

My problem isn't the rules of Gor per se (as I understand them), more the rigidity of saying "This is the only basic format acceptable if you want to call yourself Gorean". For me the entire point is finding a structure that works for the individual. Wide, sweeping conclusions about "what works" are by default, destined to fail when put under scrutiny, sexual philosophy or otherwise.

I take the same exception to it that I take when Christian posters reference to the Bible and say "See, A Male Dom/female sub relationship is 'natural', it's in the book". Well, tell yourself that if it makes you feel better, but as a male with a sub streak, call me crazy but I don't take well to having my behaviour defined as unnatural - which is exactly what the statement does, whether intended or not. It simply isn't true, accurate, or fair.

Conversely with Goreans, just because I don't feel the need for (in my own opinion) an undue level of visible formality, doesn't mean I lack either structure, or format. It's simply different. Goreans themselves make a direct choice to ostricise themselves, in a way, by handing themselves the Gorean label - "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you're not one of us". In that sense, Goreans do as much to distance themselves from "the rest of us" as anyone else ever has. My structure may not be Gorean, but it does exist.

There's also the issue of "do you really want full-time strucutre", meaning out of the bedroom basically. I do, many here do, but not everyone does. There's no reason those people should feel like they are having noses turned up at them as a result.

Part of my own personal philosophy in life in general (beyond just D/s), has been a direct choice to rely on my instincs a great deal, and not too much on written sources. This is not to say I don't read, or am unwilling to consult well written sources of information. But I also think too much of anything is not a good thing - I see a lot of very intelligent people who, when it comes to making decisions, are doing little more in life than "consulting the manual" on that subject, as it were. An over-reliance on the written advice of others, as opposed to listening to themselves and finding ways to work through things using those tools. I choose to take a more... self-disigned approach, in D/s and many other things.

Thus as a result of several factors I couldn't see Gor ever working for me personally. That is not to say it's fatally flawed by any means, it simply isn't for me.