This is a very interesting thread and, Wolfy, I think your last post was well balanced, thank you.

There are a couple of things that worry me generally. The first is a 'lifestyle'. For me personally, this is a mystery. Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle, to state rules of behaviour and habit by which they regulate themselves daily, and especially to take rules that they have not discovered for themselves? I have never understood this need. Be it being a Trekky or a Gorean or following some form of strict religion, it has always seemed to me that to follow behavioural regulations laid down by someone else shows a lack of strength in the individuals, a lack of ability to discover themselves, and regulate their own lives.

On the other hand, I can certainly see the attraction. You no longer have to suffer the great philosophical questions, what is right, what is wrong, how should I act and interact with others.

Balance, and finding your own way, seems to me to be the only sensible method of living: because at some time you will encounter situations for which your adopted external lifestyle does not cater, problems to which it will not be able to provide an answer. And then you will find yourself defenseless, having no training in self-analysis, self-discipline, or empathy with others, by which to find your own solution.

Still, I'm way off thread. Yes, of course, if you as a couple wish to have a D/s relationship rather than just sex games, then self-discipline is an absolute necessity. But this self-discipline is imposed in order to reach a goal that has been predefined: just like it requires self-discipline to study at college etc. etc., when you know what you want at the end of it. This self-discipline is necessary for both parties: and both parties really do need to know when to ease up. Training is a stress and a pressure. As His_blizzard said of her own relationship, "remember this is real life. (...) There are many days the Gorean firmness is put on a back burner because I need more nilla at the moment."

On another point, though, it is perfectly possible to train someone to do without thought: behavioural modification, 'brain-washing' techniques can be applied in a D/s relationship, breaking down the sub/slave's personality completely to rebuild them and mould them to the Dominant's desired format. The sub/slave is no longer obeying through free-will and self-imposed, desired obedience and discipline.

Now, I will defend anyone's right to adopt a lifestyle (provided it does not cause harm to others and they do not try to impose it on me), even though it bewilders me and I cannot truly approve. But my very soul rises up in disgust at the concept of severe behavioural modification. How can that be a consensual thing, since the sub/slave becomes a different person - almost a non-existant person, in fact?

Anyone who can enlighten me...

I get the feeling I'm going to upset people by this post, for which I apologise in advance. I really do want to know, to understand, and I am not meaning to criticise. Disagree, yes. Condemn, no. Except for the brain-washing thing.