Is it right to dominate a low self-esteem sub?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

In fact, most people in cases of rape, tend to overcompensate in their lives in one way or the other. Rape victim typically tend to either become very promiscuous sexually or obese, or both in some cases.

Victims of abuse may have very healthy self-esteems, but they tend to become abusers themselves. Most chronic abusers are very, very self-assured. That's what makes them so attractive to their victims. Well, that and repeat patterning events.

What tends to cause low self-esteem are overbearing or ineffective parents and bullying. The child feels helpless and, therefore, makes himself that way over the course of his life. Basically, in the simplest of terms, it's also repeat patterning and it is a conditioned response.

Whether you like psychology or not, our mental and emotional habits are formed our of our experiences and patterns.

Also, as far as sciences being faddish, I'd like to point the finger at supposed weight loss plans before I start pointing my fingers at applied sciences.

[pandemonium]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
In fact, most people in cases of rape, tend to overcompensate in their lives in one way or the other.
As do children of alcoholics.

Rape victim typically tend to either become very promiscuous sexually or obese, or both in some cases.

ME: I’d like to see the numbers of that population sample. Prove the correlation, please. There is nothing to say that obesity and sexual promiscuity are exclusive to rape victims. That has the capacity to manifest in any type of abuse……be it mental, physical, or emotional. Nor should it be excluded from other types of self-destructive behavior.


Victims of abuse may have very healthy self-esteems, but they tend to become abusers themselves. Most chronic abusers are very, very self-assured. That's what makes them so attractive to their victims. Well, that and repeat patterning events.

ME: Its cyclical. But the way you have written it, which may not be your intention, is that it is only one way or the other. These are the only two forms that it may manifest and this perpetuates the eternal victim, therefore, I disagree. It is possible for people to make it out and move beyond. When you line people up as only able to move within that small of a parameter you have limited them.
I also disagree with chronic abusers being self-assured. They manipulate. When you manipulate your not operating from a place of strength. If you were then you wouldn’t need to manipulate. You can’t have both. Its contradictory.


What tends to cause low self-esteem are overbearing or ineffective parents and bullying. The child feels helpless and, therefore, makes himself that way over the course of his life. Basically, in the simplest of terms, it's also repeat patterning and it is a conditioned response.

ME: And this is different from "deviance" stemming from a break or nonexistent tie w/ any agent of socialization, how? Its only conditioned until you become aware. Hey, there was no such thing as the Kodak kid till the 1940's. No such thing. They were miniture adults. It takes years for people to stop being influenced. Those people ARE still alive.

Whether you like psychology or not, our mental and emotional habits are formed our of our experiences and patterns.

ME: I did not say that people weren’t shaped by those forces. In fact, I will take it further by saying that they are shaped by ethnicity, race, gender, geography, industry and politics. Its called a world view.


Also, as far as sciences being faddish, I'd like to point the finger at supposed weight loss plans before I start pointing my fingers at applied sciences.

ME: It’s a soft science. Just like Soc, history and (gasp) economics. I’m merely indicating my preference. I have found that it, usually, makes it easier if people know where I am coming from. You see, here’s the problem with this applied science, its theories and there are a lot of them and they are judged by somebody’s standards. The trick is…….by whose standards. Whose expectations? Who decides the roles and how they should be played? Husband? Parents? The middle class which supports the ruling class? The ruling gender? Whites? Protestants? Factories? If I am not happy by someone elses standards, should I take the prescription that cuts off all emotions so I don’t feel anything………but I CONTINUE to perform? Will those same expectations be there in 5 years? Or 10 years? Nu-huh. I don’t think so. How long ago was it that they stopped giving shock treatments for homosexuality and or any other “deviant” behavior? Not long enough.

[Jane SC]

Hi.

Red Vixen; I am not at all offended by your posting and I think you make some very valid points which I certainly would not disagree with.

I was very lucky; I acknowledge that, and I know things could have worked out very differently. In fact my closest (vanilla) friend was appalled about what I was doing and issued me with a whole series of dire warnings about my first owner. And she could have been right......................... Thankfully she was 100% wrong.

Apropos the latter postings, I am an example of a girl who was bullied at home and that was the cause of my teenage angst. But I have never been raped or sexually abused in any way. I know that bullying often leads to sexual assault in some homes, but I was lucky (again) as my brother's 'little games' never developed that far> Also ours was a very closed household so they never handed me over to their friends. (As happened to a friend of mine at school)

It may be cathartic talking about these things but maybe it is a measure of how things have changed for me in that I can discuss parts of my life that, once upon a time, were deep dark secrets for me.

Love, Jane.

[pandemonium]

Jane, please believe me that it was never ever my intention to speak of or compare your or anyone else's experience on this board. I should have made that much more clear than I did.
I am getting the feeling that this has been taken the wrong way. It was not my intention to fight or down what people do.
I am quite passionate when I discuss things.

[Jane SC]

Hi Pandemonium.

Please don't worry; I did not take your remarks personally - in the old days I probably would have done so, but not now, I am glad to say. For me, rampant paranoia went hand in glove with low self-esteem but that seems to have corrected itself.

I also think you are right to be passionate on this topic - people being passionate about things they believe in are people I approve of. Even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

(I am racking my tiny mind for that quotation that goes something like "I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Anyone know the CORRECT quotation and who said it?)

Anyway Pandemonium, there is nothing to be concerend about; your openness is refreshing even if I may not totally agree with you.

Love Jane.

[GaryWilcox]

Originally posted by Jane SC
(I am racking my tiny mind for that quotation that goes something like "I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Anyone know the CORRECT quotation and who said it?)

first, commendations to Pandemonium and Jane for being such non-varmint, good folk.

Here's a complete explanation about that quote you are looking for, Jane.

VOLTAIRE'S FRIENDS

[pandemonium]

Cool!
I think its Voltaire and I think it goes something along these lines:
"I may take issue with what you have to say but I will defend it to the death."

[pandemonium]

Whoops! didn't see that you posted GaryWilcox.

And double whoops! I was wrong.

[BruceBoxer]

AAnd Patrick Henry stole from Voltaire--has nobody EVER had an original thought? I think it was Jerry Howard, aka Curly, of the "3 Stooges" who suummed it up for me..."oh, wise guy..." Hey, I'm drunk, what can I say?

Originally posted by pandemonium
Cool!
I think its Voltaire and I think it goes something along these lines:
"I may take issue with what you have to say but I will defend it to the death."

[lt_jake_veart]

Psychologically, it may be a danger.

Low self-esteemed people tend to take things more deeply than they show on the outside. A simple word, or a phrase, or an arguement during a scene or everyday life between the Dominant/submissive could cause that person to be hurt far beyond they would show.

Best advice, use caution. Try to touch on their feelings at the start, and adjust your approach to those feelings. Learn that there are certain things that you'll avoid with this person, no matter what, because they CAN hurt this person.

[Jones, Nikka]

Originally posted by red~vixen
So, do i think it is right to dominate a low-self esteem submissive......generally speaking, no, i do not, because it takes a great deal of esteem and inner strength to hand the controls over to somebody else.

I agree with red~vixen. It takes a lot of inner strenght to be a submissive. I would go as far as to state that in some relationships the submissive wields even more power than the dom (the limits they set are more tangible).

Other interesting questions: How many submissives in this forum are aware of the strenght they display by their own submissiveness?
How do we balance our different levels of self-esteem with our need to submit?
Can our need to submit be satiated by an improvement in our self-esteem?

I know these questions may be considered subversive by some of the doms in this forum. I am not trying to start a revolution!

[Jane SC]

Hi Nikka and everyone else.

I think your questions are ones every submissive here should be asking themselves. And I'll opne the batting with the following answers.

1. How many submissives in this forum are aware of the strenght they display by their own submissiveness?
This is something that it took me a long time to learn. But now I am aware that, over the years with my two owners I have become much stronger, and far better adjusted.

2. How do we balance our different levels of self-esteem with our need to submit?
I don't think this is a question that can not really be answered as we would be working within ever changing parameters. The 'levels' are purely subjective, open to personal interpretation and arbitary, but I can say that, as my self-esteem grew, so I found the need to submit grew stronger too. Maybe 'need' is wrong in this context; probably "the desire to submit more fully" would be a more accurate portrayal of my feelings.

3. Can our need to submit be satiated by an improvement in our self-esteem?
No. My self-esteem may have improved over the last 6 years but, as I have already said, that does not mean that my desire to submit has lessened. If anything, the reverse is true. However this "no" answer applies to me, and me only - I cannot speak for any other subbies.

Anyway Nikka, thanks for asking those questions and for your thoughtful posting. I hope some other subbies reply - even if I am shot down in flames, it wonm't worry me as my answers are how I see my own reactions and situation.

Love Jane.

[BruceBoxer]

I must say from the get go that my opinion is mine alone and it does not demean anybody. If you feel insulted, the following thought was NOT meant to do that rather, just my thoughts on submissives with low self-esteem.

I believe a true submissive defacto has low self-esteem...it is illogical for me to understand a sub that hasn't taken that one his/herself.

I had a friend murdered by her husband a few years ago. I commented, "How could he have done that?" The investigating detective commented, "You can't understand because you're not a criminal--you're not wired to think that way."

I surmise that's why I can't see a submissive without low self-esteem--just can't think that way. That being said, I don't look down on submissives but realize that their perception of self must be taken into account not just in our relationship but in life in general.

I have high self-esteem--no brag, just fact. It doesn't happen naturally but I work and succedd at what I want. If I fail, and I really want to do, attain, become something, I keep trying.

Cheers,
Boxer

[MrJerseyGuy]

I respectfully disagree with Mr. BruceBoxer's analysis, although I can see where he's coming from. I suppose even I would question the self esteem of a woman (or man) who desires to be a 24/7 sex slave. There I might even consider that there are far deeper issues than self esteem alone. And I'm talking about someone who truly seeks that kind of relationship...not the ones who fantasize about it.

On the other hand, I am sure there are plenty of sexual submissives who suffer esteem issues, just as a percentage of any sub group of our population does. At the same time, I think there is an equal percentage of sexual submissives who are just the opposite. I have met many women over the years who are genuinely self confident, strong and carry an important position in the workplace...but who seek a submissive role in the bedroom. It has surprised me on more than one occassion.

My personal sub basically took me by the balls and told me what she wanted and how she wanted to be treated. She didn't know that I would react favorably (which I did) and she jeapordized a relationship that is very important to her in an effort to improve it. I think that shows a lot of self confidence and high self esteem.

[Jones, Nikka]

Originally posted by MrJerseyGuy
On the other hand, I am sure there are plenty of sexual submissives who suffer esteem issues, just as a percentage of any sub group of our population does. At the same time, I think there is an equal percentage of sexual submissives who are just the opposite.

Now let us follow that thought to its logical conclusion: There must also be out there some dom/mes suffering from low self-esteem.

The question that begs to be asked again is. Are they, or did they become dominant because of it?

An even deeper doubt: Should any sub submit to a dom/me that is lacking inner confidence despite outward signs (whatever these may be) of dominance? How can we tell?

Are we to conclude that the only power we really could/should wield is our own self-esteem/determination?

Wow! this thread is taking us to places I did not intend when I asked the original question

[pandemonium]

Originally posted by BruceBoxer
AAnd Patrick Henry stole from Voltaire--has nobody EVER had an original thought? I think it was Jerry Howard, aka Curly, of the "3 Stooges" who suummed it up for me..."oh, wise guy..." Hey, I'm drunk, what can I say?

Hahaha! I know this is off topic and this is probably much funnier in my head then how it will come out. Patrick Henry, a fine example of how to go from a prima donna speaker to a blow hard.
If I was a betting woman, I would bet that it Madison who first gave the almighty eyeroll and sang,"talking much and saying nothing."

[BruceBoxer]

Was that James, Dolly or Oscar Madison of "The Odd Couple"? I'll go for the latter then it's funier n'cest pas?

Originally posted by pandemonium
Hahaha! I know this is off topic and this is probably much funnier in my head then how it will come out. Patrick Henry, a fine example of how to go from a prima donna speaker to a blow hard.
If I was a betting woman, I would bet that it Madison who first gave the almighty eyeroll and sang,"talking much and saying nothing."

[Count_DUQ]

OK this is a topic that I have had cause to come across. In one situation you have the person who is beyond help and must only be helped by a professional. A fellow Dom I know once tried to Top a girl who was completely into him. This sounds like the perfect situation bar the "Fatal Attraction" it almost lead to. she was totaly beyond help and while he thought he could help he was completely wrong. If it looks bad - get out quick!!!

Then you have the other situation which I have come across. When the sub is aways putting him/her self down.... I find that this type of low self esteem can be overcome by being Dominated!

Any sub who gives anything of themself to a Dom should understand that the Dom has the best interest of the sub in mind. (If you find your Dom does not then maybe your being abused - get out). If you went out and bought a car the first thing you do and not look on how to crash it (at least I hope it isn't - except for the film "Crash"). What I mean is a sub is your responsibility and property, to be looked after. If the sub has low self-esteem then the whole D/s relationship should be able to fix this with the constant knowledge to the sub that it is doing well. Pride is a powerful weapon when it come to low self-esteem.

[pandemonium]

Internal motivation is longer lasting and more self-directive than is external motivation, which must be repeated reinforced by praise or concrete rewards. Some individuals - particularly children of certain ages and some adults - have little capacity for internal motivation and must be guided and reinforced constantly. The use of incentives is based on the principle that learning occurs more effectively when the student experiences feelings of satisfaction. Caution should be exercised in using external rewards when they are not absolutely necessary; their use me be followed by a decline in internal motivation.

http://ss.uno.edu/ss/teachdevel/Motivat/Motivate.html

That is pretty much what I was trying to say earlier. And shorter, too.

Fear is a key factor in external motivation, there are problems with that, I believe.

[jaro_99]

Its a good question...though I agree there's no easy answer. Sometimes you might see warning signs...sometimes things might not become apparent till afterwards. Life is like that.

But my view is that when a Dom is aware that a sub or potential sub is in fact exhibiting low self-esteem they are better off staying clear. And I'd suggest that'also in the interests of the other person concerned.

I agree it gets back to the issue about informed consent...about actively and willingly submitting...very much different to simply going along with someone or something because one does not see an alternative or cannot reach out for it. In my experience (limited compared to some) a Dom is going to be better off with someone who has some strength and some confidence - it just becomes more fun to know you can twist and motivate and drive that person in certain directions notwithstanding their own 'vanilla' preoccupations or hang-ups.

My current submissive very much enjoys being my slut and my whore...and these terms are used openly by us both. But it reflects our exploration of her sexuality...something that's been discussed at length. I'd never use such terms in order to humiliate or put her down.

And no, don't think that means I never exploit a situation which might be embarrassing or humiliating! *grin*

OTOH...I had a lover some time back...a nascent sub let's say - someone who was more than ready to experiment and have me dominate' her. Again, a lot to do wiht her 'kinky' dark side and enjoying the freedom subnmission could bring. But I never felt entirely comfortable with going the whole hog and taking her as my sub...of becoming her Dom or Master. I still think I could have collared her with only a little bit of encouragement. I didn't - because I sensed that she was mostly exhibiting an infatuation with me...she would have done almost anything I asked because she simply had no way of ever saying no!

Now, perhaps its just a matter of the order of things - maybe if she'd been my submissive first and infatuated down the track. But there was always that doubt in my mind asto whether she'd one day wake up and regret all that she'd experienced with me.

But, to put one other twist in the tail - the aspect of low self-esteem that most interests me from a D/s viewpoint is *trust*

When someone has low self-esteem it may not be possible completely to overcome that. What can be achieved is to build up trust between two people - to create an environment in which self-confidence might be cultivated. And trust is of course vital to good ongoing D/s relationships. So I can understand where a Dom might feel they were able to take on a sub with low self-esteem but still be non-exploitative and to help that individual to grow and develop trust as a pre-cursor to developing more confidence.

Self-esteem and self-confidence - almost any of us could think of a situation where we may lack confidence and might want to hang on tight to someone we can trust and rely on.

[Tree]

Quote:

**
from Mobius:
But on the other hand I wonder just how many subs are realy well in all terms. I think if the cold light of truth betold that most subs are not well in one way or another. wether they are into bdsm becouse they were abused when they were a child or other forms of trama.

Am I saying that a sub has to be sick to be a sub. Not totaly but but there are a few that the gates are down lights are flashing but there no train in sight.
**
However subs got into pain, it's just another method of stimulation. A way to get to orgasm, and fairly pleasurable at that. Subs aren't sick - they're just explorers who have happened to stumble on sex as the next frontier to explore. What's the alternative? The missionary position and 'oh, darling, that was lovely!' but still feeling hopelessly unfulfilled? Or even worse, masturbating and having to imagine ones fantasies instead of acting them out? As for abusive parents, be they mothers or fathers, that was then and this is now. i.e. We're over 18 now, and can make our own choices.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I think this is a pretty good discussion. It did get a little sidetracked, but it could still help those newer members here to give it a read.

[mmmmmmm]

This excellent thread reminds me of a situation a year ago where an "online celebrity sub" shot and killed her Master ...

* the dom was known to be playing with two women with admitted mental health/self-esteem issues

* he bragged about his knowledge of psychology and ability to use psychological techniques

*and his online journal nick was, with a bit of semiotic analysis, a clear declaration that he enjoyed toying with the mentally ill

... interesting ... I could go on, but I'll stop there.

(protecting my head from incoming bullets ... hey at least I didn't use names!!)

[yellowrose]

Very interesting read. As someone who has just started to "dip her toe" into the waters of submission I have found the need to examine why I desire this. Of all the questions I have asked myself . . .self esteem level hasn't been one of my concerns. I would not consider myself to be someone with low self esteem.

Yes, I can see where trauma which led to low self esteem could make for a submissive person. No, that isn't correct. . .the term submissive doesn't fit. Timid or someone overly eager to please, but that doesn't necessarily describe a submissive. A submissive can have self esteem issues or be someone who is confident enough to relinquish control to another person, carefully chosen and trusted for mutual pleasure.

One thing I did consider was the esteem of a Dom. The need to control, intimidation, or hurt another could be a way of compensating for a low self esteem or not. Haven't we all heard of kids who pick fights or tease others in order to make themselves feel better?

I am not by any means saying that Dom's are bullies or have low self esteem. No more then I would say that about submissives. It just seems to me that the role a submissive places him or herself in, is easier to see as a low self esteem, without realizing that the actions of a dominate could also be seen as low self esteem.

I think there are as many Dom's with low self esteem as there are subs. The potential for abuse is the difference.

Is it right to dominate a low self esteem sub? I would think it depends on the dominates own level of esteem. One who is compensating for a low self esteem him/herself, I would say no. If the dominate has a balanced self esteem then I would say that yes. A person with a good self esteem generally seeks out one who also has a good self esteem. If a dom with good self esteem got with a sub with low self esteem either the mix would fall apart and they go seperate ways or the sub, through the support of a caring dom, increases his/her self esteem.

Somehow though I think that if it was reversed. . .low self esteem dom with a good self esteem sub, bringing the esteem of the dom up wouldn't occur. I could be wrong, but it just seems the roles wouldn't encourage that.