[QUOTE=eraser]
debate has raved on and on since the label of TPE has been around.

This brings the point on the ‘manipulation’ automatically being abuse. On a daily we are manipulated, by co-workers, media and marketing, perspective commentary’s of news person’s and religious leaders. Making a collective statement like that resolves the world into one of total abuse. If you were to take that that manipulation is abuse perspective, anything persuasive including this post is abusive.

we have all heard the phrase ‘give and take’. When someone gives you something like the gift of submission, then you TAKE the gift in turn taking that control. Which brings up my argument to the statement

The Dominant should have a good understanding of the person he is playing with and if he doesn’t know the person well enough to know if there not ‘okay with this’ then they shouldn’t be sceneing with them. I’m not here to cater to the submissive’s desires she and I are here to cater to mine.[QUOTE]


Congratulations eraser on a clear statement of your point of view, any submissive of yours is going to know exactly where they kneel, with no manipulation.
The only thing I wish to add to what I have said in earlier posts, and this relates to erasers comments on sales techniques, is that I would define the main difference between influence and manipulation is in the motivation of the effector. IN influencing another we are seeking for a win/win outcome, whereas in manipulation the effector is out to win, regardless of the outcome for the affected. the techniques employed are the same, albeit used in slightly different ways and certainly with different intended outcomes.

THe analogy of sales is a good one, because really good sales reps, think long term, and value and honour their customers ( like the good dom knows his sub well, and doesn't abuse their trust), bad salesmen are after a quick buck and don't care a toss about the customers needs, and hence use the same techniques differently for quick manipulative outcomes, especailly targetting vulnerable targets, as presumably will abusive doms, vanillla or bdsm. It is these types that can take subvert the freely given submission of power by a sub. I guess!