Quote Originally Posted by learningtopleez
Besides, if a sub is never disobedient, how does the punishment come into play?
I felt that this deserved comment as well. I just couldn't decide how to put it into words until just now.

During the "training" phase of a relationship, a submissive may be disciplined or punished for forgetting a chore, not completing an assignment on time, or a variety of other things. It's not necessarily that they are disobedient. It could just be that they forgot their deadline or got busy with other things and didn't complete what was assigned her. That's what the training phase of the relationship is for; to recognize and correct these behaviors early.

And it is possible for a submissive to be disobedient and still be a submissive. That goes along with that not having to tame or break them. Not many dominants want a completely cowed, docile submissive that just says "Yes Sir" whenever they are spoken to. Most dominants want people that can carry on conversations, have their own opinions, etc. If a dominant gives an order or makes a request of his submissive and she says something like "I don't feel like it right now" then yes, that is disobedience, but there might also be a reason for the refusal of the request, too. Maybe the submissive is sick and doesn't even feel like getting out of bed. Maybe she's having her period and any sexual tasks are really uncomfortable and inconvenient for her. The mark of a good dominant is not just to say "You have disobeyed me; you will be punished." A good dominant will ask why the submissive is refusing to obey his requests. Most good submissives will have a reasonable answer handy (ie "I'm on my period," "My dad died," or "I cut off my foot and had to have it sown back on.") However, when a submissive is disobedient because she "just didn't feel like" doing the chore, or she "wants her master to punish her" isn't really being submissive. It's a more subtle form of topping from the bottom. The submissive is telling her dominant that either she doesn't respect his wishes, doesn't want to carry our his instructions for inconsequential reasons, or just wants to manipulate her dominant into giving her a spanking.

It is, in my opinion, the ultimate desire of every good dominant to not have to punish his submissive. It reflects much better on the dominant and the submissive if she can tell others "Sure, I had a rough time at first, but once I learned the rules and understood the chore schedule, I really didn't need to be disciplined anymore." In cases like that, the dominant has trained the submissive to his expectations and she is performing well.

Also, many people confuse spankings, whippings, or other kind of pain torments for punishments. Those might be great punishments for submissives that don't care for pain much. A swift, hard spanking at the moment a task is forgotten or an assignment not done is a good behavioral deterent against future slips. However, many submissive are also masochists, and they get pleasure from pain. In this kind of circumstance, I would never, ever use a pain punishment to discipline that kind of submissive. I would do the exact opposite. I would very likely tie her and put her in a closet alone for a few hours, or make her write lines, or design a punishment specific to the offense that was comitted. Punishments are not supposed to be fun. They are supposed to be instances of negative reinforcement designed to deter bad behaviors. Giving a masochist a spanking as a punishment is kind of like giving a child a piece of candy for breaking a lamp. It will only encourage poor behavior. Giving a masochist a time-out in an empty closet, though, is more like giving a child a time-out. It makes a more lasting impression and will hopefully deter the poor behavior in the future.

One other thing I feel worth mentioning about punishments is that I don't believe they should ever be sexual in nature. I have not always thought this way, but several conversations between myself and FF have made that a little more clear to me. A punishment is not supposed to be an enjoyable act, and quite often sex is very enjoyable for both parties. Therefore, it's usually not a good behavior deterent. Plus, I think that using sex, or even certain sexual acts, as punishments may send the wrong message to the submissive. Implanting the idea in her head that "you're fucking me because I'm bad" just doesn't seem right to me. I can see how that would be easily confusing.

Anyway, I hope this helps to explain a little better. I hope I haven't thoroughly hijacked the thread. If so, then I'm sorry.