"Barely Submissive"- A Question of Being

[tessa]

So, Red and I were talking and she brought this term to my attention- "barely submissive". I understood instantly what she meant by it. We seem to understand each other really well on things such as this. And on things like riding a horse down a trail through the woods and that a Ruby Relaxer is the best cocktail on the planet.

For us, 'barely submissive' means that we struggle within our submission. We are strong-willed, passionately opinionated women. We think (sometimes too much) about what it is to actually submit, what it means to us and for us. We understand the depths to which our submission could take us (and the Doms we love), but we are scared out of our hearts and minds about where that might leave us. We are scared because we struggle so much with trusting others and trusting ourselves. Life plays a mean hand sometimes and it has affected how we relate to others and how we perceive ourselves. We honestly want to seek those depths, but the lack of trust holds us back from searching. We know, deep down and true, that we can be so much more in our submission than just "barely". But it takes so much effort and energy to deal with the baggage we drag along with us that it can be an overwhelming task to undertake, for ourselves and for our Doms. And sometimes, because we are so strong-willed and scared and can put on a "pretty face" to hide behind, our 'barely submissive' attitude is seen as the sum total of who we really are and all we can really ever be.

Our conversation about it all made me think even more. Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

I am placing this out there for everyone, anyone, who can shed some light on this darkness we find ourselves in at times.

Thanks.



ps. Red didnt' know I was posting this. I included her presence here because of our discussion and because it helped make me feel not so alone.

[Sir_Russell]

That describes morgan to a tee. So let me give it to you from a Dom/Master point of view.

First, I grew quickly tired of subs that were no challenge and very docile. Where is the challenge in that and where is the joy and honor of seeing someone you love work so very hard to be what both of you want her to be. morgan wants to be the best slave ever for me and for her with her strength, intelligence, and trust issues that is quite the dream.

Second, for the Dom a challenge is welcome, why else would we call it training. Know that we will be there on your bad days, even if you hurt us with your words and actions because we know how hard what you do for us is. Again those that are docile are fine for some but not for me.

[jeanne]

For us, 'barely submissive' means that we struggle within our submission. We are strong-willed, passionately opinionated women. We think (sometimes too much) about what it is to actually submit, what it means to us and for us. We understand the depths to which our submission could take us (and the Doms we love), but we are scared out of our hearts and minds about where that might leave us. We are scared because we struggle so much with trusting others and trusting ourselves. Life plays a mean hand sometimes and it has affected how we relate to others and how we perceive ourselves. We honestly want to seek those depths, but the lack of trust holds us back from searching. We know, deep down and true, that we can be so much more in our submission than just "barely". But it takes so much effort and energy to deal with the baggage we drag along with us that it can be an overwhelming task to undertake, for ourselves and for our Doms. And sometimes, because we are so strong-willed and scared and can put on a "pretty face" to hide behind, our 'barely submissive' attitude is seen as the sum total of who we really are and all we can really ever be.

For me, my baggage is mine to deal with. And I have. I never would have been able to take the first step in this life (admitting that I actually want it) without first getting rid of most of the rocks in the sack that I chose to carry on my back for a long (too long) time. Life is too, too short to let the past and my previous untrusting attitude get in the way. My advice to anyone dealing with past events or attitudes rearing their ugly heads: take action and deal with it. Sometimes that means talking it out, sometimes professional help, sometimes just letting go of it - no longer giving the past power to control my present and future.

I'm afraid that I make this sound easy and simple - it isn't. It's hard work and even more worthwhile because it isn't easy. But when you succeed at letting go of internal blocks to happiness, you know you've really accomplished something vitally important. And the sense of peace and harmony you'll feel is worth every minute of emotional pain and discomfort you had to go through to reach that point.

Our conversation about it all made me think even more. Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

No, it isn't as far as you can hope to go. Here's how I've begun to be more of what I dream: give in. Not give up, just give in. Give in to the reality that some days the only way I get to demonstrate my submissiveness to him is by making him a drink, cooking supper, asking about his day and being there for him to turn to in the night. No play, no ritual, no BDSM stuff to it. But, always be ready, willing, encouraging, communicating and most importantly, listening. I miss the gems of hope and dominance and love that I'm so hungrily seeking when I'm just nodding my head and saying "Uh huh" while I think of other things.

Giving up and accepting are two different things to me. When I give up, I quit trying - I admit defeat. Not something I want to ever do. When I accept, however, I'm admitting that right now my life is the way it is supposed to be. Not the way I would necessarily choose, but the way it is. Period. After accepting, I get to look at what I can do to bring it closer to my ideal. The opposite of defeat!

tessa, you know that I have struggled with the pace that my husband has set in our exploration of D/s and integration of same into our life. My impatience and desire for more, more, more have run into the realities of time and his chosen route. But I am truly beginning to believe (and so is he), deep in my heart and soul, that what we are building will last the rest of our lives - that when I'm 80 years old and he calls me to him in that certain tone of voice, I'll still get that sense of calm excitement inside and begin to get wet.

Finally, (yes, finally!), it's worth the struggle and the struggle is what makes it challenging and interesting and, quite frankly, an amazing turn-on.

jeanne

[TomOfSweden]

I could rant on all day about this, but I'll try not to. I think it's important to figure out what it is you want from a Master/Mistress and then only accept that. If you have trouble trusting a Master then break up and move on.

If the problem is you, (ie nobody will ever earn your trust) then just go for it. Take the plunge even if you are scared, (under the condition that you think you have found a good one, bad doms are a dime a dozen). It's better to have a heart broken in a thousand bits repeatedly than never. It's also very educational. It's good to get all those rose tinted teenage illusions of relationships banished from the system early. Maybe it isn't baggage. Maybe it's reality poking it's nasty finger on your forehead.

I've been involved with plenty of submissives and I could spend weeks putting them into carefully crafted categories. People are submissive of a large variety of reasons, (as are dominants) so it's very hard to come up with generalised sweeping advice that works for all subs. But being motivated by fear is always bad.

[margaret]

Tessa, thank you for posting this - you described me almost exactly, and it's nice to know that other people are feeling this way.

[^firefly^]

tessa,

I hear you, and completely understand.

When I was younger, I was clay. Easily molded. I didn't know who I was, and I was forever trying to be what everyone around me wanted me to be.

It never works. I'm older, and (I'd like to hope) a little wiser. I'm not as malleable. I have opinions of my own. I can be stubborn. I've learned (the hard way) that I have to cling to who I am, and what I want. If that makes me less "submissive" in some eyes, well, that's their opinion.

I don't think you are "barely submissive". I think you are "realistically submissive". I'd love to be like some of the subs/slaves in stories that I've read (and written) and be able to let go like that *snaps fingers* and submit to his every whim and desire, whenever, whereever. But I'm not like that. I have a real life. The munchkins need me. The house gets messy. I get overwhelmed, or sick, or just plain distracted.

I'm not always willing (or able) to do whatever pleases him. Sometimes I'm scared to try something new, or just plain tired. But everytime I catch myself "putting it off", I remind myself: "This is what you wanted. Take it."

I was once told "Nothing worthwhile is easy; nothing easy is worthwhile." And it's true...if it was so easy, would the rewards be as "worth it"? Not for me, at any rate, and I think, not for him either...

*hugs tessa* I love you, just the way you are! Forgive me if I rambled, or missed the point entirely!

[Dorkalicious]

Wow, tessa...once again -- A thank you for posting this. I was beginning to wonder, considering the different perspectives on subs.

I myself am pretty spirited. Sometimes I wonder if I am too spirited. Requiem seems to be perfectly fine with it. He's okay with the fact that I am independent, and have my own views and opinions, not to mention my own life. But even in play, I fight back a little... Sometimes more than others.

firefly, I think you pinned it with "Realistically Submissive".

[Rhabbi]

tessa,

I see this a lot. Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive, it just means you have not found the proper person to submit to.

I am also with Russell in that a challenge is a lot more fun for me than a simple surrender. If we go back and forth a bit a sub and I can learn a lot more about each other than if I simply walk up and she does whatever I want. The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

I prefer a barely submissive woman to a door mat. If I wanted a doormat I would go to Home Depot.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

This conversation with tessa came about because of Lord Hemloc's personal ad. He was looking for a slave which I have never considered myself to be. I've never wanted to be a slave due to some negative feelings about the whole idea of just giving in completely, and if I take an honest look at myself, I'm barely even submissive. However, upon reading the ad, it touched something way down deep in my soul. The problem is that deep inside my soul there's a hole you don't wanna see. It's an ugly, foul, black abyss where madness rules, and if I listen to the whispers of the demons that dwell down there for very long, I begin to long for death to come and take me. This madness interferes with my need to submit, and it is definitely a need because when dominance is withheld from me I am greatly frustrated and unhappy. I imagine this is quite confusing to my dominant since I resist him at every opportunity. Why? I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I believe it's due to absolute terror. I can remember when just the thought of being collared would almost send me into a panic attack, but I still kept searching...my need driving me onward in spite of the fear. When I read "Story of O" based on a friend's recommendation, I thought it was very erotic, but I was troubled for O. I was angry with her each time she gave in to the demands of Rene who obviously didn't love her at all. I was angry because I'm also guilty of having let myself be used by people who didn't deserve to lick the bottom of my shoes. I was hopeful about Sir Stephen, only to discover that my worst fears were realized in the end. I have trust and abandonment issues for good reason, and the book echoes the questions that I ask myself. If I do everything he wants, will he love me or despise me? Does he love me, or is he using my need to be loved and accepted to manipulate me as has happened throughout my life? What if I surrender myself completely to his will only to be abandoned when he tires of me? That right there would be the death of me for sure because I don't think I could ever give myself to someone like that more than once. Other questions also continue to nag me. What if I am never able to surrender? What if no one is willing or able to break through? I will be a very miserable person since I can't go back to vanilla. *sigh* I've resolved to keep trying. It's the only choice I have, really. Some progress is being made though not as much as I would like, so I'm not only struggling with disappointing him but also myself. It definitely helps to have a kindred spirit to talk to while drinking a Ruby Relaxer and daydreaming about riding...um....horses.

tessa, we are a team, so you are not alone! *hugs* Now, we need to think of an appropriate name for our team and get some cute uniforms, preferably something with a very short skirt and maybe some of those new-fangled thingies you call "panties."

[Dorkalicious]

I think it really does take finding that "one" to submit to. Though I "fight" Requiem, I don't struggle nearly as much as I did before (other relationships*). Being under his complete control, being able to give him that much trust... It's an amazing feeling. He hasn't abused it at all, and though we have a lot of the relationship to go (At least I would love to believe so ) I doubt he ever will.

It's amazing to think about bdsm relationships. I've been finding that they are actually just like vanilla, with a different perspective.

-Finding "the one"
-Trust
-Communication
-Responsibility
-Give and Take


Honestly, what is the difference?


*Could honestly be that he has a genuine interest in it too

Oh dear....I've gone on a tangent, haven't I?

[Slave Kitty Sivesh]

I agree with your post tessa and Understand where you are coming from. And I think finding the right person to sumit to is a big thing. I am currently in training now with my master, and I struggle with it because I am strong willed, and out in the real world I like to be in control (i.e. with my job). But I want to be the best slave I can for her, and I know I am capable. It just takes work on both our parts

[tessa]

Taking this on a response by response basis. All this feedback is just incredible! Thank you all!

Sir Russell, my sincere appreciation to you for what you said. You allow us to see that the challenge we don't necessarily want to be but are anyway is worth the effort and energy. You said it just right with this:

a challenge is welcome, why else would we call it training. Know that we will be there on your bad days, even if you hurt us with your words and actions because we know how hard what you do for us is.

Thank you for understanding.

My advice to anyone dealing with past events or attitudes rearing their ugly heads: take action and deal with it.

jeanne, outstanding advice. I appreciate it so much from you because of the meaning and insight you surround that advice in. You know the struggle. And there's been a shift in paradigm due to your differentiation between "give up" and "accepting". Thank you for opening my mind to the idea of what those terms can mean. And just thank you for all you said. Every word you put there is a bright light for me. ~hugs you tight~

Tom, I love how you cut straight through to the bone and expose all the rawness. I learn from you, whether it's discussing gay marriage or discussing the essentials of D/s. And I'll go ahead and say it...you're right. Fear shouldn't rule us. Without the risk, one gains nothing but regret. Thanks for being so direct about what is and isn't effective. Makes so much sense.

margaret, Red was my inspiration for the thoughts you see here. And because of you being here with us, I feel even less alone. ~hugs~

Oh firefly, you didn't ramble and you certainly didn't miss the point. Your words- "realistically submissive", "This is what you wanted. Take it.", "cling to who I am"- this and all the rest, you just knew what and how to say it so that it rang true for me. Thank you for that.

D-lish, Requiem, in my opinion, is one seriously fortunate Dom. I'm glad there's not one set of rules on just who we are and who we can become. I'm very happy for you.

The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

Well said, Rhabbi. Learning each other is the key.

I swear, Red, you took thoughts right out of my mind and posted them here. And yes, amazing! Hey, as long as we're struggling together, right? ~huggles~

Yep, a team. But I can't believe you said anything about those "panties" thingees. Still, under a very short skirt, if they were just the right kind, they might be kinda cute. A new experience, at least.

[tessa]

But I want to be the best slave I can, and I know I am capable. It just takes work on both our parts

What a wonderful truth to have and to share. Thank you!

[Beswitchingly Positive]

tessa,

I see this a lot. Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive, it just means you have not found the proper person to submit to.

I have to say there was a time that I never would have agreed with this.

Rhabbi, I have to tell you, now, I think you are right Sir!

I think this is right on, for me anyway. I have always longed for a proper man to submit to, loved the idea of letting go in this way and wondered so many times if it was even possible for me (being a strong willed creature) to do so. I always knew he was out there. I met "Him" a couple of times, but timing was bad in some way, circumstance outside the bedroom, whatever it was it just did not work out to a level past "barely submissive."

Luckily, I have met a man who, somehow, (I think it has to do with our chemistry togther, and lucky timing...) he has inspired me to submit. I found the proper person to submit to at the proper time, not just on an intellectual and physical level, but completely, with my entire heart.



I am also with Russell in that a challenge is a lot more fun than a simple surrender. If we go back and forth a bit a sub and I can learn a lot more about each other than if I simply walk up and she does whatever I want. The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

I prefer a barely submissive woman to a door mat. If I wanted a doormat I would go to Home Depot.

Excitement invloves tension, resistance, friction. I understand the mental shift, the deeper feeling of being able to let go.

I can give Him the power, let him do the deciding, and willingly follow his wishes...not that I never resist, not that I have no ideas of my own...he is growing to expect certain, hmm, creative acquiescence.

If he did all I want when I want it, well, it would get predictable. I would not want a predictable Dom. Blah.

The amazing feeling is caring oh so much that he gets what He wants from me. When I know he is happy with me, this is when my deep submissive need is most satisfyed. The whole point of it, His happiness satisfies me and I am His.

Flip the switch.

Ok, on the other side, the object of my desire to dominate, currently a beautiful, tragically unsure woman I know...if she was not so in need of direction, we would not have the dynamic we have. She might submit to me sexually, eventually. We have repeatedly discussed this, but we both know it is a big step. In the meantime, I am helping her fix some things in her life, work on some of her baggage. How will she know what she wants until she is less burdened in herself? When she is more stable, then maybe, if she still is asking me for sex...funny, I feel desire for her, but it evaporates because she is not disciplined enough in her mind. I want to know she is happy enough with herself to really know what she wants, and if it is me, well, as long as it is okay with the Man...

I am happy with her as we are because I love her, not the idea of her doing something in particular.

I have ideas, but the ideas of how deep it could go are not the relationship itself.

She wants to fix her problems, to grow and learn, and I am honored that she has chosen me as a friend, and as sexy as she is this never has to involve sex. Ever feel like something is big and inevitable? It just feels like a natural progression, for me to continue be this increasingly dominant, sexual person for her, and for her to be more and more eager for my approval. We both are loving it.

Submission is trained out of us by the culture. In America we are encouraged to climb over each other, to get "on top", join that rat race, bigger house bigger car, become the boss, make more money... arrrrgh...is this really the dream? Control of money and people are powers falsely equated to satisfaction by many.

Getting control of myself and therefore getting what will satisfy me, this is my goal.

Am I close, oh wise Rhabbi? Is that kind of what you meant by 'trained out of you by the culture'?

For me, a large part of the amazing satisfaction I feel--having found a proper man to dominate me in a way that inspires such a deep feeling of submission--is letting go. When I let go of how I thought it should be, started floating with Him instead of swimming upstream, that's when it felt deep.

He lifts the stress of my natural ability to be the strong responsible woman that I actually am. I am a switch, but I do not feel 'barely submissive' with him.

When I think I have been too cold or blunt with my girl, I ask her if I have been too hard on her, and she hugs me and says "no no no, I like it when you talk to me like that, it helps me, please don't stop", I feel deeply dominant, like I am doing a good job.

I see no conflict; I am strong and capable. With Him, I willingly submit. With her, I responsibly lead. These are strong positions for me. They are not mutually exclusive. Letting go my own self doubts and anxieties and cultural "training" has helped me with both sides of me.

There seem to be plateaus, levels if you will, that I reach as I gain experience in both dominance and submission.

I have to have both.

The delicious power to help my girfriend see her gifts by guiding her, and the gift of power to my man so that he may reach a greater satisfaction (and that I may benefit from his wisdom and strength) are both possible because I am with the proper people at the proper time in our lives.

However it plays out, It all comes down to properly pleasing myself.

I gave up thinking I knew how things should be, and started believeing in myself and my ability to find my own happiness. Even when I had no lovers at all.

tessa, this is a very cool, deep thread. Reading all these ideas and explaining myself helps me to clarify my own feelings.

You have helped me learn.

thanks for this thread tessa, you rock, and not 'barely'...

BP

[tessa]

Getting control of myself and therefore getting what will satisfy me, this is my goal.

You said so much, so many wonderful thoughts to take in and hold close, but the one above is what reached out and stroked me. Wisdom is a beautiful thing.

I will be diving into your words over and over again, letting them soak in deeply.

Thank you, Ms. Beswitchingly.

~hugs~
tessa

[tessa]

No, it isn't as far as you can hope to go. Here's how I've begun to be more of what I dream: give in. Not give up, just give in. Give in to the reality that some days the only way I get to demonstrate my submissiveness to him is by making him a drink, cooking supper, asking about his day and being there for him to turn to in the night. No play, no ritual, no BDSM stuff to it. But, always be ready, willing, encouraging, communicating and most importantly, listening. I miss the gems of hope and dominance and love that I'm so hungrily seeking when I'm just nodding my head and saying "Uh huh" while I think of other things.

Others never know their influence unless you let them know. So jeanne, I'm letting you know.

Earlier tonight, I was in the middle of my "uh-huh" while I thought of a million other things. I caught myself doing it and your words flooded in. Literally made me react physically, as if someone had shaken me hard. So I got up from where I was, went over to sit at his feet and I listened, truly listened. We shared a moment that was important for us both. It never would have happened without you and your words here. My friend, thank you.

Hugs-
tessa

[jeanne]

Okay, tessa, here's a first for me on the forums - you made me cry. I am so touched and honored that something I said was helpful to you - and especially that you and DD had a special moment that you might have missed.

Much love,
jeanne

[TomOfSweden]

tessa,

I see this a lot. Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive, it just means you have not found the proper person to submit to.

I am also with Russell in that a challenge is a lot more fun for me than a simple surrender. If we go back and forth a bit a sub and I can learn a lot more about each other than if I simply walk up and she does whatever I want. The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

I prefer a barely submissive woman to a door mat. If I wanted a doormat I would go to Home Depot.

Hmmm..... Russels and your post got me thinking. Is it really challenge you, Russel and I are after? Surely it's not challenge for the sake of challenge? And surely all Doms want women who want to be doormats, or we wouldn't be drawn to being Masters? With challenge, do you mean a woman/sub who speaks up and tells you what it is she needs, and the challenge is to give her that? The reason why I don't want a docile door mat isn't that it would be boring, (which I'm sure it wouldn't be) but the fact that I would know that I'm probably not giving her what she needs. In my experience the real challenge is to get a sub to share the demands she has in way other than having a tantrum and standing, tears streaming, with her bags packed in our hall.

[tessa]

I've been thinking some more on this, thanks to all these incredible replies.

First off, the term "doormat", used in any context with the topic of submission, is bugging the heck out of me. No disrespect meant to anyone. Submission, in whatever form it appears, whether it be high-spiritedness or quiet dignity or anything in between, brings with it a great amount of power. To deem any of it with the term "doormat" is doing all submissives an injustice. When that term is used, I think of misguided souls who just don't know their worth yet.

Tom brought this shadow of a thought to the forefront of my mind when he said:

And surely all Doms want women who want to be doormats, or we wouldn't be drawn to being Masters? The reason why I don't want a docile door mat isn't that it would be boring, (which I'm sure it wouldn't be) but the fact that I would know that I'm probably not giving her what she needs. In my experience the real challenge is to get a sub to share the demands she has in way other than having a tantrum and standing, tears streaming, with her bags packed in our hall.

Ok, ignoring the word "doormat", what he said was what I wanted to say and didn't know how to say it. The dynamic of the D/s or M/s relationship is about someone having control and someone giving up control. Of course, there are extremely varying degrees of what "control" means to every individual, but without both those parts, not much but sheer frustration is going to be going on, right? For some Dominants, the idea that a submissive would be docile and immediately obedient is a massive turn-on. But for other Dominants, being involved with someone struggling with their need to submit is what they prefer. Ok, that's my thoughts on it anyway.

Some submissives are very aware and cognizant of who they are and what they want to be. They push a Dominant's limits as much as the Dominant pushes their's. But for some submissives, they are still in the learning process, trying to understand all of it and where their place is. They need (we need) guidance and patience and training, to get us to the point of assured awareness and knowing our worth. I'm learning from the Dominants here that the challenge submissives like that present doesn't make us worthless or useless. We aren't for everyone, but neither is every Dominant appealing to every submissive (sorry Doms ) It's about the journey of "more"- finding each other and discovering just how far and deep the relationship can go.

How's that for thinking out loud?

tessa

[TomOfSweden]

I'm learning from the Dominants here that the challenge submissives like that present doesn't make us worthless or useless.

Isn't the notion contradictory? Just the fact that a submissive is willing to let herself be humiliated by me and be my doormat, makes her highly valued and useful. I'm marrying my doormat on Saturday. I value her more than life itself. I can't think of a more valuable person in my entire life.

She's highly submissive. I don't like the term docile, because in my mind that's connected to strong medication...but she always obeys my every command. So far since we've met she has only gone against my orders once, and it was quite a trauma for her, (and this was before the whipping).

But she's also very opinionated, (not to mention smarter than me) and we have plenty of debates and discussions about a variety of subjects. My point is that I see no conflict between being extremely submissive and training your Master to suit your needs.

After all I do love her and I try my best to make her happy, without violating my own highly selfish needs.

[pixie_dust]

tessa,

Thank you so much for starting this thread. I haven't commented until now, because I have been wondering so much about the same questions you have asked. (yep, I was lurking...lol)

With that, I'd just like to say that I really appreciate all of the information that everyone has shared. It's really been a great help for me.

*big hugs*

[Flaming_Redhead]

First, I grew quickly tired of subs that were no challenge and very docile. Where is the challenge in that and where is the joy and honor of seeing someone you love work so very hard to be what both of you want her to be. morgan wants to be the best slave ever for me and for her with her strength, intelligence, and trust issues that is quite the dream.

Second, for the Dom a challenge is welcome, why else would we call it training. Know that we will be there on your bad days, even if you hurt us with your words and actions because we know how hard what you do for us is.

That's been one of my questions, also. Where's the fun in having an automatic push-button sub from the very beginning? I also wish to be the best sub ever, and believe me, it's a pretty ambitious notion. I'm not ashamed to admit that I need lots of training/discipline. The last thing you said...I need that even more.

If the problem is you, (ie nobody will ever earn your trust) then just go for it. Take the plunge even if you are scared, (under the condition that you think you have found a good one, bad doms are a dime a dozen). It's better to have a heart broken in a thousand bits repeatedly than never.

That's kinda what I did. I finally jumped, but now I'm clinging to the edge of the pool like a frightened child who's screaming, "No! No! No! I'll drown!"

Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive

I couldn't agree with you more. I've known all along that I've had some pretty bad "training." When I first told my best friend, Amy, about the lifestyle I was pursuing, she laughed her ass off and then asked a serious question. Why? She's known me forever. She calls me a "free spirit." The questions she asked were the same ones I've asked myself. Why do I want someone, a man, telling me what to do, especially with my background? *shrugs* I can't really answer that, except it's a need so strong that I walked away from a 10-year marriage.

margaret, Red was my inspiration for the thoughts you see here. And because of you being here with us, I feel even less alone. ~hugs~

I swear, Red, you took thoughts right out of my mind and posted them here. And yes, amazing! Hey, as long as we're struggling together, right? ~huggles~

Yep, a team. But I can't believe you said anything about those "panties" thingees. Still, under a very short skirt, if they were just the right kind, they might be kinda cute. A new experience, at least.

*sings* "You're the meaning in my life. You're the inspiration. You bring feeling to my life. You're the inspiration." Ok, I only do karaoke when I'm REALLY drunk (think 3 swallows of moonshine). *ggls* It's elementary, my dear tessa! Great, though barely submissive, minds tend to think alike, which is a good thing, too, 'cause I'd hate to be the only wannabe doormat in these here parts! *huggles* Of course the panties will be cute! I was thinking of a schoolgirl uniform with ruffled panties underneath. *weg*

[Dorkalicious]

Why do I want someone, a man, telling me what to do, especially with my background? *shrugs* I can't really answer that, except it's a need so strong that I walked away from a 10-year marriage.[/COLOR]

The fact that you walked away from a ten year marriage is astounding. I'm not sure how many people could do that, but I know what you mean when you say that the desire/need was that strong. It was a big reason of why I walked away from my last relationship. It was beginning to get physically painful to think about not having that aspect in the relationship...

[Flaming_Redhead]

The fact that you walked away from a ten year marriage is astounding. I'm not sure how many people could do that, but I know what you mean when you say that the desire/need was that strong. It was a big reason of why I walked away from my last relationship. It was beginning to get physically painful to think about not having that aspect in the relationship...

Lots of people were astounded! I didn't know anything about BDSM, other than some soft porn. All I knew was that I was sick and tired of being in charge. I made all the decisions, from where we went to dinner to where we spent our vacations to buying our home to when we had sex and in which position, and then dealing with any fallout from those decisions pretty much all by myself. I guess I expected more from a man 11 years my senior. No matter how I tried to tell him to step up and be a man, in the bedroom or out, he only whined that he didn't know what to do. I've spent my entire adult life topping him from the bottom as well as blatently topping him, and he only showed some backbone when it came to custody of our son. I'm living with the ramifications of my decisions, but I feel it was the only way to keep my sanity, literally. I had 2 bouts of severe depression during my marriage. The first time, 3 years into the marriage, I was in complete denial of what the problem was and opted for medication, titrating up to the highest dose of Serzone, which was 300 mg a day, for 2 years. The second time, 4 years after going off the medication, I opted for marriage counseling which didn't save the marriage but made me realize it was okay to let go. I only weighed 99 pounds when I left him. I feel much better now, though I still suffer from insomnia. I have a chance to start over, and I'm trying really hard not to be the bossy, nagging bitch I was with him. It's no easy feat, especially when showing respect for a man doesn't exactly come naturally to me.

Wow! Where'd all that come from? *ggls* Back on topic, y'all!

[gagged_Louise]

This is a really vital thread and I have to give credit first to Tessa for launching it and to you Red, for being this amazingly open-hearted, bringing us this close to your pain:

If I take an honest look at myself, I'm barely even submissive. However, upon reading the ad /by Lord Hemloc/ it touched something way down deep in my soul. The problem is that deep inside my soul there's a hole you don't wanna see. It's an ugly, foul, black abyss where madness rules, and if I listen to the whispers of the demons that dwell down there for very long, I begin to long for death to come and take me. This madness interferes with my need to submit, and it is definitely a need because when dominance is withheld from me I am greatly frustrated and unhappy. I imagine this is quite confusing to my dominant since I resist him at every opportunity.

The things you're touching on are sensitive and hard to own up because the standard image of a sub is someone who happily gives up a huge chunk of her freedom with one bold stroke, signs the slave contract and allows herself to be Dominated. Yup. that one has a pull on me and on both of you - at the same time i think we get it's half fantasy, at least in that "pure" form, and real life and your real person enters in with their obstacles. In fact I don't think many people here could give a fully rational reason why you wish to submit, it's just a part of you, something you discover, and like Firefly, I sometimes have to tell myself "okay, this is what you want, and no matter what you think or excuse, this submissiveness is in you and has to be embraced".

[tessa]

I'm marrying my doormat on Saturday. I value her more than life itself. I can't think of a more valuable person in my entire life.

Only Tom could say this and make me want to weep girly, emotional, heart-felt tears. And do so, knowing he used the term "doormat" just to make a pointed point.

*sings* "You're the meaning in my life. You're the inspiration. You bring feeling to my life. You're the inspiration." Ok, I only do karaoke when I'm REALLY drunk (think 3 swallows of moonshine). *ggls* It's elementary, my dear tessa! Great, though barely submissive, minds tend to think alike, which is a good thing, too, 'cause I'd hate to be the only wannabe doormat in these here parts! *huggles* Of course the panties will be cute! I was thinking of a schoolgirl uniform with ruffled panties underneath. *weg*

Oh now, I did that moonshine thing once. Once. I sang, too. I called up the principal of the high school and sang, "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine..." No. I have no idea why. Just seemed the thing to do at the time. Hence the "once". Red, Red...you aren't the only wannabe...umm...outside the door, shoe-wiping thingee in these here parts. and I think the ruffled panties idea is brilliant! We so gotta do that! Love ya, girlie! ~huggles~

pixie (or should I say lurking beauty? ) this information has been extremely helpful for me too. This place is just incredible.

D-lish, I am so happy to know you are finding what you need and want in a relationship. Painful has a new meaning for you these days, doesn't it??

[Dorkalicious]

Hehe, tessa, that is very true!

Tom - tessa brought your post back up, of which I had apparently missed It's so funny how you can say such a thing and it brings a grin to my lips (not a smile, a grin dammit, lol!)

FR - I can't say much more then just that I am very proud of you! Not only did you see the problem, you took initiative to fix it, and you also take responsibility for your poor actions. We all live and learn sweetie, I think you are definitely an example of that

[Logic1]

Lots of people were astounded! I didn't know anything about BDSM, other than some soft porn. All I knew was that I was sick and tired of being in charge. I made all the decisions, from where we went to dinner to where we spent our vacations to buying our home to when we had sex and in which position, and then dealing with any fallout from those decisions pretty much all by myself. I guess I expected more from a man 11 years my senior. No matter how I tried to tell him to step up and be a man, in the bedroom or out, he only whined that he didn't know what to do. I've spent my entire adult life topping him from the bottom as well as blatently topping him, and he only showed some backbone when it came to custody of our son. I'm living with the ramifications of my decisions, but I feel it was the only way to keep my sanity, literally. I had 2 bouts of severe depression during my marriage. The first time, 3 years into the marriage, I was in complete denial of what the problem was and opted for medication, titrating up to the highest dose of Serzone, which was 300 mg a day, for 2 years. The second time, 4 years after going off the medication, I opted for marriage counseling which didn't save the marriage but made me realize it was okay to let go. I only weighed 99 pounds when I left him. I feel much better now, though I still suffer from insomnia. I have a chance to start over, and I'm trying really hard not to be the bossy, nagging bitch I was with him. It's no easy feat, especially when showing respect for a man doesn't exactly come naturally to me.

Wow! Where'd all that come from? *ggls* Back on topic, y'all!

o.m.g that was deep from the heart.
really touching and I definitely feel your pain and hardships there. I do hope you find exactly what you are looking for.
Good job working to solve your problem! You are one strong woman!

Submission is a gift given from the sub to the Dominant and not the other way around.

[TomOfSweden]

Only Tom could say this and make me want to weep girly, emotional, heart-felt tears. And do so, knowing he used the term "doormat" just to make a pointed point.

he he. Pointy, that's me. Stab, stab.

[jeanne]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic since tessa brought it up and have been following the posts closely. I, too, like firefly's term: realistically submissive. To me it means to be submissive to the extent that I'm able at any given moment, understanding that sometimes real life just gets in the way. We will always fall short on anything that we want to do really well, simply because we're human and have trouble accepting that sometimes, good enough is good enough. After the months that I have been reading posts here, and knowing myself pretty well, I think that many submissives are perfectionists! We want to be perfect for our Doms - perfectly submissive, perfectly beautiful, perfectly sexy... Well, who the heck defines what perfect is? I vow, beginning now, to let my husband define perfect - not me, not society, not anyone else. I know (not just believe) that he is happy with me, as I am today. He likes the extent of submissiveness that I exhibit, he thinks I'm beautiful and sexy. I have no need to worry beyond that! I daresay that all of us with loving, sometimes deliciously harsh Doms in our life can say exactly the same thing. Let's celebrate that, rather than tear ourselves down.

Whew - didn't realize there was a rant inside me waiting to come out - it's over now!