On honesty and feminism

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hello, cheeseburger. First, I’d like to thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I always appreciate different perspectives – even if I don’t agree with them. Second, I have been to urbandictionary.com before. A purely academic observation: it’s an amusing collection of user-submitted explanations of slang words & invented terminology, as well as opinion-based, sometimes hilarious definitions for real words (often with just a pinch of sarcasm & even smaller amounts of evidence to back them up). I opt to rely on the actual dictionary for my definitions, but thanks all the same for the recommendation. Third, the opposite of feminism (humanism? lol thanks, crikey ) is sexism, which I don’t think has any place in D/s. Nor do I ascribe to a single bit of sexism, both professing & living the opposite. (Wonder what that makes me….beyond being a hypocrite, of course.) Perhaps some include it in their lifestyle, but it is not a part of mine. So said, I think I should do three things at this point:

1) clarify that I did not mean to imply that I fathom your position on feminism. If anything I’ve posted seems to indicate that, I apologize. And just to let you know, I read each post carefully, so please rest assured that I am reading yours with the same attentiveness.

2) take full responsibility for not recognizing that my several years of study, my 4 degrees in the History of Women & the Psychology of Prejudice, my work to further women’s rights in my daily life (not only through my job as an educator, but also through community activism), my time living in a real-life D/s relationship with tons of research & careful consideration helping us along – oh, & my being a woman living in our male privileged patriarchy (all of which have led me to develop my very own little thoughts & opinions) - cannot possibly compare to the vast experience & obvious breadth of expertise of some others here (such as yourself), both on “feminism & D/s” & on my beliefs/convictions vs. my lifestyle, built on respected resources like the less than 10 posts of consequence that I’ve made on this forum outside the “Fun & Games” section &, undoubtedly, the ever-reliable urbandictionary.com. Again – very sorry. I’ll be sure to remember that the next time I misguidedly post anything that challenges such unmistakably superior astuteness on topics such as these.

3) offer that the best course is often to simply agree to disagree. For example, I see neither of us convincing the other of our position on this topic and so think that it’s probably a waste of time for either of us to continue down this path. Agreed? Great!

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

Hello, Fantassy – Thanks for posting! Great points – especially about restricting D/s to certain portions of our lives. Sounds very much like my own relationship. Oh, and the squashing of assholes Wonderful post. Hugs!

Hi, Warbaby! Thanks for the PM, by the by, and I agree with you – having read a number of Fantassy’s posts, I almost always think they are spot-on. Hugs

Hi, Mothbrad. Excellent examples. And, sadly, you could go on….and on….and on. It’s a shame there are so many examples out there. Wonderful point, as well, on fantasy vs. D/s relationships.

Hello, my king – all I have to say to your post is: indeed. Love you.

Hi, baby girl. Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread. It is appreciated! I was wondering: if things should get out of hand at any point (which I REALLY hope doesn’t happen since I, too, am enjoying this discussion & wish for it to continue in a civil and adult manner) – you might be able to delete any flaming posts rather than shutting down the thread? It’s exceedingly interesting to see so many points of view with such great communication on topics of this nature & I’d hate to see it stop over something like that. Anyhoo – thanks again & keep up the good work!

Hi, NatalieD – excellent question! As to your second question…my opinion would be a simple “doubtful.”

Hugs & Spankins!
SS

[Warbaby1943]

Great post Stone'sSlut. I like your suggestion for baby girl, I hope she heeds it. I hope she thinks it is good too. It would be a shame to lock such an interesting thread.

[nk_lion]

Thx for starting this thread.
I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory, whereas you've proved in your case that it isn't.

[Mothbrad]

Great post, Stone'sSlut - very thoughtful reading for a Sunday morning

On a similar thread, a newspaper I read this morning had a light hearted article by a woman about things that men don't know about women (a common topic for light hearted articles). Anyhow, one of the points was that women who are in control out of the bedroom like to be submissive in the bedroom, and vice versa. Although it's a gross generalisation (and one that, as a man, I won't add any more comment on), it's an interesting thing to consider in the context of this discussion.

[cheeseburger]

For example, I see neither of us convincing the other of our position on this topic and so think that it’s probably a waste of time for either of us to continue down this path. Agreed? Great!

Sure.

If you're too busy ridiculing urbandictionary.com and myself, listen to nk_8950:

I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory

Basically, he's saying (and I tried to say) you appear contradictory.

For me, the simplest explanation holds. For everyone else, it doesn't. Fine by me.

And a little off topic, but words like 'hyopcrite,' and 'stupid' aren't really insults, IMO. It's just a very direct way of saying what you think. Only example I can think of is medicine, where I actually heard someone say "charlie brown hit the lateral aspect of the occiput." Bleeding jesus, just say they guy hit the side of his head. Lateral aspect my ass.

/end rant.

[Stone]

well the urbandictonary is stupid its like when they tried to make ebonics acceptible in the schools which is basically telling a whole group of people you are too stupid to learn how to read and write english properly.Thats insulting and obserd.

maybe posting someones entire post instead of 9/10's of it .would be a good idea as well

Thx for starting this thread.
I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory, whereas you've proved in your case that it isn't


Wow did you carefully read this post at all or are you just taking bits and pieces of it to suit your case?

So i guess i can say you appear like someone with a bone to pick and no real knowlage or understanding.

by the way saying you lack knowlage or understanding is not an insult cause i say so and i even looked it up on urbandictionary

[cheeseburger]

well the urbandictonary is stupid its like when they tried to make ebonics acceptible in the schools which is basically telling a whole group of people you are too stupid to learn how to read and write english properly.Thats insulting and obserd.

maybe posting someones entire post instead of 9/10's of it .would be a good idea as well

Thx for starting this thread.
I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory, whereas you've proved in your case that it isn't


Wow did you carefully read this post at all or are you just taking bits and pieces of it to suit your case?

So i guess i can say you appear like someone with a bone to pick and no real knowlage or understanding.

by the way saying you lack knowlage or understanding is not an insult cause i say so and i even looked it up on urbandictionary

Let's settle the urbandictionary.com thing once and for all. It defines slang words which are not in conventional dictionaries. Because it's created by anonymous users, 99% if it is bs.

See, I even quoted your entire post! I got a little lost halfway through, but no biggy.

[~hellish one~]

oh for the love of god!! you guys are adults! ACT LIKE IT! stop picking on each other! you should be worrying more about getting this thread back on topic. if i see one more off topic post that is designed to do nothing more than piss someone else off, i will lock this thread and report you to the Admin!

do not ruin a good thread with your petty bickering.

thank you.
bg

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hi, again, Warbaby! Thank you Looks like we’re in the good, so far. Let’s hope it stay on topic & civil. Hugs!

Hi, nk_8950! Thanks for posting. I’ll say you’re welcome, though I think at least part of the credit should go to cadence (for asking the question that started it all) & cariad (for moving it here). I think that many of us struggle with defining what being a strong woman means and what having a D/s relationship with a very strong woman entails. Much of my own background and education seemed to set (my perceptions of) feminism & D/s at odds – so I understand your position. It was only through painstaking growth in my understanding of both through further research and experience that I was able to discern the compatibility of my beliefs and lifestyle without compromising either. As several people have mentioned – the agreements you and a partner would come to as far as your boundaries, in which parts of your life together she shall submit, etc. may help in clarifying how your partner may live an independent life in the world while being submissive in your relationship. That’s really what it comes down to, IMO – agreements and choices between the two of you about the exchange of power. I wish you good luck in finding everything you wish for.

Hello, again, Mothbrad. Thank you – both for your praise & the info on the article. Very interesting, indeed. Even gross generalizations, I suppose, can hit the side of a barn now and then

Hello, again, cheeseburger. I don’t see anything ridiculing urbandictionary.com in my post – I just defined it more tactfully & completely than simply stating that it’s “B.S.” As to ridiculing you – LMAO! Hun - you started this whole dialogue by tossing out rather derogatory statements, continued it by “ranting” (your word, not mine), & now claim to be the victim of ridicule? Honestly, nothing I posted was meant as an attack on you personally. I just find that with your disclaimers of “no flame wars” & “academic observations” aside, just about everything you’ve posted appears to have a tone of derision & condescension. Coupled with a very selective reading of others’ posts & an almost wholesale disregard to the questions posed & points made against your arguments/attacks in my & others’ responses - I don’t know how you expected people to react to your “slap & run” posts. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings by using facts to dispute your opinions. I do apologize.

Moving on….Without presuming to speak for nk_8950, my read of his post was not that I appear contradictory, but rather that his background made these two things contradictory for him. Reading his quote in its entirety, I believe he also mentions that I have “proved in [my] case that it isn’t.” Fascinating place to tourniquet the quote….

Interesting - for me, when it comes to the complexity of human beings, their lives, & the further complications of beliefs & philosophies, the simplest explanation doesn’t always apply. It’s wonderful how the world is made up of so many different perspectives!

Knowing little about you, I cannot speak to why you might think that terms like hypocrite & stupid aren’t insulting – particularly the manner in which they have been used here. Nor can I think of any context in which using those “direct” terms wouldn’t appear to be an insult. Perhaps this is yet another thing we should just agree to disagree on…

P.S. Kudos on posting a whole quote.

MasterStone: Maybe it makes me a little twisted, but I didn’t get lost. Sarcasm aside, thanks for making that point.

Now, All – back to feminism & BDSM?

Hugs & Spankins
SS

[Stone]

BDSM and feminism can exists together and do in our lives aswell as many others. The problems start when you start listening to the extreme feminists the femanazis they tend to be the in your face crowd that if you dont believe what they believe you are wrong and a sexist. Its all about what you precieve as feminism if you are with the extreme crowd then of course there is no way a woman can be a sub to a man, But if you believe what the real feminists believe i.e. equal pay for equal work equal rights ect, feminism and D/S can co exist very well. One last thing about the in your face crowd they never seem to let the facts get in their way to prove their point no matter how much the facts are opposed to them.

[~hellish one~]

BDSM and feminism can exists together and do in our lives aswell as many others. The problems start when you start listening to the extreme feminists the femanazis they tend to be the in your face crowd that if you dont believe what they believe you are wrong and a sexist. Its all about what you precieve as feminism if you are with the extreme crowd then of course there is no way a woman can be a sub to a man, But if you believe what the real feminists believe i.e. equal pay for equal work equal rights ect, feminism and D/S can co exist very well. One last thing about the in your face crowd they never seem to let the facts get in their way to prove their point no matter how much the facts are opposed to them.

very well stated. and i agree wholeheartedly. i'm all for equal rights - equal pay..etc. but sometimes...i think extreme feminists actually try to prove that women are better than men in some way. and that is crap of course. women and men are equal. and i can be a submissive and still believe in equal rights for women. i am not submissive to every man in the world...~grins~ just the one.

[gloombunny]

but sometimes...i think extreme feminists actually try to prove that women are better than men in some way. and that is crap of course.

Extremists can take damn near any idea and run it into the ground. I bet if I went around saying that ice cream is a tasty treat on a hot summer day, sooner or later I'd find someone criticizing me for not going far enough and calling me a tool of the ice-cream-hating establishment.

[anonymouse]

Equality is a strange beast. In the context of gender politics, a lot of people seem to think equality means 'sameness'. This narrow definition ignores the concept of fairness, which is what I believe was the original intent of feminism -- that people shouldn't think it's unreasonable for a woman to earn the same (or more) as a man or have the same job opportunities.

Once the notion of sameness entered the argument, it became akin to saying all shoes should be pairs of left ones. This is patently absurd, as even a child will tell you.

For me, equality is about compatibility and the freedom to choose the level of balance within any relationship, whether a personal one, a social one, or a business/professional one.

"This isn't the end of civilization as we know it. This IS civilization as we know it." -- Germaine Greer

anonymouse

[gloombunny]

Equality is a strange beast. In the context of gender politics, a lot of people seem to think equality means 'sameness'.

When you're talking about people in the aggregate? It does. If people are treated differently depending on their gender, then you don't have equality.

This has nothing to do with how any one individual is to be treated, of course.

[nk_lion]

Sure.

If you're too busy ridiculing urbandictionary.com and myself, listen to nk_8950:

Basically, he's saying (and I tried to say) you appear contradictory.

Sry, I think I may have not been clear when I said that the two may be contradictory (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). Stoneslut got it right. It is merely a cultural issue. I don't follow this mindset, but being exposed to it since birth, I have preconceived notions about the world. Women from my cultural background have been oppressed, and unfortunatly are still being oppressed. There are some that break free from the oppression and live their lifes' they choose. These women usually are the no nonsense women who want control in everything (I'm generalising and could possibly be wrong), and just don't seem the submissive type especially due to the fact that they have broken the submissive mold set for them (not the submissive as in lifestyle choice, but more of forced oppression).

Like I said before, this was one topic that has been really great for me because it addresses exactly what I've been thinking for a while if feministic type women can be subs or switches.

Oh and thx Cariad for moving this post to a place that everyone can see and Cadence for asking this question.

[Stone]

I agree with most of what everyone is saying.Its allways the extreme crowd on both sides the muddy the water and there is nothing you can do to change their minds because no matter what you do or say you are wrong.Men and women can be and are equal in the eyes of the law but socally its lagging behind one day it will be true we are close but not there yet. The one last thing i will add to this men and women are equal but diffent ones strenghts balances out the others weakness the ying and yang, together we are at our strongest apart at our weakest.

[gloombunny]

The one last thing i will add to this men and women are equal but diffent ones strenghts balances out the others weakness the ying and yang, together we are at our strongest apart at our weakest.

As long as you acknowledge that the differences are on-average tendencies and not universal traits, and don't look down on people who don't follow the tendencies, then ok...

[Stone]

I agree not even men are equal with each other in all ways so yes its a generalzation on my part and i generally only look down apon the ignorant its one thing to not be "smart" which is ok its the ignorant that drive me nuts,the people who talk out their ass and blow smoke up yours.

[Warbaby1943]

the people who talk out their ass and blow smoke up yours.

I like and agree with that statement.

[STONE'sSLUT]

As long as you acknowledge that the differences are on-average tendencies and not universal traits, and don't look down on people who don't follow the tendencies, then ok...

excellent point.


Warbaby - Me too

[Arria]

I have not even read through the whole thread, but I already love it.

Some women (most self-proclaimed "feminists" I met, really) believe that feminism stands for "hating men and not sleeping with a man; if you are sleeping with a man, hating the act of penetration, and shove that fact into his face at all times (another way of doing this is letting the guy beg for sex and show at all times that you could so easily do without it, etc.)".

That sort of woman caused the highest difficulty in me when I came around to admitting (first to myself and then to others) I really am a sub and want to be used sexually.
They treated me like a traitor and a bad person, just because I happen to like sleeping with a man, and because I happen to like it rough. Big deal!

Thank you, bitches. I am sick and tired of you.
You are not "feminists"; you just are full of fear.
Fear that disguises itself as hatred, as hatred is so much more comfortable to feel than fear is.
I was brave enough to face myself... and I get my desires satisfied in a way that none of you is likely to experience for the rest of your miserable lives.

End of rant. Thanks for listening so far.

[TheVariableX]

I enjoyed reading your post Stones'sSlut.

I found your story about saving, and improving, your marriage through soul deep honestly quite moving. There is something powerful about honesty. I don't really see the point of staying in a relationship without it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

My mom is a feminist. She's one of the man-haters. *nods a lot* On bring your child to work day, a very elderly man politely asked my mom where to find something in the store. His mistake was calling her "hon" in the process. My mom almost snapped his head off, saying "I'm NOT your hon...my name is Susan...and it's on ailse whatever." He probably couldn't have read her name tag unless his face was pressed against her breast, if he could read at all. I wonder how well that would've gone over? *ggls* She has always talked to her husband in a condescending manner. She attends a Christian church regularly but totally rejects the patriarchal teachings inherent in the Bible, saying "What Paul said isn't doctrine." Um..okay...if you say so....*shrugs* She looks at me sometimes as if I'm some kind of alien and has even asked, "Are you MY child?!?" hahahahahahahaha I'm all for equal pay for equal work, equal opportunities, etc. I'm not for so-called affirmative action and lowering standards so women can join the military, medical school, etc. If you can't perform at the same level as a man, too bad so sad! Feminists can be just as sexist as men. They'll foam at the mouth when talking about how oppressed women are, how everyone is out to get them and keep them down, how it's all men's fault because women are never wrong and just victims, that girls shouldn't play with dolls or learn how to cook, etc., when they haven't a clue what true oppression is. I haven't noticed any such oppression. I can apply for any job I'm qualified to have, attend any college provided my scores are acceptable, can have my own checking and savings, own property, vote, marry and divorce whomever, etc. If you want to see true oppression, visit Afghanistan where the police won't intervene in domestic violence because a wife is the literal and actual physical property of her husband, where a woman can't hold certain jobs or go to school and where a woman can't even beg but must send her son out to beg if she's poor. I kinda forgot where I was going with this...except my friends all look at me like I'm the worst kind of scum (maybe that's putting it strongly) because I have a D/s relationship where I'm not the dominant one. They can't fathom that I would choose to submit willingly and do what he says...that this is what I want...and I'm happy. My best friend said it's not healthy. hahahahahahahaha Um..okay...whatever...but while she and her husband are constantly arguing about everything because they both want control, my man and I can enjoy a nice evening out without arguing about where we're going to eat.

[Isabelle90]

Some women (most self-proclaimed "feminists" I met, really) believe that feminism stands for "hating men and not sleeping with a man; if you are sleeping with a man, hating the act of penetration, and shove that fact into his face at all times (another way of doing this is letting the guy beg for sex and show at all times that you could so easily do without it, etc.)".

That sort of woman caused the highest difficulty in me when I came around to admitting (first to myself and then to others) I really am a sub and want to be used sexually.
They treated me like a traitor and a bad person, just because I happen to like sleeping with a man, and because I happen to like it rough. Big deal!

Thank you, bitches. I am sick and tired of you.
You are not "feminists"; you just are full of fear.
Fear that disguises itself as hatred, as hatred is so much more comfortable to feel than fear is.
I was brave enough to face myself... and I get my desires satisfied in a way that none of you is likely to experience for the rest of your miserable lives.

Once again Arria, I love your wise words!

This has been hard for me to reconcile within myself, much less profess to others for the reasons you stated. I've been taught that female submission is wrong.

I'm working on the bravery. But I know about being miserable versus being satisfied. Trying to act in charge made me miserable. Being submissive is rewarding. (Still working on my understanding of this one too!)

My mom is a feminist. She's one of the man-haters. *nods a lot*
...
She looks at me sometimes as if I'm some kind of alien and has even asked, "Are you MY child?!?"
...
My best friend said it's not healthy. hahahahahahahaha Um..okay...whatever...but while she and her husband are constantly arguing about everything because they both want control, my man and I can enjoy a nice evening out without arguing about where we're going to eat.

We may have the same mother! (You have red hair....my mom had red hair.....hmmmmmmm?)

My parents have been divorced for almost 10 years. Mom has had a "friend" for about 6 of those. She refuses to sleep with him. Literally! She won't even sleep in the same bed as the poor guy. She is constantly getting on to him about this or that, exactly the way she treated my dad. (Some people never learn.) She is utterly miserable!

I used to be the person in the car arguing about where we were going to eat. Me, me, me, me, me! If a suggestion was made, it was the wrong one. My, how just a little bit of submission would have made everyone happier!

Thank you SS for this thread!

P.S. The picture of you and your master is just lovely!