your take on the difference between Top, Dom, or Master and bottom, sub and slave

[Sir_Russell]

After 35 years in the life as a Dom, my newbee slave said I was the most terrific top she has known and thought it was a wonderful compliment, but I was insulted.

So my friends lets talk about these terms and what they mean to you.

Top is a player takes little or no responibility for the bottom other then in the scene.

bottom also is a player offering little to the Top but a willing playmate.

Dom is a more then a top takes a sub or bottom to play with but with a sub shoulders responsibility for the sub welfare beyond the scene in an agreed upon manner.

sub is more then a bottom in the life the sub allows and wants more control of her life to the Dom.

Master are Doms that want a slave that needs more control of the slave's day to day life. The Master is directly involved with his slave's well being up to and including a 24 - 7 control. The control of course is limited to the slave agreed upon limits and the limits the Master has pushed beyond the original agreement. The Master may play with a bottom or sub but craves more then either of them is will to give up to him in a long term relationship.

The slave craves an intense level of involvement and control from the Master finds that most decisions are made with or by the Master for the slave. Most slaves in my opinion are stronger more driven people then are subs that take more of an okay do it to me attitude, the slave works hard to honor the Master.

I am a Man/Dom/Master and I love my morgan dearly she is my ideal as a slave, bright beautiful, stubborn but once commited to anything she gives it all that she has to be the best at it. I am a very lucky Master to have this lady struggling to be the best slave.

Tell us if you agree or disagree with my assessment of these terms.

[Aesop]

I have no argument with your definitions of the terms, but I really don't like defining any of this. My submissives have called me the entire range of names you listed and sometimes they fit the definitions you have listed and sometimes they don't. Doesn't really matter to me. I think having a rudimentary knowledge of how the terms are usually used in the community is probably a good idea, but I can't ever see myself getting offended because my submissive gave me a compliment and used the wrong title. I guess what I'm saying it that the words don't matter to me near as much as the intentions of the people I'm playing with; however, to each his own.

[Nikita]

Sir Russell,

I agree with Aesop when he said this, I have no argument with your definitions of the terms, but I really don't like defining any of this.

Don't you think the terms are relative to the relationship the two people have?

[submissivewife]

I've always wondered what everyone's take on defining these terms. For me, I consider myself a wanna be slave. Right now, I am a submissive who wants to serve and be a slave. Just finding a full time Master/Dom/Top is a pain in the butt.

I identify a Dom as being any title they want: Sir, Master, Milord, Daddy, or any other title a Dom chooses. Top vs. Dom....to me I always thought they were the same. Sub vs. bottom I have always thought they were the same as well. To me though, submissive and slave are similar but different in how they serve their Top/Dom/Master/Sir/Milord/Daddy.....etc.

But I like how Sir Russell has defined each differently and well, I just might have to rethink all this.

[Sir_Russell]

Thanks for the feed back.

What I was defining was the different levels of commitment to the life. I was trained after I entered the life by a society that has its roots in europe and a couple of hundred years old.

I have no problem with anyone finding their niche in the life at all. I though take the life very seriously, therefore I am safer to play with then a weekend warrior that is sceneing.

[Nikita]

Thanks for the feed back.

What I was defining was the different levels of commitment to the life. I was trained after I entered the life by a society that has its roots in europe and a couple of hundred years old.

I have no problem with anyone finding their niche in the life at all. I though take the life very seriously, therefore I am safer to play with then a weekend warrior that is sceneing.

That information about your training makes me view the post in a different light.

[Sir_Russell]

Each of us gets training, either from someone they trust, reading about the life, or from the net. I was lucky enough to be discovered by a great Dom and Mentor. I met his mentors and socially other members of the society.

Even in the society I did not accept all they taught, like most of us I took what I needed and made sense to me. Today I am still learning that is a major reason for being here.

Please don't take that statement as a brag it is not. The society also had devil worshipers in it and I took none of their training.

[Tojo]

I have no argument with terms defining roles, apart from the fact that I think we need to remember that we're also about having fun.

I'd hate to put new people off by too much rigidity, I think relationships can change at time goes on, what's important is that both care about each other.

There's got to be a balance between being serious & having fun- that's my mission, to work that out for myself. I couldn't care less what my girls call me, I find that if I'm deserving of a title they'll happily use it.

Tojo

[Sir_Russell]

I was not after dictating a life style to anyone I was merely offering terms and my idea of what they meant. I was asking for others to discuss these commonly used terms that I have found to be used rather carelessly

Please don't feel that I am concerned about how you live the lifestyle, to quote morgan "its all good, peace love twinkies"

[Ozme52]

I was going to put in my 3 1/2 kopeks worth... but this thread seems to have gone from birth to old age in a single day.....

[Sir_Russell]

It is a shame then, maybe it is my belief that words are tools that has me concerned that terms and history of the life has gone so loosy goosy.

There was a group in Colorado that was teaching their newbees that BDSM started after WW2 by black gay men. That is what frightens me, if we don't know more about what we do and who we are how will anyone ever understand how dangerous our form of play can be.

[Aesop]

It is a shame then, maybe it is my belief that words are tools that has me concerned that terms and history of the life has gone so loosy goosy.

There was a group in Colorado that was teaching they newbees that BDSM started after WW2 by black gay men. That is what frightens me, if we don't know more about what we do and who we are how will anyone ever understand how dangerous our form of play can be.

That's an excellent point and one I partially agree with. I don't know that it follows that if a person doesn't know how and when BDSM started they won't practice it safely, but there are too many people out there half-assing their way through BDSM and that makes them dangerous. Your post about your introduction to BDSM makes me view your initial post in a different way too. In a society of people it would be necessary to have distinctions between the titles so everyone would know what you were. Most of us aren't in societies though and I don't like to give people the impression that there is a "right" way to practice the relationship parts of BDSM or that the words are what is most important.

[submissivewife]

I was going to put in my 3 1/2 kopeks worth... but this thread seems to have gone from birth to old age in a single day.....

On the contrary Ozzy,

I am very interested on your views. Please share. I have always wondered others take on the titles in BDSM. I have no real "group" I follow about how these terms are used and how each means differently for each person. As I have mentioned before, I am quite new and still learning all the titles, terms, forms of play, and my own personal development.

Please share your thoughts.

subwife

[Sir_Russell]

I am not trying to brag but most of us old timers, ie before internet, either had no knowledge or we found books that gave us information, some of us were lucky enough to be discovered by a larger group and got to the attend munches and parties, find mentors and partners. Here in my area it was very very hidden from everyone because of social fear and a real fear of the law.

The local groups provided knowledge and protection for the subbies too. When one was hurt badly by a poser we took care of the poser, and put out the word so that he or she was forced to find victims from the general population.

One of my points that I expected some one to pick up on was that the greatest of all Masters would also be a Dom do to the kind of care offered to the sub/slave and that the Master during a scene was Topping.

[Tojo]

I was going to put in my 3 1/2 kopeks worth... but this thread seems to have gone from birth to old age in a single day.....

Yeah I'm with subwife- get back here & post, Oz!

I think the argument here is that while an organisation of sorts with rules & regulation is a great idea in theory, people have seen too many such structures become hang outs for weirdos. Look at the church, look at governments & corporations.

There is no guarantee that someone who has done training, & has many years experience can or will be a better Dom than someone who meets someone & starts playing around.

I speak from experience in the building trade, where many licenced tradespeople do shocking work. Just because someone has a driver's licence & years of experience doesn't make them a good driver.

Russell, don't take this as a personal criticism, you may be the best Dom ever, I have no idea. I'm just trying to point out the conflicts I see.
I commend your efforts, & take the point that many so-called Doms are a menace.

Oh & I don't call anyone Sir, buddy!

Tojo

[Sir_Russell]

Again, I am not saying that there is one way to live the life it is too huge for that. I may be old fashioned though that I consider myself a craftsman in my area of the life, I study it from many different sources, I spend time planning sessions so that I can avoid painful mistakes, that was a lesson taught to me by my Mentor.

I do use the term Sir it was given to me by my Guild and so I use it here and every where in BDSM circles.

I am a modern knight errant or maybe it is that I am an errant knight.

I do what I can, where I can, and love when I can ..... Sir Russell

[Tojo]

Again, no offence - My comments were aimed at those who do try & 'lay the law down'. I can see you're not doing that.

You have my respect for trying to do it properly & taking things seriously, I try to do the same. Anyone who cares about a sub's welfare gets my vote.

Tojo

[Ozme52]

It is a shame then, maybe it is my belief that words are tools that has me concerned that terms and history of the life has gone so loosy goosy.

There was a group in Colorado that was teaching their newbees that BDSM started after WW2 by black gay men. That is what frightens me, if we don't know more about what we do and who we are how will anyone ever understand how dangerous our form of play can be.

And there are groups who try to teach that the Holocaust didn't happen. Some official U.S. Schools, as recently as the 1950's, didn't teach that the South lost the Civil War, and just this year there was a court battle over Intelligent Design.

We all just have to continue to tell and teach the truth as we see it and hope the majority of people will be able to recognize the b.s. for what it is.

----------------

But if you try to put too much structure around an otherwise loose, social, human set of actions, you stifle creativity. For example, if we use your definitions, there is no place for me to exist. I don't fit into your definitions. I actually suspect that most of us don't.

[Ruby]

Hi Sir Russell,

Perhaps your definitions should be qualified as definitions within a consensual relationship since they mention pre-agreed limits.

You make a good point. As a "master", one takes on the roles of top and dom, they are sub-sets of the larger role.

Thus when your "slave" was complimenting you as a top, she wasn't negating your other roles.

The definitions were common with many BDSM glossary's, yet I enjoyed your slant about the desires that drive each relationship.

What threw me was this line:

Most slaves in my opinion are ...

This is where placing labels can lead to elitism.
Whether some one is a sub/slave/switch/dom or whatever role they choose to take, its doesn't make them better or worse, stronger or weaker, than any other role.

In an SSC or RACK relationship, it's all about choice.

I didn't see your definitions related to different levels of committment to the life, but more different levels of committment to a BDSM relationship.

Because of the magic of the Internet & phone, one can be completely submerged in a master/slave or dom/sub relationship, yet have no physical contact with their partner. Do we say then, that these people aren't in the lifestyle? They are in the lifestyle, though they may be practicing it more publically or privately than others.

Times change, philosphies update, yet having a good working set of concepts helps everyone play by a set of rules.

Am looking forward to more of your insights,

Ruby

PS

BDSM has been practiced in one form or another since our earliest recorded history.

Secret societies, like the legendary Hell Fire Club, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hellfire_Club,
have added an aura of mystery.

They've also added a complicated set of bragging rights for clubs who want to claim lineage that dates back to them.

Having a sub who escaped from one of those clubs, I tend to get a little cranky when I hear words like "trained" by such a group. All of my internal alarms go off. Like any club, such training could be an advantage or a detriment.

[Ozme52]

What threw me was this line:

Most slaves in my opinion are ...

This is where placing labels can lead to elitism.

LOL... not to quibble Ruby... but such a line about doms somehow doesn't lead to elitism?

Dom's are by definition elitists. Our labels are meant to separate us from the lesser beings.

[Ruby]

LOL... not to quibble Ruby... but such a line about doms somehow doesn't lead to elitism?

Dom's are by definition elitists. Our labels are meant to separate us from the lesser beings.

Now that explains everything! LOL

[Mad Lews]

LOL... not to quibble Ruby... but such a line about doms somehow doesn't lead to elitism?

Dom's are by definition elitists. Our labels are meant to separate us from the lesser beings.

Being as we seem to be arguing semantics allow me to add a Slovakian Crowns worth of opining.
I am an untrained Dom. At least that's what I believe I am. I have a secure relation with my wife whom I respect and would never consider a "lesser being". She is my equal in every way though we have chosen different roles. When we dance (so to speak) I lead and she follows, but we interact and share the direction in which we travel. I realize you are speaking with tongue implanted firmly in cheek but I do believe there are some unimaginative folk out there who could take you very seriously. a sub/slave/partner is to precious a resource to be squandered on the foolish or unappreciative.

Mad Lews

[submissivewife]

Mad Lew.....where have you been? It's good to see you back.

OH, sorry carry on......

[Tojo]

Yes that's exactly how I see myself, an untrained Dom. Or maybe just a guy who likes playing around a bit & isn't happy with being labelled in what I do.

The girls I play with are certainly no less important than I am, in my mind what I do is for them. As for them being lesser beings, no one who knew them would ever say that!

One other thing to remember with all these categories people are so free with, no two relationships are the same. It seems to be a trend in the community that people should act in a particular way & play a role to suit the 'movement' rather than the special relationship they're in with that one person.

We have little enough freedom in everyday life- no bugger is going to take away any more of mine.

Tojo

[Mad Lews]

Yes that's exactly how I see myself, an untrained Dom. Or maybe just a guy who likes playing around a bit & isn't happy with being labelled in what I do.

Tojo

Hi Tojo
Yes a responsive chord there, It may just be my passive aggressive oppositional disorder but I think I resent the idea of being a "trained Dom." it seems to lack originality might even be seen as predictable and almost tame. Then again mayhap I'm misunderstanding the concept that's happened before.
Don't get me wrong I believe in SSC but I don't think that takes much more than an appreciation of common sense (which I guess isn't that common) and respect for your playmates.

Hi subwife
I'll try to be a bit more visible if you keep writin those hot little tales
Mad

[submissivewife]

right a way Mad Lews, just as soon as I can think of another good hot one.

[Ozme52]

Yes all, I do have my tongue in my cheek, hopefully the use of italics and appropriate emoticons made that clear. (Though the italics got lost in the "quoted" box...)

If the unimaginitive people take offense at my humor, or worse, use it as a basis to validate some misguided belief system, we can correct them at that time. A world without humor is just too boring.

(I once had this girlfriend. Her mother and father were very impressed with me for some unknown reason... maybe because I treated their daughter so well. They went out of their way to make me feel at home and "mom" even cooked a special dinner. Even served wine, a nice blended white. I said I had never been so Chablis treated. Turns out mom had no sense of humor and absolutely no sense of fine punnery.... None-the-less, to this day, I still tell jokes, love a good quip, and there's virtually no restraining myself. Miss the girlfriend though.....)

[Tojo]

Ozme, reading that story makes me glad I joined this forum!

Thanks.

Tojo

[Ozme52]

Heh heh.

It was a memory I just dredged up. Hadn't thought about her in a very long time.

[Sir_Russell]

thanks for all the posts, I am just back from a long weekend with morgan.

I never ever meant that anyone in the life is lessor then anyone else. I understand that each of us has different needs and wants. Each relationship is what it is and if it fills each person up then it is good.

Yes I am proud to have had training but I was a practicing Dom before Leonard found me and recruited me to his society, there I learned history as well as traditions. I took from them what I needed and ignored what I did not approve of, and there was much that I did not approve of then or now. Example making subs practice prostitution to demean them or to have them earn their keep or to recruit new members to the society.

My take on this life is that a Top without a bottom, a Dom without a sub or a Master without a slave (and for that matter the reverse is true for bottom, sub or slave) is not only a sad lonely being but no longer anything.