Fantasy vs. Stark Reality...

[cyndylu]

Originally posted by julise
I have met many in this realm and there are A LOT of people whose appearance actually allude to their personalities...in a very negative way.

Would you expand on that thought with some examples?

And yes, a lot of these people were fat, but for me it wasn't the fat per se but how
they took care of themselves and presented themselves (I believe this notion was also mentioned in a previous post). Most of them were the epitome of fat slobs physically AND mentally.

How many seconds/minutes and what conversation topics do you allocate to make a mental
assessment of someone? The thought of attending a munch makes me so uneasy that I doubt
attendance and intelligent conversation at the same time are possible. Generally speaking,
BDSM is looked upon as “kink” in the vanilla world so what do you do, specify to your friends
that you’re into a lifestyle concept that they can not fathom then expect them to set you up with a
like-minded person? Fat does NOT mean desperate!

everwilling's observation points to the convenience of not knowing, nor caring, where the light switch is.
Note that seeing with eyes wide open can also increase one's pleasure..

Is it possible that everwilling was trying to lighten the tone of the conversation? everwilling’s posts read anything but desperate. Seeing through the use of touch can also increase one’s pleasure.

[Faibhar]

I chose two celebrities purely for sake of illustration in ferverent hopes of providing more of an idea of attractive mature individuals. Unfortunately, I have yet to meet either actors Emma Thompson or Dianna Rigg (sp?), but from what I do know, they are both fine examples of how all of us would hope to become. Grand as both are, perhaps they can better illustrate that age is not an issue.

Again apologies to any overly weighted and wounded egos amongst the BDSM lifestylers.

The last of several multiple q's from one Cyndylu speculates that perhaps a post from everwilling was intended to lighten up the online conversation. Perhaps, but in the larger context possibly even Cyndylu can imagine the benefits of a "lights on" experience.

Lastly, kudos extended to the fair and balanced post of julise. Also, her extended and appreciated gesture, but thank you, no sympathy needed here. Plus, thanx for the new s/n!

[Shadoom]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

That is an incredible callow and superficial statement. You just applied a blanket prejudice to many people.

Most people do not "allow" themselves to get "fat," and fat people do indeed care about themselves. Perhaps a fat person has severe diabetes, or a physical impairment that prevents ready exercise, or a lack of money to afford healthy food...

Perhaps a large person is quite mentally healthy because they don't care what society thinks. A person's character should never be judged by the physical appearance, be it skin color, sex, weight, or hairstyle.

And yes, as a matter of disclosure, I am a rather large fellow. My frame is large, but it carries about 50 pounds more than it should. I care very much about myself; the weight acrued due to two years of being glued in a chair for 12 hours a day in a sweaty heck-hole that makes exercise unpleasant.

I'm back on a high-protien diet, working on moving to a more pleasant clime, and slowly losing weight back to normal. But with my barrel chest and large frame, I'll never be a waif. I wore XXL shirts when I weighed 145 lbs.

[bdsmbill]

You wrote: "i have no wish to be squashed by someone who's like double or even triple my size."

I will have trouble, then. I am 6'2" and about 250 lbs. Some would consider me 20 lbs overweight, but even at 230 lbs I am double the weight of a large percentage of the female population. Luckily taste varies. Some women like big guys. Maybe they like the strength that goes with it. Perhaps there is an appeal that comes from knowing your partner can bench press twice your weight.

BDSMBill

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... that a healthy lifestyle and body can be easily maintained, it is not true that everyone can afford to give it the effort that many people do. My wife and I enjoy walks several times weekly when there's not two feet of snow on the ground and when it's not -30C outside.

However, we live in a small town without the benefit of a "designer" gym with all the trappings. About the only thing we can really afford to do on our limited income, besides our walks, is to play racquetball or swim.

We cannot, for instance, afford a gym membership in Edmonton and then the gas required to visit it regularly. We cannot afford the "low carb," "fat-free," or "healthy" foods all the time. We tried it one month and our grocery bill doubled, because, let's face it, healthy food is expensive.

We do eat well, though, most of the time. We eat our share of veggies and we try to avoid deep frying everything, but hey man, sometimes, you gotta have a burger and some poutine. If you don't, then you're not really living.

The thing is that neither I nor my wife are "obese." We haven't "let ourselves go" either. However, we're not going to live in the poor house or face not paying the rent because we want a healthier lifestyle. When we get the money and the motivation to lose our extra pounds, then we will. Until then, we're pretty damned happy with the way we are.


Now, for my personal opinion on this whole thread. I have been mostly just watching the interplay between members and, for the most part, staying out of things. However, it seems to me that a lot of this thread is purely about vanity.

Vanity is humanity's worst sin. It's insididous and, in my opinion, can be quite revolting. Odd, isn't it? How something that's supposed to be attractive can be so repugnant.

I have a strong dislike for those people that insist on having the "perfect body" or the "perfect face" or even the "perfect pair of breasts." The thing is that your perfect body is the one you work on yourself, without spending five figures a year trying to sculpt it. The perfect face is the one you were given. The perfect pair of breasts is not the one which you went out and bought.

Being fat doesn't mean being ugly. To be very blunt, I find skinny people to be terribly unattractive. I cannot stand looking at some of the pictures posted in these threads and seeing a 90 pound waif with her ribs and hipbones poking out with an obvious fake rack that border on the triple E size. I mean, come on. Get real.

I'd rather see a 150 pound model with wide hips, a narrow waist and large (or not) natural breasts. The ones that couldn't give a shit about cosmetic enhancements and how many hours they're in the gym.

I think the media has set an unattainable standard for beauty today. Fifteen year old girls are going out and getting breast implants because they want to be more like the people they see on TV. Well, a fifteen year old doesn't need implants, they need to grow them on their own and see where they stop. At least give the bump on their chest a chance to mature.

This is the sort of tripe that the vain, media-induced, fashion mongering society of today has brought about. I can guarantee that the youth of America would benefit by seeing models of regular size, rather than size 0 twigs with little water baloons sewn into their chests.

We're teaching our kids to be vain, shallow, worthless little narcissists by preaching to them the values of todays' society. Those of you that believe you have to "look perfect" and have the "perfect mate" are buying right into it.

[Faibhar]

Originally, my post related to attempts to really enter into the BDSM lifestyle, and the general unattractiveness of the players, both physically and mentally.

Subsequent posts have frequently related to the some sort of relationship that lumps being overweight with an alluring character/personality. Using this same logic would seem to indicate that in order to enter into an active, real BDSM lifestyle, one should both look and act the part.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Originally, my post related to attempts to really enter into the BDSM lifestyle, and the general unattractiveness of the players, both physically and mentally.

Subsequent posts have frequently related to the some sort of relationship that lumps being overweight with an alluring character/personality. Using this same logic would seem to indicate that in order to enter into an active, real BDSM lifestyle, one should both look and act the part.

I understand what you're saying. However, resultant posts in this thread have led me to believe that the material is becoming less and less about entering the BDSM lifestyle in a satisfying way and more about the way people look and how they should take better care of themselves.

The simple fact of the matter is, if the individual themself is happy with their appearance, then that's what counts. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yes, but that also means that just because you find something unpleasant to look at doesn't mean others do as well.

As for people in the BDSM lifestyle. They are regular people. They are as vast and various as any other random population sampling. Chronicling one group of lifestylers and kinksters as the stick by which all others will be measured demonstrates a lack of forethought and understanding. We all know that not every population can be determined by only seeing one small sampling of it.

[mackie]

Lets face it, two out of three Americans are overweight, including the one out of four who is obese. So if you go to any kind of meeting (outside of the WW succes-story group and some health freaks) you'll bound to find some heavy folks.
If you take the IQ of the president as an avarage for the rest of the population and you are a mensa member yourself, you might become disappointed by the quality of the conversations around you.
If you went to that meeting with the hope that it would resemble some of your favorite stories on this site,.....
Your reality-check just bounced...

[cyndylu]

Originally posted by mackie
Your reality-check just bounced...

mackie, you hit the nail on the head! That statement also made coffee come out of my nose - good one!

[-angelstar-]

Originally posted by bdsmbill
You wrote: "i have no wish to be squashed by someone who's like double or even triple my size."

I will have trouble, then. I am 6'2" and about 250 lbs. Some would consider me 20 lbs overweight, but even at 230 lbs I am double the weight of a large percentage of the female population. Luckily taste varies. Some women like big guys. Maybe they like the strength that goes with it. Perhaps there is an appeal that comes from knowing your partner can bench press twice your weight.

BDSMBill

uh oh. i think i feel a need to justify myself now.

this might get a little confusing. but that's just me. a complicated person who doesnt make much sense sometimes.

firstly. the part about vanity and the 'perfect' body et al. i really am not an advocate of cosmetic surgery and what have you, or even stuff like botox to make yourself look beautiful. what i am actually advocating, is self love. make yourself look good, based on what you were naturally blessed with. so yes, plump people can be beautiful too. have nothing against them. its just how you package yourself and present yourself to the world as i said earlier.

but as tourguide said 'The simple fact of the matter is, if the individual themself is happy with their appearance, then that's what counts. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yes, but that also means that just because you find something unpleasant to look at doesn't mean others do as well.' --- that is absolutely true different people have different standards, different wants, different needs

so to conclude, fat, thin, ugly or beautiful, there'll always be a match somewhere. just gotta look hard.

and yeah i'd just like to make another point. there are people who are able to look beyond physical beauty. much as i am an advocate of 'vanity' ... yes i admit i'm a terribly vain person, but the guy i'm with isnt terribly good looking. he prolly weighs double my weight and is nearly double my age. i guess what matters most, is that you're comfortable with the person, that you're able to trust that person, and that you're happy.

if you are, then nothing else matters. tho yes, what others think is probably gonna affect you. but that's another matter to talk abt.

[redEva]

Originally posted by bdsmbill
...I will have trouble, then. I am 6'2" and about 250 lbs...

mmmmm.... who ever wanted a midget for a Dom? Brain definitely! but if i can huff and puff and plaster you to a wall – you cannot ever start your input into my brain! man is supposed to be BIG and strong!

[bdsmbill]

Well, I have always been big, and I use my Bowflex three times a week to stay strong. I am not twice my wife's size, but then again, I prefer a little more woman.

BDSMBill

[cyndylu]

Originally posted by redEva
mmmmm.... who ever wanted a midget for a Dom? Brain definitely! but if i can huff and puff and plaster you to a wall – you cannot ever start your input into my brain! man is supposed to be BIG and strong!

rE YOU SAID IT THE BEST!

[Finding_Fantasy]

You know... it's really hard to find a happy medium in this world today.

When I was a kid I was skinny...I mean bean pole skinny and really tall for my age. By the time I was 14 I was already 5 foot 8 inches and skinny as a rail. I got teased because I was too tall and too skinny. Plus hitting puberty and wearing a full size bra in the 4th grade didn't help much either. I got teased and physically harrassed so badly I had a nervous breakdown in the 4th grade. Why? Because of other people's perceptions of what is beautiful.

Not I am 27 and I have not grown and inch since I was 14, unless you consider outward. I am genetically doomed to be a big woman (that strong scandinavian background) and there really isn't a whole lot I can do about it. From the time I was 10 I played baseball, participated in charity runs and the lot. I road my bike the 6 miles round trip to and from my baseball games 4 times a week. When I got older I stared going to the gym, I took Judo lessons and rode in rodeos (and just because you are riding doesn't mean it's easy. Controlling a 1500 pound animal with one hand is not always easy). I also worked as a stable hand for and outfitter, slung hay bails around for my own horses and was a baker and had to help 60 50lbs sacks of flour twice a week from the truck aside from having to lift anywhere to 10lbs to 140lbs in a shot. I ate reasonably healthy as I don't really care for really greasy food. So it is not like I sat on my ass and did not exercise.

And you know what happened? I still got fat. Why? Who the hell knows. At first it really bothered me because I figured no one would ever want someone as big as me. I thought this way because my borther, his friends, and all of my friends (who were all male) would see a woman on tv who was thin and beautiful and say "Oh wow look at her! I'd do her." and yet when I heaft woman they would say "Eww look at her!" I have even had people call me a beached whale or make moo-ing sounds on the street at me. I even had one guy say "Oh my God, what the hell is that!"

But you know what, I stopped caring. Not stopped caring about myself but stopped caring what other people thought about me. I look at my father and my brother. Both are men who are in reasonably good shape, tall and thin but their wives are just like me. This holds true for a lot of people I know. While they themselves are thin or in good shape their spouse or significant other is not. While I don't always like who I am or how I look I have learned to accept that this is who I am and if people don't like it then they can kiss my ass... plain and simple.

My opinion is that unless you are looking for a work out partner, why should it really matter what they look like or if they are over weight? If they are confident and are well groomed then it really shouldn't matter. I don't know how else to explain it other than through my own experiences as an over weight person who can never be thin short of lypo suction.

Basically, I don't care what anyone thinks. I have people who love me for who I am...not what I am.

[-angelstar-]

Originally posted by Finding_Fantasy
I have people who love me for who I am...not what I am.

and that, is the most important thing of it all

[Jones, Nikka]

You and your life are the reflection of what you think about yourself. If you are a beautiful person it is because you think yourself beautiful and everything you do leads you to become more beautiful still.

The only comment I can make to Faibhar is that you will attract into your life the people that you decide are right for you. If your first attempt to join the BDSN scene was not pleasant it is maybe because you tried the wrong scene. Look some more. There are different levels to the BDSM scene in every town. And if I could give you a piece of advise that cost me a lot of anxiety to learn: be more concerned about mental and spiritual beauty than the physical kind.

[Fox]

I have people who love me for who I am...not what I am.

- Finding Fantasy

be more concerned about mental and spiritual beauty than the physical kind.

- slavelucy

Human beings can alter their lives by altering their attitudes of mind.

-William James

A person starts to live when he can live outside of himself

- Albert Einstein

There is no security in life, only opportunity

- Mark Twain

Who has no faults? To err and yet be able to correct it is best of all.

-Yuanwu

[Fox]

If you want to get the best out of a man, you must look for the best that is in him

- Bernard Haldane

[Steely]

Excuse me for butting in, and I apologize if I skipped this same comment on pages 2-4 (low on time, high on things to do) but i think -angelstar- had a very good line in what he/she wrote.


and be physically in good health


I think this is the epitome of whats really important. Myself, I'd sure as hell never be called a small guy, (5'7" and 250 lbs) but at the same time, my ability to function (defined by me as my ability to move/work/relax) as a person is not limited by the fact that I'm large. The counterpoint to this was a woman that I worked with, she could barely walk because of her weight, was in SEVERE threat to her health and her life, and she kept gaining weight. I hear almost every day women complaining about there weight. It truly frustrates me to look over and see a chick who's waist is literally smaller than 1, yes 1! of my thighs. But I suppose thats where our society has brought us, so all we can do is ignore society and continue our lives as we choose.

[Curtis]

Wow! You know, this is the first thread I've seen where I'm worried about getting the crap kicked out of me! (probably I should take that as a sign to keep my opinions to myself, but no one ever accused me of being smart)

My best friend is over 150 pounds overweight and my spiritual adviser is at least 100 over. These are fine people, good friends and with minds not in the least flabby.

BUT, I would never think of either of them in a sexual context. (Yes, I've heard that BDSM isn't primarily a sexual activity. I disagree. It is for me.)

Faibhar's experience mirrored mine with the MENSA group in Syracuse in the early 80's. Not a good place to meet people, no intelligent conversation, pretty uniformly unattractive, and already paired off. ("The food was terrible! And the portions were so small!") I went to their meetings for the same reason Faibhar attended his munches. Playboy magazine kept referring to MENSA as "the high IQ sex club". If there was any sex going on, you couldn't prove it by me and -- yuck! -- who would want to?

On a slight tangent, my 350 pound friend tells me that "big boned" is a myth promulgated by overweight people to justify their overweight. He says that every fat person he's ever met claimed they were big boned. Of course they were -- their bones thickened from having to support all that weight.

Isn't it great to have a Forum where people will accept for just who you are?

[Faibhar]

"big-boned" is a term euphemistically employed by many-especially the hefty in describing their girth (I just want to beee meeeeee...). Curtis writes with a hilarious note and even if one chooses to disagree with him his post is still very funny.

Anyway, genetics (big-boned) do appear to play something of a part in being on the heavy side, but my original impression included the mentally flabby, along with the physically overweight.

Chalk any preceived "anti" fat comments up to an ignorant novice who thought that somehow, someway the BDSM lifestyle was supposed to contain sexual elements. Personally, it is difficult to find the overweight sexually attractive.

Given the relative "size" of the munchers tended not to be the turn-on that was expected. Coupled with talk of "toys", etc., try as I might it did prove difficult to find much allure with what was assumed to be an entre into the world of BDSM.

But, if it mitigates any ill feelings of the hefty/toy minded, then just shrug at one clearly not as sophisticated as you, on the machinations of the BDSM lifestyle.

[Curtis]

Thanks for your kind and gentle response, Faibhar. My impression is that this is your first thread and I remember how good you were to me over at the Pedestal/Pillar of truth, so I wanted to give you what support I could. You may not be as happy with this post.

I think it's pretty obvious (and not only from this thread) that Faibhar is an elitist. I can recognize the breed because I consider myself one, too (though, ironically, I don't come up to his high standards).

What's wrong with being an elitist? Shouldn't people have standards? Is it wrong to demand that the people you associate with come up to those standards? (For those of you trying to keep score, the answers to the second and third questions are, respectively, "Yes" and "No". The first I deal with below.)

I always roll my eyes when people say size, looks, brains, or personality doesn't matter. It ALL matters, just not all at the same time. I wouldn't mind having sex with what Lord Thomas (I hope I have the name right!) refers to so aptly as a Dumb, as long as she met my physical standards and I didn't have to listen to her. I don't mind discussing politics with old/ugly/fat people, as long as they can hold up their end (and they're not a LOT smarter than me...). Just as long as you have the proper tool to suit the job.

I can see only one thing wrong with being an elitist: It's lonesome-making. And the higher you set your standards the lonelier you become. Not only do we isolate ourselves, but we get ostracized by those "reverse snobs" out there (and there are a lot of them, ALSO including me) who feel threatened by our betters. (Remember those kids in school who used to pick on "the brains"?)

Okay, I'm stuck for a wrap-up paragraph, so I'll just end this here.

[bdsmbill]

It was posted here: "I wouldn't mind having sex with what Lord Thomas (I hope I have the name right!) refers to so aptly as a Dumb, as long as she met my physical standards and I didn't have to listen to her. "

Sorry, I disagree completely. By your standard, the partner could be passed out, dead, or a poodle, as long as she looked good. Sex is a highly mental activity, and I want a partner who can hold up her end. If she can't, I might as well get a blow-up doll.

I am very much an elitist, but my primary criteria is mental, not physical. Where the physical is concerned, my taste runs toward women a bit larger than the fashon mag standard. I would say 150 to 200 pounds (or a bit more) is the perfect range -- big enough to not seem childlike, but still small enough to easily pick up and carry.

Bones? Yep, I prefer she have them, and they do come in different sizes, no matter what you may read here. I know women with tiny little hands that won't even wrap around my dick, while others have hands almost as large as mine. I suppose there is an attraction about a tiny woman as a sub. After all, if you are one of those 120 pound wenches, I can easily hold both of your wrists in one hand and pick you up. While I hold you off the ground with that hand, I could have some fun exploring with the other.

I would just want you to be smart enough to appreciate what was happening.

BDSMBill

[julise]

Faibhar, I just realized that I misspelled your name throughout my last post. I do apologize.

Now for the reason of my post. I have to say that a lot of people are still being very unfair to Faibhar's original meaning of this thread. Too many of the posts on this thread are focusing on Faibhar's mention of appearance. He has made other points and has not limited himself to appearance.

I would also venture to say that some of you are not as open minded as you think you are.

To be very blunt, I find skinny people to be terribly unattractive. I cannot stand looking at some of the pictures posted in these threads and seeing a 90 pound waif with her ribs and hipbones poking out with an obvious fake rack that border on the triple E size. I mean, come on. Get real.

With all due respect BDSM_Tourguide (and I am being very sincere about the due respect), this is also a judgment of appearance. I have a few friends that are very skinny because of high metabolism and they try to gain weight but can't. They would find your post very insulting. We shouldn't always assume that skinny people are trying to be skinny.

Again I say reread Faibhar's posts. He is not just focusing on the outward appearance. He looks to the mind as well. But he also doesn't claim to be some open minded saint and I think that his honesty and lack of hypocrisy is refreshing.
(Please do not jump to conclusions and assume that I am calling any of you a hypocrite. If you feel that I am talking to you, then maybe you should wonder why.)

I think that a lot of you are being unfair and ganging up on Faibhar. As many of you preach that judgement is unfair, I think it wrong to judge Faibhar for his preferences.

julise

(by the way bdsmbill, that picture you painted with your description of holding your sub up by both of her wrists and using the other to explore was a very nice picture indeed.)

[Steely]

With all due respect BDSM_Tourguide (and I am being very sincere about the due respect), this is also a judgment of appearance. I have a few friends that are very skinny because of high metabolism and they try to gain weight but can't. They would find your post very insulting. We shouldn't always assume that skinny people are trying to be skinny.

If I can interject... How many of those skinny friends have large breasts? How many of those are fake? How many of those friends lives are based solely on looking perfect in front of a camera? Thats that Tourguide was getting at if i'm not mistaken...

[julise]

Yes, I appreciate that Steely, and you do bring up a good point. But the first line in that paragraph is...

...I find skinny people to be terribly unnattractive.

He then goes on to describe one type of skinny, but that original sentence is very general and would seem so to my skinny friends as well.

julise

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I find skinny people to be unattractive. I do not find thin people to be unattractive, nor do I find people that are slightly underweight unattractive.

I find people that are massively underweight unattractive. I don't want to see bones sticking out everywhere from my partner. I would rather them have healthy looking bodies with nice curves and round things where they are supposed to be. And not storebought round things either.

Yes, Steely hit it on the head when he said I was referring to people that spend their lives in front of cameras and have to look "good," as relative a term as that is.

The truth of the matter is that, with the exceptions of Aria Giovanni and Dita von Teese, I don't find any porn stars or models to be all that great looking. That was my primary motivation for starting the Personal Photography thread. I wanted to see real people in their real settings, not a bunch of fakes posing for profit.

For the record, I also find many mainstream actresses to be not worth a second look. Courtney Cox-Arquette comes immediately to mind, so does Jennifer Aniston. Sarah Michelle Gellar looked so much cuter in seasons one and two of Buffy, before she went skinny, too.

Fortunately, the trend for skinny may be disappearing again. I'm noticing that the 60s/70s fashions are starting to go "out" again and the 80s seem to be coming back around. If the 80s do make it back "in," then we should start seeing healthy-looking models and women again, rather than twigs with baloon racks.

Also, remember that this is just my personal preference. I know plenty of people that like the emaciated look. It's just not for me.

Lastly, from my personal experience, it seems turning thirty will do away with that nasty old metabolism thing. So will quitting smoking, drinking, drugs, as well as will getting married, having a baby or getting cookbooks for Christmas.

[Faibhar]

What is it about the Weight Thing? Is it only me, or is here a whiff of defensiveness in the air?

Actor Sly Stallone's mother, remember her?, used to say that Sly liked them emaciated as he liked to see their ribs show. Well, anyone who has worked out knows that the rib cgae does expand with exercise. True, diet also provides further definition, but really...Emaciated? I think not.

Thank you all, and julise with a lovely name such as yours there is no need for apology about misspelling another's name. Your thoughts are appreciated.
As are those of Curtis, but I must disagree with the elitist handle. True, it is, as you say, 'lonesome making', if only through a (natural) selection process. Bdsmill, while somewhat coarse in his post appears accuarate, and BDSM_Tourguide, well, he describes life experiences many of us have enjoyed/endured. Such happenings though should in no way give one an excuse to become slovenly be they BDSM Lifestylers or more vanilla-mainstream types.

[woodsman'sgame]

I think it's pretty obvious (and not only from this thread) that Faibhar is an elitist. I can recognize the breed because I consider myself one, too (though, ironically, I don't come up to his high standards).

Curtis,

Whether that entire post was dead serious or tongue in cheek. It doesn't matter. It was just too funny. Thanks for the laugh.

[DeliaDay]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

To borrow a phrase from Maxwel Smart, that's the second most ridiculous thing I've ever read.