Did the gods (god) create us?

[leo9]

I am a scientist: the materialist model of the operation of the universe satisfies me, and I find no difficulty with the models science has deduced for the origins of the human race, the planet and the Universe. To require a cosmic hobbyist to be constantly tinkering with the machinery to make it work seems to me to diminish the glory of the world.

On the other cerebral hemisphere, I am also aware of the spiritual dimension of the world, which is as much a part of my empirical evidence as the measurements of instruments. I have personally encountered both a ghost and a goddess, and to reject that evidence as unreal because I don't have photographs or tape recordings to "prove" it seems to me to be as unscientific as rejecting instrument readings that don't fit my beliefs. Mind and life are realities, not just processes: the difference between Astroturf and a living field is not only measureable with chemical or physical tests, but something that can be felt.

Therefore, I believe that the Universe has a spirit as well as a body, just as we do: it may be called the Dao or the Force, but I wouldn't call it God because that implies a whole raft of properties I don't believe in. Whether it caused the event of physical creation, or whether it developed in parallel with the physical entity as our individual minds do, I can't say; like a physicist, I have to recognise that part of the story as being out of reach. But as physical matter developed from a single cloud of mass/energy into differentiated particles, similarly the Dao gave rise to more individuated spirits in a range of states from the archetypal gods, through local and tribal deities, through spirits of place and elemental beings, to the matter-bound minds of biological creatures. And as our bodies return to the cycles of matter, our minds return to the mind of the world. If there is a purpose to the whole thing, that is it: without the physical world and the beings that inhabit it, the Dao would have nowhere to go play.

None of which I can prove in any way, so don't bother disecting it, Thorne: it's just a faith. In the wise words of the White Knight, when you hear it, either it brings tears to your eyes, or it doesn't.

[Thorne]

I have personally encountered both a ghost and a goddess, and to reject that evidence as unreal because I don't have photographs or tape recordings to "prove" it seems to me to be as unscientific as rejecting instrument readings that don't fit my beliefs.

I can accept the idea that you experienced some things which your mind interpreted as a ghost and a goddess. But as a scientist you should be aware of the propensity of the mind to interpret unknown things we experience within a known framework (Pareidolia). And while it may feel absolutely real to you, if you cannot provide real evidence, or at least additional witnesses who can corroborate your visions, then the experience can only be classified as "unknown" at best.

Therefore, I believe that the Universe has a spirit as well as a body, just as we do ... similarly the Dao gave rise to more individuated spirits in a range of states from the archetypal gods, through local and tribal deities, through spirits of place and elemental beings, to the matter-bound minds of biological creatures.

While you may believe this, without evidence this belief is no better, or worse, than any other religion. Nor is it any better, or worse, than my interpretation of the universe as a strictly physical, natural process with no spiritual element at all.

And as our bodies return to the cycles of matter, our minds return to the mind of the world. If there is a purpose to the whole thing, that is it: without the physical world and the beings that inhabit it, the Dao would have nowhere to go play.

I will admit that the concept of something of ourselves surviving past death can be comforting. I don't begrudge anyone clinging to that concept. I just can't rationalize it myself.

None of which I can prove in any way, so don't bother disecting it, Thorne: it's just a faith.

But dissecting other's posts is the best part of participating in these forums!