A Must Read!

[Thorne]

"Undeniable"? Well, no, you may have noticed that several people have already denied it. But then, "undeniable" is usually a weasel word meaning "if you deny it you must be stupid".

You'll notice that I said it was undeniable in my opinion. I did not say, nor did I intend to imply, that anyone who disagrees with me is stupid. Far from it. Most of the arguments I've heard (from three different posters) have been fairly reasoned and intelligent except (and again, this is my opinion) those arguments which try to appeal to emotion as proof of belief.

He's entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine, which differs from his. But he isn't entitled to assert that his opinion is fact and mine is lies without offering evidence, which - by the nature of the question - neither of us have.

As I said earlier, Myers' rhetoric can be abrasive and harsh. I believe this comes from having to deal with truly stupid commenters who call him names and threaten him for denying the existence of their pet god, and from pseudo-intelligent commenters who spout "evidence" which has been debunked multiple times over many years. I've seen him threatened and cursed at, and know of at least one "critic" who threatened his whole family. I tend to grant him a little leeway for that.

I don't believe I'm inevitably damned,

This is one of the biggest problems I have with some of the more rabid religious defenders. They seem to think that the ONLY way to please their god is to kowtow to him and believe in him with all your heart and soul. Anything else results in damnation. In other words, "Follow me down this same dark road or you'll go to hell." This is the kind of attitude which started me down the path of atheism.

and I don't believe I stand naked before the universe - well, actually, I do, but not in the bleak sense he intends by that image. When I stand naked before someone who loves me, there's nothing bleak about it at all!

Did you really find that bleak? I found that image to be more heroic: the brave humans, weary and battered, standing bravely against all that the universe can throw at them. Inspiring, not bleak. And the universe doesn't love you, or anyone. The universe is dark, dangerous, and ultimately unconcerned with the existence of humanity. But it's all we have, so we'd better learn to deal with it.

their materialist theory accounts for all the evidence - except the evidence of our own senses. We all know they are wrong, but our evidence is purely subjective!

But we can't always trust our senses. That's why we need to make sure that everyone else sees or hears or tastes the same things we do. We need to understand how our senses can trick us. We need to learn how our minds make judgments. By being rational and skeptical we can minimize bias and wishful thinking and learn the truth.

As with the mind, so with the spirit.

Here is where we must part ways, I'm afraid. Spirit is a meaningless concept to me. There is nothing there for me to hold on to. No meat. No sensations. No proof.