Waterboarding Hyprocrisy

[SadisticNature]

Just pressing the "Thanks" button is insufficient for this posting.
I am pleased to have someone that is calling into question the propensity of the Sadistic method of positing an argument.
Along with stating the consistent refusal of providing supporting data when requested.

Or the DuncanONeil method of attacking an argument by avoiding to talk about the material at hand at all, but rather criticizing anything that avoids discussing the material at hand. I have responded to criticism on the sources by first providing source materials (the books involved) and some particular sources as well. You have said nothing relating to the Philippines in approximately 10 consecutive posts in a thread on the Philippines.

You also assert without any source or supporting documents that the ability to determine ones origins (or even ethnic grouping since the matter at hand is black vs asian) was not present in the early 20th century.

You state utterly absurd statements as self-evident and unsupported facts yet chastise people for commenting on historical events when they aren't willing to look up the exact page number and paragraph of a quote that you'll never look up anyways.

[steelish]

Firstly, you attack both my claim and my supporting evidence, without providing a counterclaim or any sources of your own. I still contend the parallels to conservatism are striking, where this is often the predominant tactic in all sorts of debates (particularly evolution). I was not making the argument that conservatives are the only side who distort history. I was more claiming that the instant disagreement without any supportive evidence.

Well, for one thing, I believe what is asked for is sources. (as in, out of that list of books, what are the excerpts within them that are your exact sources?)

Another thing...Theodore Roosevelt was a very liberal Republican. He was not conservative at all.

The problem with the historic justification of "well everyone else was doing it" is that it can justify all sorts of atrocities, including the holocaust (It's not like other empires weren't oppressing minorities through the use of concentration camps, torture and slaughter).

I really don't think you can equate the holocaust with coercion to extract vital information in order to save thousands of innocent lives. I just don't see how it justifies those atrocities (or equates to them).

As for the choice of forum, there have been other talks about waterboarding in this thread. I find it interesting to look at the history of waterboarding by and against Americans, particularly since it shows that by Americans goes unpunished while against Americans results in executions.

It goes unpunished? Hmmm...On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier near Da Nang. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." This picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier. That can be found in the history of waterboarding...a link I posted previously.

[SadisticNature]

Well, I do have some familiarity with the topic, but my sources are not in question. Yours are.

You are finally starting to show some evidence of this. How about actually articulating your own viewpoint with sources rather than finding ways to avoid actually talking about this.

Instead of having a discussion you attack:
(i) My Sources
(ii) When I provide the sources I used you wanted me to spend the time looking up exact quotes in them.
(iii) My choice of location for posting
(iv) Various little quips and barbs along the way by both of us.

[DuncanONeil]

Providing sources? I have had others do this in the past. Provide the title of a complete book. Then complaining when that book is not found and read in order to find the segment that they purport supports their argument.
As example I earlier quoted something from a specific source. The quote is the support, which I followed with data that would allow anyone to seek it out for comparison or analysis.

All you do is present a title of several books each of several hundred pages. See the difference? See the problem in your style of listing supporting documentation?

You are finally starting to show some evidence of this. How about actually articulating your own viewpoint with sources rather than finding ways to avoid actually talking about this.

Instead of having a discussion you attack:
(i) My Sources
(ii) When I provide the sources I used you wanted me to spend the time looking up exact quotes in them.
(iii) My choice of location for posting
(iv) Various little quips and barbs along the way by both of us.

[TwistedTails]

Well it is a user edited encyclopedia, and some of the stuff off of the beaten path may not be entirely accurate. But, I would think that The Philippines with an English speaking national population of 92 million, a literacy rate of 94.3% of which 24 million have internet access and an additional 11 million Filipinos worldwide, someone may have made an edit if something were not as it should be. If the entry is wrong and you have proof but the author won't change it? Best thing about Wikipedia is if you want to dispute an entry you have to bring your proof, whoever has the best proof wins. It's a real annoyance to revisionists both Private and Government alike.

But you don't have to use it, feel free to link to any resource that you like. Or point out the inaccuracies. (with evidence )

You are finally starting to show some evidence of this. How about actually articulating your own viewpoint with sources rather than finding ways to avoid actually talking about this.

Instead of having a discussion you attack:
(i) My Sources
(ii) When I provide the sources I used you wanted me to spend the time looking up exact quotes in them.
(iii) My choice of location for posting
(iv) Various little quips and barbs along the way by both of us.

I have been citing references, I could cite better if you could narrow down your primal scream of anti Americanism. Was there a US vs Philippines war? Yes its right here.

Philippine American War

No conspiracy exists to hide it. Did the US during that war use a method called "the water cure" Yes, its documented. Did they do it to millions as you imply in another post. No. The number that died from the war then number that died of the plague that erupted during the war? Over a million. It is there. Its not hidden.

Talking about what? Everything coherent you have posted up to this point has been properly noted or rebutted by myself or another poster, except for some rather racist lyrics (and the Taft statement and that's just too easy if you will not post sources for a counter claim.) In fact most of what you have posted was covered under "Yes that's the way it was back then"

If you are going to accuse me of not citing sources You should make sure you are not the one running into the room holding a book screaming believe this! Keep it up and the moderators will move this thread to Religion LOL

(i) My Sources
You didn't provide any.
(ii) When I provide the sources I used you wanted me to spend the time looking up exact quotes in them.
Well, actually someone else said that, but yes I agree. I think it is only fair. This is an open discussion, do you expect everyone to run out and "buy the book" just to participate?
(iii) My choice of location for posting
I gave you my reasoning on this before. It still stands. But again, That's up to the moderators. Let's let them worry about that shall we?
(iv) Various little quips and barbs along the way by both of us.
Me? I have not yet begun to "Quip" I'm a big fan of Don Rickles LOL

[TwistedTails]

except for some rather racist comments

My sincere apologies, this should read "some rather racist lyrics" if a moderator could correct this I would be gratefull.
Again, My apologies.

[damyanti]

Well it is a user edited encyclopedia, and some of the stuff off of the beaten path may not be entirely accurate. But, I would think that The Philippines with an English speaking national population of 92 million, a literacy rate of 94.3% of which 24 million have internet access and an additional 11 million Filipinos worldwide, someone may have made an edit if something were not as it should be. If the entry is wrong and you have proof but the author won't change it? Best thing about Wikipedia is if you want to dispute an entry you have to bring your proof, whoever has the best proof wins. It's a real annoyance to revisionists both Private and Government alike.

But you don't have to use it, feel free to link to any resource that you like. Or point out the inaccuracies. (with evidence )

Actually that is very far from the truth. There have been numerous instances where common knowledge facts have been constantly corrected by Wikipedia because of all the cliquey games on the debates forum, it is not true that anyone can correct things, unless you are part of a clique and just a regular Joe trying to give a little something back the truth gets reverted to the party line in a matter of minutes....just as its true that its founder himself has proved that several times by abusing it himself. Wikipedia may be an ok resource to start you off on a topic, but it is a very dangerous thing the way people have started to use it as the beginning and the end of their research.

All of that is a matter for perhaps another thread on the credibility of Wikipedia...and just to clarify, this had nothing with a pointless debate on sources in this thread, but rather my distaste for all dictatorships, including Wikipedia.

[damyanti]

1. USA employs a hypocritical double standard when it comes to the use of torture and the international rules of war. Fact.

2. You are never going to be able to have a rational discussion on that on a Forum populated by U.S. Americans who think Glenn Beck is sane, lol. Most of them have a tough time stomaching any critique on their government policies. They will never argue the issue, but rather attack you personally. There are good intelligent people here (American and any other nationality you can think of) and you can discus it rationally in private with them, but in public.....*shrugs*

3. On the other threads that water-boarding has been debated, it has been proven numerous times that it is not effective, but rather that it is counter-productive. Numerous documents have come out now that show Bush, Cheney and co. lied about its effectiveness and how it was used.

4.Water-boarding is torture. If you have a face to defend it....I can not come up with a description that would accurately describe what a disgusting, low form of life that makes you....and if I were you, I would take a very hard look at myself and my own conscience and what kind of a person you are, and how that makes you appear to whatever Divinity you believe or don't believe in. All torture is wrong. No matter who does it and when it was done. There is and never will be moral justification for it. Violence only births more violence. That is what History teaches us, just as it shows that only when we can go above petty feelings of searching for revenge that we create lasting peace and prosperous societies. But hey, that would require thinking and studying...better to succumb to baser instincts, to succumb to manipulative rethorics (weather secular or religious) of hate, blood and gore.

5. I stopped following these threads and I come rarely to this site anymore because intelligent and respectful debates are rare. I clicked on this thread because I recently read a a lot of stuff on a similar topic (The Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urquhart) but I don't know why I bothered, cause it was so predictable that it is not even funny, the people, the reactions, the jibes...but I was disgusted by the racist comments, that was a new low.

Peace out, peeps.

[steelish]

I thank SadisticNature for his original post because it led me to the history of waterboarding...and also this interesting article.

[SadisticNature]

I thank SadisticNature for his original post because it led me to the history of waterboarding...and also this interesting article.

I lol'd at this thanks but no thanks thing. You're welcome to actually thank the post you know :-).

[SadisticNature]

I'm happy to drop the whole liberal vs conservative thing, but when you attack me for doing so I'm going to respond to it. Generally getting someone to drop a line of argument is not done by making further points about it, which is what you were doing that led me to respond.

[TwistedTails]

I'm happy to drop the whole liberal vs conservative thing, but when you attack me for doing so I'm going to respond to it. Generally getting someone to drop a line of argument is not done by making further points about it, which is what you were doing that led me to respond.

Who brought it up? I have only responded to you and never labeled you. If you are actually willing to drop the Liberal/Conservative labeling fine. I already stated my feelings on that tactic in a previous post.

[DuncanONeil]

While she did thank you that was not the purpose of her post!

I lol'd at this thanks but no thanks thing. You're welcome to actually thank the post you know :-).

[SadisticNature]

While she did thank you that was not the purpose of her post!

It's wonderful that you're such a fervent attack dog that you even have to respond to a playful attempt at humor that had nothing to do with you with criticism.

[TwistedTails]

I lol'd at this thanks but no thanks thing. You're welcome to actually thank the post you know :-).

Well since you seem to need some thanks, I thanked you for finally providing your reference.

[steelish]

I lol'd at this thanks but no thanks thing. You're welcome to actually thank the post you know :-).

I thanked the post I am quoting here, but I definitely won't thank your original post because I disagree with a majority of it. What I was thanking you for was inducing me to investigate the history of waterboarding.

[DuncanONeil]

I found "this" much more informative than "history". Save that "history" showed that waterboarding was never intended to put the subject at risk!

I thank SadisticNature for his original post because it led me to the history of waterboarding...and also this interesting article.

[denuseri]

As for discussing water boarding itself, we have if no one remembers, been there and done that to death and back in another thread.

Here is a link:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...Water+boarding

[Saheli]

As for discussing water boarding itself, we have if no one remembers, been there and done that to death and back in another thread.

Here is a link:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...Water+boarding

So I went to see what had been said, and I didn't even get past the third post before I had a question. Mkemse said "Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent." If a person was not slanted in such a way, would the person drown? Is that the reason for the slanting, so that it would be more torturous than murderous?

[SadisticNature]

The Philippines casualties were comparable in number to the number of US soldiers dying in the pacific in WWII. There is no way that anywhere close to that many people had vital information. Concentration camps were used, and peaceful non-resisters were executed. Race based discrimination was the basis for both these camps and the executions. So I certainly see a strong comparison.

I was referring to Aguinaldo earlier.

Also I have no problem with using The Imperial Cruise as a source. It's certainly better than say Wikipedia (sourcing documents that change over time is problematic at best), given the authors credentials, past work, and the extensive properly sourced material throughout.

[DuncanONeil]

Again the comparisons in your first paragrah are not appropriate!

The Philippines casualties were comparable in number to the number of US soldiers dying in the pacific in WWII. There is no way that anywhere close to that many people had vital information. Concentration camps were used, and peaceful non-resisters were executed. Race based discrimination was the basis for both these camps and the executions. So I certainly see a strong comparison.

I was referring to Aguinaldo earlier.

Also I have no problem with using The Imperial Cruise as a source. It's certainly better than say Wikipedia (sourcing documents that change over time is problematic at best), given the authors credentials, past work, and the extensive properly sourced material throughout.

[SadisticNature]

Again the comparisons in your first paragrah are not appropriate!

It's a comparison made by others before me. Others with no source or substantiation tried to claim the situation in the Philippines involved waterboarding a few extremists for information. I pointed out the level of casualties and incidents were so high that that was obviously not the case.

[TwistedTails]

So I went to see what had been said, and I didn't even get past the third post before I had a question. Mkemse said "Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent." If a person was not slanted in such a way, would the person drown? Is that the reason for the slanting, so that it would be more torturous than murderous?

Would they drown without the slant? Probably not. Actually the slant is what does the work, water seeks the lowest level. By angling the subject (or just the subjects head ) water runs into the nose and fills up the back of the throat. Weather it is torturous or murderous is determined by a variety of factors but primarily how much air you are allowed between pouring.

[DuncanONeil]

In waterboarding, water does not enter the air passages of the subject.

Would they drown without the slant? Probably not. Actually the slant is what does the work, water seeks the lowest level. By angling the subject (or just the subjects head ) water runs into the nose and fills up the back of the throat. Weather it is torturous or murderous is determined by a variety of factors but primarily how much air you are allowed between pouring.

[MMI]

Excuse me for chiming in, but is this a thread about the use of torture, or about the sources used?

This isn't university. People here (I speak for myself and those like me) express our prejudices and our beliefs, however well-informed or misguided. I haven't a hope in Hell of accessing any source other than Wikipedia, which serves well enough for discussions here, but I'd hate to be excluded just because my personal library is wanting

If you agree with the proposition, say so: if you don't, say that instead. Don't run down an opinion because it isn't supported by evidence of a high enough academic standing. Especially if your own point of view is similarly bereft of citations.

Otherwise I won't be able to contribute at all!

Back to the point, I believe all imperial powers have behaved inhumanly towards the people they have subjected, and the USA is no exception. I don't know enough about the Phillipines, but I do know that USA for purchased the colony from Spain $20m and then proceeded to wage war upon the Filipinos.

The White Man's Burden
or
The United States and the Philippine Islands.
Rudyard Kipling (1899)

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

I believe Kipling was pointing out that, if you want to take on an empire, you have a duty of care towards your colonial subjects rather than a right to abuse them.

[SadisticNature]

Mark Twain has some delightful little bon mots, one of my favorites is:

"There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."

It's a little inaccurate in that this belief had rather tragic consequences, but its nonetheless quite insightful.

The idea that the "enlightened" have a "moral duty" to "civilize" the world is basically an excuse for power or control of resources. Never in a million years would the US have been interested in the Philippines if they didn't think it was useful for completing the route to China (Pacific US -> Hawaii -> Philippines -> China).

Another point on the holocaust comparison is that the Theodore Roosevelt Administration worked actively to portray the Filipino's as the other. Which is much the idea of what Hitler did with the Jews. I'm not saying they were the first to do this (they aren't), but its a recurring theme throughout history.

[SadisticNature]

Excuse me for chiming in, but is this a thread about the use of torture, or about the sources used?

This isn't university. People here (I speak for myself and those like me) express our prejudices and our beliefs, however well-informed or misguided. I haven't a hope in Hell of accessing any source other than Wikipedia, which serves well enough for discussions here, but I'd hate to be excluded just because my personal library is wanting

My point is that my source is better academically than Wikipedia. I don't mean this as an attack on Wikipedia or the use of it as a source, but rather would politely suggest that those who do choose to use Wikipedia refrain from attacking the quality of other peoples sources (but should feel free to attack arguments based on information from those sources).

[TwistedTails]

My point is that my source is better academically than Wikipedia. I don't mean this as an attack on Wikipedia or the use of it as a source, but rather would politely suggest that those who do choose to use Wikipedia refrain from attacking the quality of other peoples sources (but should feel free to attack arguments based on information from those sources).

I did not attack your source, In fact I endorsed it. As reading materiel. Not as a gospel. Other books have been written that disagree, but they too were written as reading materiel.

[DuncanONeil]

Apparently the song may have had some other reason for being. "In 1902, for example, Albert Gardner, in Troop B of the 1st U.S. Cavalry, composed a would-be comic song dedicated to “water-cure” torture" (http://www.japanfocus.org/-Paul_A_-Kramer/1745) While accurate members of the army in 1902 are hardly driven by the positions of a 20th century person, nor their opponents.
"In WWII, Japanese and German prisoners shown to have participated in waterboarding were executed for warcrimes establishing a legal precedent that the US belives that waterboarding is a warcrime, and also a capital offense. Yet for several years in the 21st century they actively pursued it."
Again the emphasis on waterboarding! Methinks you are angry about something that does not involve history.
Additionally, as described this is not waterboarding. In some respects "waterboarding" can be seen as another method of lying to the prisoner.
If you think "waterboarding was the worst thing the Japanese did to their prisoners you are sorely mistaken!

"While we are on the topic of warcrimes, American generals gave the order to kill everyone over 10. No one was ever charged."
In a war instituted in 1898? I take it then if our troops encounter an AK-47 wielding person of age 10 - 17 in Africa they must not return fire?

The US has a long history of a double standard on waterboarding. They've done it cheerfully in the early 20th century invasion of the Philippines. They've done it somewhat reluctantly in the early 21st century. In the interim they've put people to death for war-crimes when US troops were waterboarded (namely the war-crimes trials in Japan).

One of the standards that would be consistent with US actions would suggest its acceptable to water-board someone as long as they are not white. I don't believe this is the actual case, I think its more likely something like "It's ok for the US to do it, but its not ok for anyone to do it to them."

Regardless the US seems to be rather hypocritical about this.

For the record: Early 20th century US Army song "The Water Cure"

Get the good old syringe boys and fill it to the brim.
We've caught another n!gger and we'll operate on him.
Let someone take the handle who can work it with a vim.
Shouting the battle cry of freedom.

Chorus:

Hurray. Hurray. We bring the Jubilee.
Hurray. Hurrah. The flag that makes him free.
Shove in the nozzle deep and let him taste of liberty.
Shouting the battle cry of freedom.

We've come across the bounding main to kindly spread around
Sweet liberty whenever there are rebels to be found.
So hurry with the syringe boys. We've got him down and bound.
Shouting the battle cry of freedom.

Oh pump it in him till he swells like a toy balloon.
The fool pretends that liberty is not a precious boon.
But we'll contrive to make him see the beauty of it soon.
Shouting the battle cry of freedom.

Keep the piston going boys and let the banner wave.
The banner that floats proudly o'er the noble and the brave.
Keep on till the squirt gun breaks or he explodes the slave.
Shouting the battle cry of freedom.

Chorus (variant at end):

Hurrah. Hurrah. We bring the Jubilee.
Hurrah. Hurrah. The flag that makes him free.
We've got him down and bound, so let's fill him full of liberty.
Shouting the battle cry of freedom.

For the record the Taft administration worked actively to portray the Filipino's as uneducated African tribesmen, hence the use of the n-word in the song.

American soldiers waterboarding a Filipino was actually on the cover of Life magazine, May 22nd 1902.

While we are on the topic of warcrimes, American generals gave the order to kill everyone over 10. No one was ever charged.

While China has actively protested changes to Japanese history books that downplay their atrocities, the US has largely ignored any protests by the Philippines about their downplaying the atrocities.

In fact despite experts having shown the claims to be outright false, they still describe those killed in the Phillipines as "freedom fighters" and not civilians and vastly reduce the numbers.

In WWII, Japanese and German prisoners shown to have participated in waterboarding were executed for warcrimes establishing a legal precedent that the US belives that waterboarding is a warcrime, and also a capital offense. Yet for several years in the 21st century they actively pursued it.

[Saheli]

I think we would get a lot more accomplished in this thread if we would stop talking about each other and start discussing the actual topic...It's fine to ask for sources and question points made, but this is absolutely ridiculous.