The accpetance of snuff in stories

[Widget]

IMHO just because the Library is called 'BDSM' does not make it an exclusive repository of BDSM feelgood tales, recipes and recollections (not to mention braggings). If I was to ban anything from the site it would be the lifestyle sections which do not belong in a library! Fiction it is, fiction it should be, and censorship of any kind squelches fiction.

First of all, Welcome Jeanne to the forums, I agree with the last part as far as the stories go. Censorship + fiction should never meet. In fact censorship has no doubt contributed to many a bad idea and or work that never should have gotten more than a passing glance in the first place recieving far more attention than it deserved.

I do believe that the lifestyle section has a valuable place in the forums. The forums are meant for an exchange of ideas and for like minded people to meet and talk. The opinions, jokes and other threads in that section of the forums make it a true multi faceted community, not just a one dimensional one. It is just another part of this online community that makes it a good place for many people to feel comfortable in posting and communicating.

Still IMHO, bad grammar and punctuation are worse turnoffs than snuff!

I agree 100 %. Some of the errors are so glaringly obvious that the authors should be consigned to the section of hell that forces people to read stories of that kind for eternity.

[shins]

i've had a fetish for snuff ever since i raided my neighbor's panty drawer as a kid and found a box of it... no.. wait, i have a fetish for panties...snuff doesnt do much for me, lol.

In all seriousness, censorship is the devil, and while i personally don't like snuff, it should be here.

[Jeanne F]

Sorry Widget I was tweaking your er, tail about lifestyle. I won't ban anything except the hideous 'I/i' convention.

[Widget]

Sorry Widget I was tweaking your er, tail about lifestyle. I won't ban anything except the hideous 'I/i' convention.

hehe I am with you on that 100%

[Timberwolf]

Snuff doesn't turn me on at all, however I don't really view it as different from any other form of entertainment centering around violence. "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" anyone?

I also don't really get the turnoff around incest as fantasy either. How we can all sit around and condone play slavery, but then get indignant over calling someone "Mommy", is beyond me.

[wistan]

Snuff doesn't turn me on at all, however I don't really view it as different from any other form of entertainment centering around violence. "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" anyone?

I also don't really get the turnoff around incest as fantasy either. How we can all sit around and condone play slavery, but then get indignant over calling someone "Mommy", is beyond me.

I think many people think that because somebody has an erotic fantasy about something, they at least partly want to do it in reality. With something like corporal punishment that isn't such a big deal, but incest and murder and paedophilia are pretty serious, deeply held taboos - and while there's no really consistent logical reason for incest to be forbidden by society, people are indoctrinated to find it really disgusting. And murder and padeophilia are taboo for pretty good and obvious reasons. So it creeps people out a bit to see that they turn others on.

None of which makes it sensible, but that's at least part of the reason behind it IMHO.

[Timberwolf]

One one hand yeah it's perfectly obvious why incest stories give people the heebie-jeebies, it's one of society's very dark taboos. For some reasons legitimate (potential exploitation of children, for one), and others more or less imaginary. But on the other hand it's not any different to me than any other fantasy to me. I've read my share of incest, it doesn't mean that for even a second that I'd sleep with my mom, or something. Granted I have a couple female cousins I'd admit an attraction to, but it's not like I'd ever act on that. I've also read plenty of BDSM stories about blackmail, kidnapping, slave auctions in the back of dark warehouses, scenes based around the concept of "non-consent but then she enjoys it" etc... hell, that stuff is more or less good fun, when done well. I can see to a point why some people have a problem with drawing the line between reality and fantasy with a subject like snuff or incest, but for me just because I enjoy it on paper desn't mean it needs to be something I enjoy in life. But it does seem that most people have a very subjective line in their mind for what is "okay" in fantasy and what is not.

I did go through an "incest story phase" about three years ago before I was into BDSM, a lot of "Mommy" stories, when what I was *really* looking for in hindsight was FemDom. It's not like I advocate incest in real life (though quite frankly, so long as it involves consenting adults I think it's nobody's business), but I admit I got a lot of kick out of quite a few stories on the subject.

Really, about the only "I really won't read that" limit I can think of for myself is scat play, which is also a very hard an unflexing limit for me in real life. I simply find it very repulsive... I suppose no different than some people are outright repulsed at an incest story, which I am not. I also don't like golden showers, though I'm not repulsed as much as by scat, it certainly is no turn on for me. I also try and avoid snuff, as I find it more "distasteful" as subject matter than "repulsive". I've never seen a snuff scene in a story that really turned me on, and I haven't read very many that list it as part of it's subjject matter. Oh, stories with very young children are an automatic no-zone as well, but this place doesn't have that. Teenage stories... it depends. After all, I was a horny teenager once too.

So I guess we all have our limits. But freedom of speech protects all of it, as I suppose it should. If you cut off one, what's to stop from another being cut off next? One of the things I like about this place is that most of the community seems very non-judgemental when it comes to what fantasies turn others on, and that's something to be commended and fostered.

[Polecat]

About the snuff topic. I wonder if those who do not want it here really realize what the S in BDSM stands for: Sadism. Sadism comes from Monsieur le Marquis de Sade, who wrote a bunch of early SM stuff.
Now those people who are so critical of snuff fiction. Guys (or gals) Would you then deny the Marquis the right to post his stories here?
Please go read Justine, or Juliette, or The Philosophy in the Boudoir. (No I shall not mention The 120 days ... That particular one shouldn't be read by anyone-I do have a copy in my collection, for completeness sake, you know-)
His writings are all full of snuff, most of it non consensual.
Do we want to take the S out of BDSM?

[wistan]

Certainly I think it would be a very slippery slope to say that any given thing has no place here. Personally I don't object to snuff in stories, and have even toyed with having it in my own work on occasion (including in the one I'm working on now). Though in my case it's the fact that the act is committed that is of interest, not the act itself - most of our stories here revolve around one person exercising control over another, and what greater degree of control can you have than quite literally having someone's life in your hands, and taking it? That idea can be a turn-on, at least to me. But detailed descriptions of one person killing another are simply not erotic to me.

There's no difference in principle between banning the depiction of snuff and banning the depiction of a whipping. Both are a crime, both are frowned upon by most of society, most people get at least a bit weirded out by the idea that people find either one sexy.

But there are limits, IMHO. For instance, I think the age 13 limit is a little low; I'd like to see it at least two years higher, if not three. But I can live with 13; if I find a story with a character of that age I just mentally pretend they're older, or I stop reading, but the simple fact that such material is available here doesn't bother me much. I could probably live with 12 or 11. But if this site ever lowered the age to, say, 5 - that would be the last it ever saw of me.

Is that a logical, rationally supportable position? Not really, in my opinion. But it's how I feel anyway, regardless. I suppose that makes me no different in kind to those who won't come here because snuff is allowed, or scat, or spanking, or whatever.

At the end of the day we are here precisely because we're a little kinkier than most, or a little more honest about how kinky we are, maybe? But that doesn't mean we should have an "absolutely anything goes" rule.

[Jeanne F]

About the snuff topic. I wonder if those who do not want it here really realize what the S in BDSM stands for: Sadism. Sadism comes from Monsieur le Marquis de Sade, who wrote a bunch of early SM stuff.
Now those people who are so critical of snuff fiction. Guys (or gals) Would you then deny the Marquis the right to post his stories here?
Please go read Justine, or Juliette, or The Philosophy in the Boudoir. (No I shall not mention The 120 days ... That particular one shouldn't be read by anyone-I do have a copy in my collection, for completeness sake, you know-)
His writings are all full of snuff, most of it non consensual.
Do we want to take the S out of BDSM?

An excellent remark. Also even his most repulsive stories of non consensual snuff (he also wrote some consensual snuff) still leave a troubling area of uncertainty about the victims' feelings. He plays the whole gamut from coercion to eagerness thru resignation with a light and elegant touch.

As for the 120 days it is, as you say, a must have; but it is also a must read for the most seasoned reader. I read it as a kid and I survived but I was thankful that there also was Story of O to redeem kinky sex! although I found his obsession with scat much more repulsive than his snuff mania. Murder is mainstream in literature and entertainment.

For those who want to have a complete library like you, I have the 120 days in French and in English. Just ask. Nicely illustrated too.

[_ID_]

At the end of the day we are here precisely because we're a little kinkier than most, or a little more honest about how kinky we are, maybe? But that doesn't mean we should have an "absolutely anything goes" rule.

I was in total agreement with your line of thinking, up to the last sentence. Why would you limit the possibility of someone else's exploration in literature, simply because you found it distasteful? You could be okay with a story the features an 11yo child, yes child. The very idea to most anyone you ask is repulsive. Yet at the same time your okay with consensual, or non-consensual killing of humans (we are talking in a fictional sense for both).

Read through all pages of this thread, you will find my stance on the subject. I don't particularly want to repeat myself.

V/R
ID

[wistan]

I was in total agreement with your line of thinking, up to the last sentence. Why would you limit the possibility of someone else's exploration in literature, simply because you found it distasteful? You could be okay with a story the features an 11yo child, yes child. The very idea to most anyone you ask is repulsive. Yet at the same time your okay with consensual, or non-consensual killing of humans (we are talking in a fictional sense for both).

Read through all pages of this thread, you will find my stance on the subject. I don't particularly want to repeat myself.

V/R
ID

I didn't say I want to place limits on what others do. What I said was I place limits on what I will read or be associated with. If others want to write or read stories about haxing sex with 5 year olds, that's their business. If this site wants to host such material that's the owner's business. All I said was that I won't support it, or be a part of a place that does.

People have every right to be into whatever they want (as you say, in the fiction sense). And please understand that I am most emphatically NOT judging those people, or saying that I am any better than they are. But I can't stomach it, I don't want to be able to stomach it, and while they have every right to do and like it they don't have a right to my acceptance of it or a right to my company whilst they do it.

And yes, that attitude is logically inconsistent with my approval of - and even enjoyment of - depicting murder, etc. I know that, I accept it, I said so in my last post. If others want to cast that same judgement on me I would absolutely understand that. So be it.

[_ID_]

My post was in reference to what I marked in bold in your first post. You suggested not having an anything goes rule. So my post, in reference to that remains accurate as I see it.

V/R
ID

[wistan]

My post was in reference to what I marked in bold in your first post. You suggested not having an anything goes rule. So my post, in reference to that remains accurate as I see it.

V/R
ID

I disagree. As I said, I think there should be at least some rules. Others may want a free for all, and I don't condemn that desire. But as they have a right to their opinion I surely have a right to mine don't I? And the owner of the site gets to decide which view carries the day, here at least.

[_ID_]

I disagree. As I said, I think there should be at least some rules. Others may want a free for all, and I don't condemn that desire. But as they have a right to their opinion I surely have a right to mine don't I? And the owner of the site gets to decide which view carries the day, here at least.

You do have the right to disagree with me, and to have your own opinion.

The site owner has already made his/her decision, and I accept it. As I understand the reasoning was to avoid controversy and percecution for hosting stories featuring persons under the age of 13. Not for personal views such that you have.

Glad to know I will have someone who enjoys debating a view, and able to stand by it. I look forward to our discussions other places on the boards.

V/R
ID

[wistan]

Glad to know I will have someone who enjoys debating a view, and able to stand by it. I look forward to our discussions other places on the boards.

V/R
ID

Likewise. I enjoy having my views challenged and challenging the views of others, it's the best way to find flaws in my thinking! Look forward to further discussion...

[sheilagirl]

Why the Hell should it not be acceptable to read about it here? It's accepted everywhere else. (movies, books, etc.) Why not here? It's only unacceptable (and damn well should be) when someone can't keep it on a fantasy level and has to practice it for real.

It is totally not right for someone else to decide what I can read/write. If I commit a crime, then of course that's wrong and I'm subject to punishment by others, BUT I sure haven't commited a crime if I write fiction about it. What I can't understand is WHY so many people can't see this simple yet VAST difference.

[cariad]

sheilagirl, my personal stance is that I that I do not like, or even approve of snuff stories, whether consensual or not. But that is only my opinion, it is one shared by some members, whilst others take a very different stance. However the bottom line on this subject is that the owner of the site has made a decision that snuff fiction is permitted. Everyone who uses this site has to accept that, although obviously we all have free choice as to whether to embrace them as you do, or avoid them as I will. We also ultimately have the option of not using the site.

cariad


p.s. As I am sure you have discovered reading these threads, reasoned debate is encouraged and everyone's contribution is welcome. However since you last posted the tone of discussion has changed and we do encourage people not to use emotive language and to show respect for other people's opinions.

[mkemse]

cariad,
I do agree with you, altho the owners word is final i beleve we have enough real violence and death in the real world without fictionalizing it, but then again this is just my opinion

[_ID_]

cariad,
I do agree with you, altho the owners word is final i beleve we have enough real violence and death in the real world without fictionalizing it, but then again this is just my opinion

We fictionalize snuff in horror movies, why is it not ok to do it in an erotic story?

[mkemse]

We fictionalize snuff in horror movies, why is it not ok to do it in an erotic story?

IDCrewDog,
What I meant and apprently I was not clear is I was not talking about fictionalizing it in movies was ok but not in stories, what my intend was to say is was, In reality in the real world we have enough snuff and violence with out caring into movies or stories, if i came across as saying yes in movie but no in stories i correct that now
I do not care for snuff movies or stories myself,and if need be, i can to read or see these all i need to do is watch the news on a daily basis or read the paper on a daily basis, i do not need to see it fictionalize it in either movies or stories in print, but in the United States we have freedom of expresion and print, and altho i might now agree with it, as an Ameircna Citizen I will defend with my life the right of the author to make the movie or print the story if they want to
There are many thing i do not agree with in this Country, but our freedom's in 99% of the cases are guaranteed, with the expection of 2 things NOT protect by freedom of speech and these 2 things are fairly widely know

[ElectricBadger]

Opinions are good things I guess the two questions that come to mind are first, Can people enjoy snuff without having a harmful personality, and second, Does snuff have something beneficial to offer society?

To the first, I can soundly say Yes. I can cheer as the Gubernator mows down baddies with a chaingun and still be a normal, rational person. The second is more tricky, and perhaps requires the viewpoint of someone into the genre specifically, but I do feel that if nothing else snuff allows us to explore the lines between reason and desire and to acknowledge the darker parts of our personalities in order to confront and check them in our normal lives.

On the other hand, I see too many real dead people to find any appeal the act or state.

[Longterm247]

It is up to us to illustrate what we want and feel. Personally, I think human beings are very complex characters and wanting to read a fictional story about snuff is simply a fantasy.

[H Dean]

Snuff:

I think we need to define the meaning. Generally, I define snuff as killing of an individual while committing an erotic or sexual act. As I understand it, snuff films are exactly that.

On the other hand, I do not consider murder to be snuff. I consider it to be, simply, murder; the taking of a human life. In this regard, most mainstream hollywood films that include murder are not snuff films. Likewise, stories depicting murder or death while not engaging in an erotic or sexual act are not to be placed in the snuff genre.

The trick is in defining what we are talking about. Is snuff considered, by most of us, to be killing another person while engaging in a sexual or erotic act or is it any taking of a human life?

personally, I won't read most stories that depict my definition of snuff. I find snuff to be unerotic and quite distasteful. But I will support anyone who wishes to write or read them.

Oh, let's get off the notion that we aren't judging others or their penchant for writing or reading snuff stories. We are judging. We make judgements in everything we do. We have friends and enemies, people we like or dislike. That is judging. Frankly, I wouldn't trust someone who did not judge people or their likes. It is the condemnation of expression we need to avoid. Even, and especially, if said expression is foul to us.

[_ID_]

Snuff:

I think we need to define the meaning. Generally, I define snuff as killing of an individual while committing an erotic or sexual act. As I understand it, snuff films are exactly that.

On the other hand, I do not consider murder to be snuff. I consider it to be, simply, murder; the taking of a human life. In this regard, most mainstream hollywood films that include murder are not snuff films.

I disagree with you on the definition.

quoting wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snuff_film

A snuff film is a pop culture term for any number of possible definitions regarding a motion picture purporting to depict an actual death.

quote from urban dictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snuff

1. (verb) To kill, assassinate, destroy, murder.
2. (adj.) A real (not staged) filmed murder; usually of raping and killing a woman. In some cases it is viewed for sexual arousal.

1. A lot of people got mugged and snuffed here.

2. There was this one underground snuff film of a guy getting tortured with a razor blade.

To me the difference between what we see in mainstream Hollywood, and what would be beyond what people are able to process and accept as normal.

A film such as the Saw series, would fall into the snuff theme, and is accepted by mainstream society. A film that shows a more graphic real torture such as a person getting shot in the head, or their head cut off. As is done by Muslim extremists. Both are snuff films, one is real, the other is fictionalized.

So the difference lay in what would fall out of the realm of fiction, and when that happens. Then it becomes unacceptable. Till then, its simply fantasy same as an incest story, same as a kidnapping story, same as a rape story. All subjects are crimes of the most vile manner, yet snuff is the only one most of you take issue with.

As to judging others, yes I judge people, but I keep my opinion to myself unless I am speaking to someone with the same views as mine. To point at someone or something and to say it is wrong, when it is perfectly legal, is inviting judgment on what you enjoy.

Me personally, I would rather not have people tell me what I can or can't do so long as it's mostly inside of whats legal. I say that last statement because BDSM activities are illegal in some states, I will still do them.

ID

[H Dean]

I disagree with you on the definition.

quoting wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snuff_film


quote from urban dictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snuff


To me the difference between what we see in mainstream Hollywood, and what would be beyond what people are able to process and accept as normal.

A film such as the Saw series, would fall into the snuff theme, and is accepted by mainstream society. A film that shows a more graphic real torture such as a person getting shot in the head, or their head cut off. As is done by Muslim extremists. Both are snuff films, one is real, the other is fictionalized.

So the difference lay in what would fall out of the realm of fiction, and when that happens. Then it becomes unacceptable. Till then, its simply fantasy same as an incest story, same as a kidnapping story, same as a rape story. All subjects are crimes of the most vile manner, yet snuff is the only one most of you take issue with.

As to judging others, yes I judge people, but I keep my opinion to myself unless I am speaking to someone with the same views as mine. To point at someone or something and to say it is wrong, when it is perfectly legal, is inviting judgment on what you enjoy.

Me personally, I would rather not have people tell me what I can or can't do so long as it's mostly inside of whats legal. I say that last statement because BDSM activities are illegal in some states, I will still do them.

ID

You illustrated my point perfectly, Dawg.

[cariad]

I think it is very important to distinguish between judging the person and the act.

I will do my utmost not to judge the person, which does not preclude acknowledging whether or not I enjoy their company; and if I have discover that I am holding someone in judgment then I will actively release them from it. I do however consider it unwise not judge behaviour or attitudes or standards or beliefs, because to not do so means that we consider everything to be acceptable, and that is the top of a very slippery slope.

cariad

[mkemse]

Question to anyone who lives in the United States

Aside from the 2 widely know things that can not be said in public as our Constitution does not protect either of these thing as Freedom of Speach, is anyone aware of anything else that is not protected by freedom of speech when said or spoken?? I ask as question not as a quizz

[Rabbit1]

all of this is a mute point ---snuff fantasy is acceptable on this site and forever shall be unless the US should pass a law against it ---until then --if you don't like it ---don't read it

[Guest 91108]

Some people will discuss mute points forever.