Why I should keep my mouth shut

[Tojo]

LOL...almost did it Tojo!

Go girl!

Tojo

[Dongthong2005]

Wow Brasco: what a very accurate understanding you have of our situation (at least part of it). In the last two paragraphs, you summed it up well.
Thanks

Dongthong

[Brosco]

Wow Brasco: what a very accurate understanding you have of our situation (at least part of it). In the last two paragraphs, you summed it up well.
Thanks

Dongthong

While it does my ego good to know that I got it right, this isn't a 'quizmaster' TV show, but reallife. It places a lot of onus back on you D to be patient with your wife as she struggles through understanding more about herself. This clearly isn't easy for her or she would not have posted in the first place about her fears and confusion. She is going to need your support and understanding to work thru and live with her life's choices.

It is not a 'weak' Dom that can step back and look at his subbies needs and cries for guidance. It is one of the strengths that keeps her with him. It is a strong Dom that can see he is also part of the 'problem' and is prepared to be self critical and make changes in himself too.

I have the confidence that you know this and, not only allowed your wife to post here, but did so yourself when others in your position would have taken exception to some of the more 'hostile' responses. I admire you both for being able to share some of the tougher parts of a lifestyle, instead of just the rose-coloured glasses part that some want us to see.

I do wish you both the very best in the future as you work thru issues together and grow even closer, rather than apart. For that, you should be the envy of many people here.

If either of you ever need a third person as a shoulder or an ear, I will be happy to hear from you, either here, or privately.

My sincere regards

Brosco

[whippedcream]

I don't pretend to be as experienced as others who have put up some excellent posts here, but I might offer one idea...

About the revoking of the safeword. If it is done because your wife wants to please you, then I can think of two possibilities: if you think she's really had enough, you can tell her the scene is over, period, but still make it clear that you love her and it's not her fault her body isn't up to the play levels you both fantasize about. This kind of reassurance is important for emotionally vulnerable or insecure people, and it might help her make safer choices about when to use her word. (And yes, that might leave you unsatisfied a couple of times - which sucks, but has the upside of demonstrating to both of you that you take the responsability for your sub's welfare seriously.)

A second possibility is one I found on the thread about safewords. Someone suggested a system of signalling by holding up different numbers of fingers to let the top know how close the sub is to safewording. Or simply having two safewords, like "red" and "yellow," to signal FULL STOP versus EASE UP THAT'S TOO MUCH. That would allow you to scale things back somewhat so that you wouldn't have to just cut a scene short.

Good luck with everything!

[Barton]

Without the proper knowledge a BDSM relationship can easily become an abusive one. Both involved parties owe it themselves and each other to gain that knowledge before proceeding down a dangerous path.

But the dom is ultimetly the one who has the responsibility to protect his sub. Even to the point of protecting them from themselves.

There are many articles to help a dom gain knowledge about BDSM. Many are posted here. While learning by doing is sometimes a good thing, studying can help avoid many of the problems that this couple is having.

BDSM is no game to be played lightly if it is to be than just casual kinky sex. And people who wish to live it as a lifestyle should do their homework before playing.

While even the best doms will always learn by doing, they will also make sure that they have studied everything that they can in advance of real playtime.

His sub uses a safeword and then tries to take it back. That is a situation that screams out that there is a lack of understanding, planning, and control of both sub and scene. I make no apologies for my comments. This is not some parlor game!

[learningtopleez]

Brosco it seems to me that the wife has said many things to contradict what you are saying. You feel that the Dom is not an abuser, yet Tojo pointed out a line in which she did use those exact words!

She also said these disturbing words:

Donghtong likes dominating me because it’s a thing of power. Trully, I don’t understand completely what he means because he makes me feel like I am the bad/stupid person. (Sorry, I don't know how to insert from her post.)

Those words scream abuse to me. You say that your sister was in an abusive relationship for over 20 years! Surely at some point she told you how he treated her, things he said, etc. Maybe you even did some research on domestic violence, in which case I would think you would be concerned for this lady too! You don't make someone you love feel bad or stupid. Now if he is calling her a "bad little girl" in a scene, that's one thing, but she isn't very clear, and it just makes me think the worst.

She also had this to say:

The problem is his power issue/desire to control has a lot of humiliation in it (and constant) and involves punishment that is sometimes too painful. Sometims it is too hard, but we let it go.

She does state that they let it go, but if a woman is being abused, it is more likely that she is letting it go. In other words, what I take from this, is that to prevent things from escalating even further, she probably listens to him apologize profusely and listens to him tell her that he will never let it happen again, hoping that it won't. Problem there is, it will happen again, and again, and again. Btw...if the humiliation is private or not, we also don't know. We don't even know what type of humiliation it is. Btw....I happen to like humiliation within a D/s relationship when it is time for play, but punishment that is too painful or hard is not acceptable.

And finally this:

However, he is strong with his words, and they hurt sometimes. He gets very frustrated with my behavior, and because I can’t make up a decision on my own- let's the words fly.

Verbal abuse, physical abuse...neither is good. I was assaulted by an ex b/f some years back while in a vanilla relationship. I never had any signs that he might do this to me and I had known him for 20 years. We had only been living together for about 2 1/2 years when the assault took place. I did lots of research, because like dongthongs wife I felt I had done something wrong. Then I talked with some folks in domestic violence centers, and found out that it is a pattern for abusers to first try and control, then to change little things about you...the way you dress and the way you fix your hair and make-up. His father had abused his mother and he was continuing a cycle.

BDSM is supposed to be safe, sane, and concensual, neither of which I am seeing from the little I have read from this lady. That is my concern. I don't want her to be hurt, nor him either, for that matter. But I do call 'em how I see 'em! And this reeks of abuse! IMHO anyway.

[Tojo]

(Sorry, I don't know how to insert from her post.)

Just copy & paste the quote into the reply window, highlight it, then click on the little icon above to the left of the # it says "wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text" when you hold the cursor over it.

Way cool.


Tojo

[Brosco]

I was discussing my last post with ffantassy, and she raised a very important point about one of my statements:

Couple this with the invoking a safe word, but retracting it 15 minutes later, again she was finding what she was receiving was too much, but 15 minutes later wanted to receive it again!

fantasy asked the question: did she revoke her use of the safeword, or was she cojoled into it by her husband/dom? This would make a very big difference! If she did this entirely herself, then I definitely stand by my posts, but if she was swayed, then I must agree with the abuse angle that others are seeing.

Brosco

[Dongthong2005]

FFantasy: this (revoking the safe word) happened a couple of times. I always obeyed it, but displayed frustration (verbally and with body language). However, she feels horrible if she doesn't satisfy me sexually, and thus revokes the safe word. Thus, will sometimes beg to have her pussy punished, even grab my hand and pull it towards her pussy. We are working on improving this as I know it is unhealthy for BOTH of US. Dongthong

[Phantome]

this (revoking the safe word) happened a couple of times. I always obeyed it, but displayed frustration (verbally and with body language). However, she feels horrible if she doesn't satisfy me sexually, and thus revokes the safe word.

This is a big problem for me. A sub should NEVER be made to feel guilty or humiliated for using a safeword. It sounds like she wanted to end or slow down the scene, but took it back because you guilt-tripped her into doing so. As the dom, you may be in control and administering the "punishments," but your #1 job is looking out for and protecting this cherished person who completely gave her trust and control to you; it is your duty to live up to that expectation, and if you violate that trust, you've completely failed her.

If you can't conrol yourself enough in a D/s scene to prevent it from escalating into abuse, then you should not participate in a scene until you can figure out how to keep it under control. There are more aspects to being a dom than getting some animalistic thrill out of outright abuse and violence, and trying to cover it up by saying it is within a D/s relationship is very, very wrong. Especially when you are taking advantage of the vulnerability of someone who has suffered abuse in the past. Very wrong, indeed.
-Phantome

[whippedcream]

I think Phantome is being too hard on Dongthong. Dongthong and wife posted a problem that they're *both* aware of and trying to solve. The problem calls for advice on two-party behavior modification, not simply judging DT totally responsible because he's the top.

When DT says he displays frustration when she uses her safeword, I took "frustration" to mean literally frustration, sexual or otherwise. However, I know sometimes people use "frustration" as a politer way of referring to anger. I think DT would deserve Phantome's lecture if he's been displaying anger towards his sub when she has to safe out, but that doesn't sound to me like what's been happening. If his wife feels guilty for ending a scene before he's satisfied, that may be something that comes from within, rather than something he's "guilt-tripped" her into. In short, I think the couple ought to work out the problems together, and not put all the blame on DT simply because he tops.

[Phantome]

I agree that this is a two-way road, WhippedCream. However, I don't feel entirely unjustified for my concern. I think when a dom assumes the role of the dom, he or she automatically assumes the majority of the responsibility. They are in control, and if it gets out of control, most of the blame lies with the dom.

Of course, that is not to say that the sub doesn't provoke or influence much of the dom's behavior, but the dom should still be in control enough to recognize when a certain behavior, activity, or attitude is not healthy for their relationship, or if a sub is acting in a way that could jeopardize his or her well-being. That's when the dom should immediately put a stop to said behavior, activity, or attitude.

I think when inklings of abuse begin to creep into a D/s relationship, there is cause for concern. I commend this couple for being open enough and concerned enough to seek out help and advice. That shows me that they really do love and care for each other, and that they want to fix their problems rather than just give up. Best wishes, DT and wife.
-Phantome

[Dongthong2005]

Dongtong here: regarding learningtopleez comments- WAY OFF. My wife has, in her words, "reached a point in my life I thought would never come true." She is much more confident and proud of who she is. I dought she would have acheived this in a relationship if it was abusive. I am not saying she is a better person because of me- I would never say that. Hands down she is a great person because she continually tries to be a better person, and for the manyother reasons- like make me feel good. I did not grow up an abusive house. My father, mother and brother and sisters never help back their words. Like "stop bothering me", "how many times do I have to tell you don't do that to me?" etc.. As for the punishment- ya we do need to define CLEARLY what is too much. I can tell you, there has never been a time that she is not totally wet. But I can also tell you, there have been times that I was unsure how far to go and pushed it. THat was wrong- no matter what she says- because I didn't control myself. A writer said something about agressions without control is not a enjoyable. He was right. When it is rushed and I am ruff I may not get hard until I slow down. Thanks

[learningtopleez]

Dongtong here: regarding learningtopleez comments- WAY OFF.

Dongthong...I have never been more pleased to be "way off!" And I apologize to you and your wife for accusing you of abuse when it is just the two of you learning your way.

My wife has, in her words, "reached a point in my life I thought would never come true."

And you are a very lucky woman Dongthong's wife! There is nothing as fullfilling as being submissive with the one you love! I am happy for you both!

I dought she would have acheived this in a relationship if it was abusive. I am not saying she is a better person because of me- I would never say that. Hands down she is a great person because she continually tries to be a better person, and for the manyother reasons- like make me feel good.

And you are right Dongthong, she could not have acheived such happiness if she were in an abusive relationship! And your love for her shines through in the words you write. Again I apologize for assuming and accusing and can only hope that you both can forgive me!! I am glad you came back and explained things to us more clearly! I am also happy that the two of you are continuing to communicate with each other as well, and I wish you much love and happiness!

My deepest regards,
~ltp~

[Ozme52]

Dang I'm good....

[Masters_lilone]

you shold ask to set one day aside and just talk to him not as a sub/slave and tell him that you can only take so much pain and that he needs to go slow with you and learn how much you can take. it sound to me like he is pushing you too fast. depending on how long the two of you have been in the relationship if this is a relationship just starting out then i would say he is pushing you too fast and should slow down a bit. and as for getting punished for asking him to take it easy on you that is so unfair. a relationship of this type is based on love and trust. a Dom/Master is suposed to love and protect there girl or boy and would never push them to take any more then what they actually can take. pushing a girl or boy needs to be done slowly so there Dom/Master can learn what they like and how much they can take: