More from craven "Domming from the bottom or topping from below"

Domming from the bottom or topping from below


Well I never thought that I would be posting so soon after my last thread, “Craven’s Shopping Trip”. But then I suppose I have a tolerance to Cravens Smart Ass mouth, so am used to his smart backchat, read into that what you will…….

First off I have to apologise to Violett whom I lunched with today, about 30 minutes later than perhaps she had planned.

For those that know Craven well you will know that out of working hours, time and he are but distant strangers, I work on the principal that if it is not work related then the minute hand is really not that important in time keeping, in fact this has been know to drift over into hour hand territory!

I realised that as I climbed out of the shower at 12:25 the chances of me making it to Violett some 15 miles and several windy road connected villages away by 12:30, were pretty slim, well my only chance depended on there having been a flux capacitor fitted to my car during the night, alas this was not so, my car remained unmodified.

So sorry Violett, hope you enjoyed the lunch when we did finally got to eat it.


Now I know you will be eager to get to the meat of my post so to speak, well to be fair to my Miss it was more a generic assignment, hence the decision to post publicly (Hers obviously not mine, although I of course feel that it is a very, very good decision, goes without saying, I might have a smart ass mouth but I “aint” stupid!)

To set the scene, My Miss was discussing some recent good news, I was congratulating her on her success, she then as only women seem able (realises that this is sweeping statement and likely to cause uproar, however in the interests of equality craven will address this later so read on) we went from back slapping and congratulations to “of course it will end in failure at the next step”, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory so to speak, as only women seem truly adept at doing, there seems to be a love of most things negative, which maybe explains there love os us men, who knows, I will throw it out there?

Well craven felt that it was his duty, as well as his desire to boost Miss’s moral, to provide her with that often welcomed (so he thought, oh how wrong he was to be proven!) boost and reassurance.

Now I hasten to add here, in the sake of fairness as well as in an attempt to mitigate any future resulting punishments coming my way. I was in the wrong here, this is not an attempt to provide any excuses for my actions, My message was it could be argued a well timed one and more than justified, however my method of delivery was well let’s just say less than appropriate, in fact it is harder to think of anything less inappropriate in fact, other than maybe Freddie Kruger taking up child minding perhaps. Nothing could have been more inappropriate, ill judged or simply flawed.

Rather than offering her my body to beat so as to lift her from her gloom, or offering kindly words of encouragement (and here comes the redress ladies) craven did as most men often do and operated his mouth before fully engaging brain and promptly managed to insert his foot straight into his wide open gob, scoring a spectacular own goal in the process. (Balance restored me thinks there)

As I have said being a sub is not natural to me, I am a switch, although I am a very poor sub within a Ds relationship, my Miss is very patient and I appreciate this greatly. She has taught me a lot and I have grown as a person and also a prospective Dom from her tutelage.

So rather that seeking to please and reassure my Miss as a good sub would do, craven’s old Dom tendencies surfaced and I attempted to Dom my Miss from beneath, how, well this is irrelevant, as is really the intent, or my awareness of this action.

My Miss was very quick to identify what I had done, well attempted to do really, perhaps even before I did and she soon restored the balance of power (I say balance I mean obviously as in back towards her favour)

A severe reprimand was soon issued and craven was left in no doubt as to the error of his ways, and the possible ramifications of allowing such behaviour to continue. A suitable punishment was also meted out, as you will see from reading this post, as this is indeed the said punishment.

You see not only is it disrespectful to your Dom (me) to attempt to or even unintentionally Dom from beneath/top from the bottom but it is also potential very dangerous if not corrosive and ruinous to your overall relationship with your Dom(me).

We all of us I am sure agree that there is a need to test boundary’s, to push against our limits and the imposed parameters of our relationships. I know of many subs that do so as the resulting enforcing of these limits and parameters results in them finding reassurance in the knowledge of their existence.

From this they obtain comfort and subsequently their joy in their submission, to allow these limits to be eroded or pushed back will in effect result in the Dom losing his or her control of the relationship, the balance of power will be redistributed, and the submissive who had found reassurance and happiness in knowing that their boundary’s were still being enforced will find them selves less and less comfortable in taking back their power, and in not knowing where the boundary’s and parameters of the relationship now exist.

You see, that it is in both party’s interests to maintain the power ratio, to retain the Dom(me)s control and respect. If this is lost, it is not only the Dom(me) who loses out, the sub will also eventually find them self without the control that they need and seek.

In this the needs of the relationship are equally matched, it is the same with tasks and instructions from one’s Dom(me) failure to do as instructed is in effect only cheating oneself, once this respect begins to become eroded the fabric of the power balance starts to unravel.

Yes the Dom(me) expects/demands respect and adherence to this and their control of the relationship, however it is in the self-interest of the sub to adhere, and not seek to undermine.

My Miss was well within her rights to quickly address my behaviour, I wrote this in this way so as to help you see that although some may have seen my infringement as well meaning, or minor, the potential repercussions for our ongoing relationship could have been seriously undermined had my actions first of all not been identified by My Domma, and then subsequently, however well meaning they might have been addressed and punished.

As with all of craven’s posts I would welcome your thoughts, comments and feedback.

To summarise I am now aware that whilst I always knew that Domming from beneath was potentially not a positive thing, failure to address this instantly WILL have longer lasting negative impact upon the Ds dynamic.

Come on guy’s feedback?

im really really new at this so i warn people.. you may prefer to ignore this :D

as far as i know (that is a limited knowledge) in a D/s relationship.. although is the Dom that set the rules.. the sub is the one setting limits.. so wouldn't that be some kind of "domming from the bottom"?


harmony:wave:

Harmony

Thanks for reading this, not so sure about posting a reply as it keeps my short comings in the pubic eye ( i joke of course) yes you are right to a degree, although every relationship is different, in essence the balance of power remains (this is my opinion by the way) the same as you say the sub sets the limits etc but it is the ratio of that balance that is altered limits are set together, and many Dom(me) s will seek to push these just as subs will test the boundary's set by their masters and mistresses, to say that once set these never change would be flawed, it is a flexible and constantly changing dynamic.

Keep posting, you do make an excellent point, as said in my humble opinion, I agree with you in so much as in surrender their is strength and trust, the sub does not simply capitulate.

Thanks for lunch I did enjoy it a lot - and the apology although you weren't that late really

Craven,

That was quite an essay/apology. Well done.

You wrote:
My Miss was well within her rights to quickly address my behaviour, I wrote this in this way so as to help you see that although some may have seen my infringement as well meaning, or minor, the potential repercussions for our ongoing relationship could have been seriously undermined had my actions first of all not been identified by My Domma, and then subsequently, however well meaning they might have been addressed and punished.

So very true. If your behavior was not acceptable to her or to your relationship, then she was right on target to address the issue immediately.

To your continued success with your miss,

Ruby

That is one lenghty apology, Craven. If I summarise correctly, you made a remark that was not appreciated, that was inapproriate? And you doubt wether or not that was intentional to "test the limits"?

I really do not know if making a smart remark is misbehaving for starters
Also don't know if "misbehaving" means you are "topping from the bottom" or testing the boundaries.
Must confess I did "misbehave" myself and I wasn't testing limits then, just being playfull. However, underestimating the consequences of my position and actions at that time and being thoughtless at that. I admit that now :o
And even though I really hated the "correction" (as Violett no doubt remembers...) and still think it went a bit too far...must admit it did learn me some lessons.

Still.. I am ambivilent. When no harm is intended, when in fact rules are still to be set, is punishment the only way to learn?
Also, is there no place for some play, must it allways be that serious? And if the boundaries are unclear, how about your Miss at that? Shouldn't she have set those boundaries before instead of punishing you? (Guys.. not provoking here, honest!)

In your case, Craven, I have no idea what was said, but wouldn't a simple statement that your comment wasn't appreciated have been sufficient? Even if that meant we would have missed your writings on this? Why does it have to be a punishment, and why a public one at that?

And one last question.. perhaps too personal but still: did you feel and accept immediately that you indeed deserved punishment and this punishment at that, or did you resist and/or argue first? I admit that acceptence and then performing my punishment on some occasions took a big struggle on my part.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this one Rowen, you make some interesting observations and points.

With regard to the smart remark, this is a persistent failure on my part to address, I have been repeatedly warned, told, and punished in respect of this. It is a lesson I may never fully learn if totally honest, part of what makes me, me I guess.

As you say and I can confirm when I made my remark, attempted to offer support I did so with the best intentions, I was trying to help, however and I feel that this is the crucial element here I did so in the wrong way.

There were many ways in which I could have offered my support, and my Miss has talked this through with me and I understand this point clearly now.

I, at the time, however let my Dom characteristics surface and tried to impose my will upon my Miss, instead of offering support I was instructing, this was most definitely an act of “Topping from beneath” so to speak.

The intent is academic; it was the way in which I acted that was wrong and thus correctly punished. We do have light hearted discussions and often joke together, it is not all serious all the time, any one who knows either of us will tell you that we are not totally serious people and we both of us enjoy a laugh when appropriate, I was going to say we “share a sense of humour” then, you know the old joke, well we have to because she has not got one, but that would only get me into more trouble.

As for the limits being defined, they are very, very clearly set and agreed, and as a switch the need to ensure that I do not Dom from below is vitally important to us, as such any straying into this area by me is jumped on quickly and robustly by Miss.

The statement was appreciated, it was the way and manner in which I made it that was wrong I can see this and after we talked it through I had to agree that Miss was right, she had to act quickly to preserve the power balance. So yes I accepted my chastisement, understood the rational for it and set about my punishment. Miss was quite right to act as she did, and as I hope I highlighted the danger in all relationships in allowing the boundary’s to become blurred can result in the power dynamic being affected, the results could mean that both Dom(me) & sub end up the ultimate losers. I feel that having had the chance to discuss openly why I was being punished, what had been done wrong, and where I could have delivered the same or similar support in a more submissive way has helped me accept my wrongdoing and therefore my punishment.

Being "blessed" with a smart mouth I did of course seek to extricate myself from the hole that I had dug myself into, however as explained when we discussed it together I could clearly see that I had been wrong, the intent not being the issue here, my actions were inappropriate, and as such were rightly addressed, so no I have no problem with Miss’s treatment of me (and I would be mad to say otherwise)

Thanks again though for trudging through my post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harmony

im really really new at this so i warn people.. you may prefer to ignore this :D

as far as i know (that is a limited knowledge) in a D/s relationship.. although is the Dom that set the rules.. the sub is the one setting limits.. so wouldn't that be some kind of "domming from the bottom"?


harmony:wave:

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No hun, not even close. whatever you call it, the existance of limits does not constitute topping. What makes you think the sub's limits are by default tighter than the dom's?

No... topping from the bottom is about who controls how play proceeds once it begins.

Discussing limits, scenes, rules... is about communication and setting expectations. Thereafter, so long as those expectations are being kept, if the dom chooses the when, how, how often, how much, then he is dominating.

If you are telling him during the scene to hit you harder, tie you tighter, when to do this or that, well, that's topping. If you throw a tantrum to change how the scene proceeds, act the brat to modify his behavior, disobey on purpose (outside of a roleplay) to force a punishment, those are acts of topping.

Your limits are valid concerns... so don't give them up if someone suggests having them is topping.

I subsequently read replies by craven and rowen.

craven, there is no 'balance of power'. When you submit, you give up your power to the dominant. That doesn't mean you have no input... doesn't mean you can't take your submission back and end the relationship... doesn't mean you abbrogate your rights to have limits, some soft, some hard... but you hand your power over everything within those boundaries, to the dominant. If you believe there is a balance of power, I submit ;) that you are holding back.

rowen, your questions are all valid, and from my perspective, most dom/mes enjoy the things you ask about... room to be playful, to probe and explore the boundaries, to have a personality of your own. BUT... I will point out that whatever you do, regardless of intent, the perception of your dom/me is going to be his/her reality. If he/she sees an act as playful, then you are in sync. If he/she sees it at disobedient or disrespectful, then regardless of your intent, you were disrespectful and there will be consequences. Punishment? I guess that depends on the defintion. Perhaps the consequence is a lecture. Perhaps the end of the scene...

Oz, I take on board your points and feel that perhaps we are talking around the same concept if but perhaps using different language. I agree that all control rests with the Dom, or in my case with my Domma, she controls every aspect of our relationship and me.

What I was referring to with regard to the balance of power remaining equal was in relation to the fact as you rightly state that although the Dom(me) is in total control the ability to cease play or even end the relationship is unaffected, both are equally able to do this. A form of MAD (mutually assured destruction) so to speak, both relying upon the other to continue, hence the need to work together and be open and honest.

My post stated that the whilst the balance remained unaltered, as above both being equally responsible for the ongoing success of the relationship the ratio or balance of that power is altered, as the dominant has total control, at no point did I try to state or do I feel that the level of power between my Domma and I is equal, to think such a thing would be detrimental to our relationship, and result in me suffering yet further, all be it deserved punishment. She maintains total control and holds all power, in submitting I have entrusted my power to her, totally.

Thanks for seeking to clarify the post though Oz, I do feel we are in agreement, and hope that having read my reply my Domma agrees !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

rowen, your questions are all valid, and from my perspective, most dom/mes enjoy the things you ask about... room to be playful, to probe and explore the boundaries, to have a personality of your own. BUT... I will point out that whatever you do, regardless of intent, the perception of your dom/me is going to be his/her reality. If he/she sees an act as playful, then you are in sync. If he/she sees it at disobedient or disrespectful, then regardless of your intent, you were disrespectful and there will be consequences. Punishment? I guess that depends on the defintion. Perhaps the consequence is a lecture. Perhaps the end of the scene...

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Oz, I am learning that right now, even if I do find that difficult at times, being the stubborn me. Then again, most of the times there is in fact no discussion and in fact I appreciate the correction.

For example: recently during a chat with a (not "my") domme I couldn't resist replying to a post on a forum. Being myself I told her so.
After the chat in our mails she told me that such was disrepectful "because you were not giving me your undivided attention and visited the forum, making me feel as though our conversation was not important"

She was more than right ofcourse and naturally I accepted the task she gave me. In fact, it felt good to make amends that way. And no, won't happen again.(so stop throwing tomatoes right now please)

Thank you, craven for starting this lively discussion from which we all have learned something.
The two women you mention in your article are First Class AAA women and i hope you know how lucky you are to have a relationship with them.
I too often have a perceived problem of either trying to control or bragging about my relationships with certain of the very best Dommes here, (so i won't). In fact, i was sent here to look at your letter so that i could learn. Right now i am deeply engaged in learning humillity and as you can see, i still have lots to learn.
Hope to see you in chat soon,
Dave

Thanks for you comments Dave, i feel that to be honest all of us are always learning, the dynamic evolves constantly. To say that we know it all or even as much as we need to would be folly.

I only mention one name in my piece however, that of Violett's Vi and I are friends only, she is not my Domma, never has been.

As for my Domma, well those that know me, know who she is and yes I am an extremely fortunate man, she is a very wonderful woman, close friend and Miss.

Thanks again for your thoughts Dave, and yes i hope to see you in chat soon also.

Craven.