the role of punishment

If I see this correctly I find that there are two major ways in which punishment is used in bdsm:

It is used to, and I quote Ragoczy (in a post that gave me inspiration for this thread),

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correct an undesirable behavior

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In this case punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub, because obviously the sub should learn from it and not want to be punished again.

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a roleplay where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.


Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.

That's the exception to the rule. In the role play the sub pretends to misbehave and the dom pretends to punish. The sub should pretend she doesn't like the punishment.

This is all play. Scenes are also about play.

Normally when we're discussing punishment, we are talking about correcting real behavior problems, or we must punish a misdeed that should have been obviously out of bounds... then the punishment must be real and should NOT be enjoyed. Not if you really want to effect a correction.

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Originally Posted by samm

If I see this correctly I find that there are two major ways in which punishment is used in bdsm:

It is used to, and I quote Ragoczy (in a post that gave me inspiration for this thread),

In this case punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub, because obviously the sub should learn from it and not want to be punished again.

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a role play where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.


Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

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Originally Posted by samm

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.

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That is like saying a child should enjoy their punishment when bad...

Subs are punished when they misbehave... when they show lack of respect to their Dom/me and have to be corrected ..

In a proper s/D relationship that is a good portion for it's existence... To Obey.. To respect.. And never ever defy his/hers Dom/mes wishes or wants... If a sub does this against her Dom/me... especially under contract or agreement.. then it is cause for punishment that will change the out look and response of the subs actions so it will never happen again... Thus it must be something the sub does not like... and if severe enough .. it should push their hard limits...

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Originally Posted by samm

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a roleplay where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.

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In this statement the keyword is "Role Play" It is play and not true punishment.. It is an act that is supposed to be fun as it is play..


Maybe that will help you understand the difference between the two punishments samm.. I hope i have helped and that others will give you their opinion..

Just my opinion

hugs
snow

Spank me I have been so incredibly naughty Master. (in a husky lust ladened voice)

Have to agree with the wizard here myself on this one.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

That's the exception to the rule. In the role play the sub pretends to misbehave and the dom pretends to punish. The sub should pretend she doesn't like the punishment.

This is all play. Scenes are also about play.

Normally when we're discussing punishment, we are talking about correcting real behavior problems, or we must punish a misdeed that should have been obviously out of bounds... then the punishment must be real and should NOT be enjoyed. Not if you really want to effect a correction.

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Agreed you just type shorter then me Sir .. winks

hugs
snow

And you type faster than me snow,, huggels sisa

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Originally Posted by denuseri

And you type faster than me snow,, huggels sisa

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giggles.. huggles and kisses and well you know .. winks.. sis

snow

Punishment. in my opinion, falls into two catagories. Discipline and correction. Both of these have many shades and degrees. The diffenrce can be as simple as the Dom/mies tone of voice and the reason for the punishment.

Example: In a playful mood I pull my sub over my lap and paddle her ass becuase she was being a brat. My words to her are stern but not angry or loud. The spanking is to make a point not to hurt or scare her. Thats mild, playful discipline.

But if instead my sub were to break a rule that I had set. I could put her in the same position but with a raised voice, harsh words, a touch of anger and much harsher spanking and its no longer simple Discipline its now correction. Even if she likes spanking she will not see this as a fun or repeatable experince.

Much of it is not doing something your sub likes to make a point. If she does not like getting spanked in a blindfold then add one. <assuming of course its not something that would freak her out totally. Like a hard limit.> The idea is to make the experience something she does not ever wish to repeat.

It can be as simple as standing with her face in a corner like a little girl with her panties around her ankles. just what ever makes the punishment umpleasent

To me just knowing I disappointed my Dom would be a huge punishment. Even with role play, if the tone goes to stern/angry I'll know I've disappointed him and would not want to ever repeat that action.

Really helpful points of view, especially for those that may be new to the topic. Inside all of the comments you find the need for partners, no matter the level, to know and understand each other in order for the punishment to fit the crime, whether the crime is real or role play. This is true whether online or real life.

For me personally, punishment is not play. The playful discipline that Daumon mentioned, yes. But I'm a pain slut, so Master never uses spanking, flogging or whippings on me as punishment, since that would actually be a reward, something that I want. Real punishment is not playful, is not fun and is not something that I want. I always do my best not to disappoint Master or cause Him to punish me, because I hate disappointing Him and I hate receiving punishment from Him.

As I see it, punishment crops up (pun intended) in different aspects of bd(ds)sm, hence the possible confusion and need for discussion:

Discipline:
This is the means by which one person seeks to modify the behavior of another whether in training or as part of an ongoing (Ds) relationship. Punishment (which often involves pain but not necessarily) is the tool by which behaviour is controlled in the bdsm model. Sort of a carrot and stick principle but with no carrot. In this aspect punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub since that would encourage misbehaviour or misdeeds and defeat the object of modifying behavior.

Domination & Submission:
The Dom having, and being acknowledged to have, the right to punish is considered a demonstration of the Dom's domination of the sub and the sub's acceptance therof. Here it does not matter too much whether or not the sub enjoys the punishment. What is critical though is that the sub acknowledges the Dom's right to punish and willingly accepts the punishment as demonstration of his.her submission to the Dom' s will, authority and power.

Sadism & Masochism:
No reason is needed to say whip a person, you do it for the pleasure alone. But because bdsm has morphed from being a collective term for various separate sexual interests into a single "packaged product", tops and bottoms have largely disappeared and merged into the roles of doms and subs. Strictly speaking it is possible for a Dom to be bottom and vice versa but because this is relatively uncommon in practice, it is now commonly assumed that the Dom is the top and the sub the bottom. When the sub deliberately misbehaves and the Dom gives the punishment they both enjoy, they are in fact being top and bottom and simply finding a bogus punishment reason in order to stay within the Ds and Discipline models. (I didn't exxplain that well but I think you get the gist). If the punishment is in play or in a light hearted manner then Ozme's post explains that situation well.

By putting different aspects into the bdsm melting pot to produce a soup with all the different flavours mixed together, we often lose sight of the individual flavour of each ingredient.

Just my tuppence worth!

As a child, I knew when I was being punished. It was not fun. I often let that be the simple test for punishment. Any thing else is play.

Excellent answers, all.

M.

In our house it is often said i only get spanked if i am a good girl!

Perhaps it is just me but I don't even see or like the use of the term "punishment or correction" in reference to play. They are entirely two different things and since I don't enjoy role play as a standard activity then there is no room for "punishment" for fun. Maybe it is my enjoying pain that has set this standard but it is very simple. Beat me for fun/pleasure. Don't for punishment or correction.

As sirtacit already said, I see that there are some different points of view from different people, so it is a really usefull topic to discuss :)
I also see that the way punishment is experienced differs for different subs and Doms so it is important to understand eachother well.

So I think that if there is a need to punish a sub in a way that he or she doesn't enjoy, obviously the sub did something to upset his/her Dom(me) and there may have been some miscommunication when discussing what both of you want out of your play.

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Originally Posted by snowflake

That is like saying a child should enjoy their punishment when bad...

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I am not saying a child should enjoy their punishment when bad, but the first reason for doing bdsm is because you enjoy it, so I prefer punishment to be used in the sense of roleplay, being secretely enjoyed by the sub.

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Originally Posted by samm

how do you use punishment?

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I don't have experience with punishing someone else myself, but I think this answers the question how I would use punishment or how I prefer to be punished.

Anyway it is interesting to see all your thoughts about punishments :)

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Originally Posted by samm

As sirtacit already said, I see that there are some different points of view from different people, so it is a really usefull topic to discuss :)
I also see that the way punishment is experienced differs for different subs and Doms so it is important to understand eachother well.

So I think that if there is a need to punish a sub in a way that he or she doesn't enjoy, obviously the sub did something to upset his/her Dom(me) and there may have been some miscommunication when discussing what both of you want out of your play.


I am not saying a child should enjoy their punishment when bad, but the first reason for doing bdsm is because you enjoy it, so I prefer punishment to be used in the sense of roleplay, being secretely enjoyed by the sub.


I don't have experience with punishing someone else myself, but I think this answers the question how I would use punishment or how I prefer to be punished.

Anyway it is interesting to see all your thoughts about punishments :)

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This belies that you aren't using the word 'punishment' in the same way as virtually everyone else in the lifestyle.

There is discipline and order to be gained from the lifestyle, which creates opportunities to make mistakes or be disobedient... and hence punishment.

If it's part of the play, and we DO play, we're not suggesting otherwise, but if is part of playing, it is not really punishment.

I spank because I enjoy it. I spank because she enjoys it. Spanking is never about punishing her for a misdeed.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

This belies that you aren't using the word 'punishment' in the same way as virtually everyone else in the lifestyle.

There is discipline and order to be gained from the lifestyle, which creates opportunities to make mistakes or be disobedient... and hence punishment.

If it's part of the play, and we DO play, we're not suggesting otherwise, but if is part of playing, it is not really punishment.

I spank because I enjoy it. I spank because she enjoys it. Spanking is never about punishing her for a misdeed.

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Exactly... i agree with Oz and to muddy the waters even further, I learned recently that apparently for me (currently) there is "punishment" which is for a willful act of wrong that i did and "correction" which is the removal of a right for something that was not willful but still not acceptable either. Personally, I see both as "punishment" with one not being as severe at the other. Although I know 2 people who would disagree with me on that definition! ;) Either way I don't see either of those as "play." Play is fun and lighthearted. Punishment or correction gives a sinking almost sick feeling in the pit of the stomach at the thought that one has disappointed for whatever reason.

I think the confusion arises because some people only call it "Dominance" if the focus of the relationship is obedience for its own sake. In that case, the sub hates punishment because it means sie has failed to please hir Dom(me); sie may even want to be hurt in a really bad way to expiate hir feelings of guilt and failure.

However, others call a relationship "Dom/sub" even when the primary focus is pain-play (and/or humiliation etc.), and in this case the sub may routinely "play naughty" as the start of a scene which is called "punishment" but has nothing to do with actually modifying the sub's behaviour.

Obviously, the choice of treatments will be completely different in the two cases. I had a slave who I routinely whipped bloody because we both enjoyed it: but if she had really done wrong and I wanted her to know it and be sorry, I would use punishments (in the exact sense) which would have looked much less serious to an outsider, but which taught her the required lesson because they meant shame and guilt to her.