Psychology Of Verbal Degradation

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Psychology Of Verbal Degradation

A few notes about this post. I am a male dom who deals exclusively with female submissives. The point of view of a female mistress or male submissive will largely be absent here. Also, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here or invent terminology where it already exists. I'm only trying to express my views on the subject.

Verbal degradation is the process of verbally abusing a submissive in such a way that the submissive’s self-worth is diminished, with the goal of achieving mutual pleasure. In my opinion, verbal degradation is most effective and pleasurable when a submissive is able to understand that the desire to be verbally abused is the mental allegory to physical masochism. In each case, the submissive can take pleasure not only in the application of the words themselves, but also in the idea that she is aroused by them when the puritan rules of much of the civilized world say she should be offended. It makes for excellent foreplay, but can serve as a sex act in and of itself, especially when physical contact is not an option.

Verbal self-degradation is seldom talked-about, but it involves the female submissive saying degrading things about herself, to please her master. This is my favorite BDSM-related kink, by far, and I am forever seeking out a sub who is proactive in her own verbal degradation, while finding just as much pleasure in it as I do. The danger with more conventional verbal degradation is that the submissive may simply act as a vessel for the words of the master, repeating back to him what he has just said, parrot-like, and adding nothing on her own. While this is not always the case, I have encountered it often enough to identify it immediately.

It’s my opinion that submissives skilled in proactive, verbal self-degradation are the most precious finds, and should be treasured like rare pearls. The beauty of verbal degradation is that its utility increases with the enlightenment and qualities of articulation and creativity present in both partners. For me, it is the reason to look for a bright-eyed and eloquent submissive as opposed to an unsophisticated and timid one. The overriding theme of self-degradation for the pleasure of a master is that the submissive is pleasing me at the expense of her own self-worth…but also pleasing herself. She’s buying satisfaction for the both of us, and paying with safeguards of her own mind.

Much has been made of the fact that verbal degradation is a dangerous practice in that legitimate self-esteem issues may present themselves if the master is negligent in hauling his submissive back from the abyss. I can see how this might occur, though if you realize you’re causing actual damage and continue to verbally abuse your partner, you’re a sociopath, not a master. This behavior breaks the bond of trust that is so very important. A woman willing to subject herself temporarily to her own feelings of worthlessness and subhumanity needs to be protected from the incubation of such feelings. I tend to think of it in terms of a submissive handing me the keys to all of her good qualities, and letting me lock them away for a while. She can do this because she trusts me to restore them to her and cherish her for them.

The purpose of this post is to talk in greater detail about the practice of using words to wage the same war on a submissive’s mind that a riding crop might wage on her flesh. Let’s look at some different verbal abuse archetypes.

1. Reduction to vulgar simplicity.

Three women walk into a talent agency. The agent asks, “What kind of act do you do?”

The tallest of the three, a striking goddess of impeccable beauty, replies: “I lay in a state of partial undress while reciting the poetry of Yeats. As I do this, my sister sets up an easel and paints a beautiful landscape in the style of the early Impressionists. Finally, my other sister plays soothing music on her harp. It is a classy and culturally-rich presentation.”

The agent, clearly impressed, asks, “That sounds great, what is your act called?”

“Oh, we’re ‘Stupid Cunts’”.

-variation on old “Aristocrats’ joke, unattributed

In reduction to vulgar simplicity, the masochist feels the mental discomfort of being misunderstood, trivialized and dismissed. She is no longer a complex and interesting flower but simply a one word locker-room punchline. Imagine working fifteen years to become a concert pianist, then asking your lover what word defines you, and having him answer “twat”.

Nobody wants to be a one-dimensional human being. Every man and woman on earth is a bustling mish-mash of talents, goals, motivations, and memories. I think all of us would bridle at the idea of defining ourselves with one word, especially when the defining is being done in a negative way. Pigeonholed as a “liberal” or a “redneck” or a “hothead”, I think that each person’s immediate reaction is to cry out in objection: “No, look at me! I am a complex human being- a sum of many intricate experiences and thoughts. You cannot sum me up in one word.” That feeling is a security blanket we hold around ourselves and strongly tied to our self-worth.

In stripping that security blanket away, an enlightened sadist can confront the submissive with the fact that she is not complex at all, and, in fact a simple creature of servitude. The crashing realization that all of her unique charms can be whittled down to one unmerciful word (maybe with a few adjectives thrown in) is sobering and powerful. These are probably the easiest degrading remarks to form and execute and often take the form of a dom listing the very few (usually sexual) things the submissive is actually useful for, tactfully ignoring anything else she might have to contribute.

Dominant Examples:

“You’re nothing but a cunt!”
“The only thing you’re good for is sucking dick and getting fucked in the ass.”
“You’re a dumb bitch, isn’t that right?” (a style used to illicit a response)

You can spice these up a lot by adding elements of other archetypes, but since I haven’t discussed them yet, I’ll stick with the basics. The choice of words is important for maximum impact. Terms like “cunt” and “dumb bitch” are words you would use if you wanted to get across your utter disregard for a female. Words like “slut” and “whore” also work, but the connotation is more exclusively sexual. In the Western world, “cunt” is the atomic bomb of contempt for a female, and so it works perfectly here.

Submissive Examples:

“I’m nothing but a cunt!”
“The only thing I’m good for is sucking dick and getting fucked in the ass!”
“I’m such a dumb bitch, aren’t I?” (again, an example of verbal degradation to solicit response)

You can see how these work in a subtly different way. The “middle man” is cut out. Instead of waiting for a moaned “Yes!” or a capitulating nod in response to my statement about my submissive being a stupid twat, I can get the story straight from her mouth, leaving no doubt as to her feelings. Until you have experienced this feeling of capitulation and sacrifice for yourself, you can’t imagine how satisfying it is to see a submissive trample on her own self-esteem for the mutual, rutting pleasure of your two minds.

In both the male and female cases, these statements illustrate the bond between master and slave in that they articulate the master’s superiority as a more complex individual. The idea that he is magnanimous and messianic for deigning to rescue such a simple and useless creature from a life of irrelevance is constant. This is the essence of submission and devotion.

I will add more archetypes to this post as I have time.

- FS

Very interesting post- look forward to reading more.

this is very interesting, personally i enjoy being verbally degraded, but for me its a form of a sexual turn on. i never really thought of there being an actual "science" to it. i'm looking forward to reading more

very nicely put, this is a rare art to humiliation play that few fully apreciate

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2. Denigration of fundamental characteristics

"Words have the power to both destroy and heal.
When words are both true and kind,
they can change our world."

-Buddha (Gautama Siddharta), 600 BC

“And when words are both untrue and unkind, they can make her cum. Really, really hard.”

-Flesh Seraph, 2008

In denigration of fundamental characteristics, the masochist feels the discomfort of having the defining characteristics of her existence degraded, and in being complicit in that degradation. The racial, religious, philosophical, physical and ethical facets of her being come under harsh judgment here, their good qualities turned into bad. The sadist takes on the tone of one critical of those characteristics. In reduction to vulgar simplicity, above, all subtleties of a submissive are cruelly ignored, including defining characteristics. In denigration of fundamental characteristics, these same defining characteristics are singled out for abuse.

One might think of it as the targeting of demographics to which the submissive belongs. Each person on earth clings closely to an identity that is some combination of demographics. Age, body type, race, and religion are four examples of defining characteristics. By taking careful measure of which traits the submissive uses to define themselves, the master can pick and choose which areas to attack with his words. Usually, the right avenues of attack are obvious. Look at her, visualize the first word that comes into your head, and then go to work on that. Usually, it will be age, body type, or race. You can even go to a more basic level and attack a person’s sex.

To a masochist, the verbal dismissal and abuse of these defining characteristics is the mental equivalent of a white-hot poker pressing repeatedly and implacably against the skin. She is not only lowered by subjugation to the words, but this her subhumanity proven by the enjoyment of them.

The appeal of this to a masochist who wants to be lowered, and the progressive nature of the degradation, is obvious:

Q: What is lower than someone using a racial/religious/age or body-related slur to your face?
A: Enjoying it.
Q: And what’s lower than that?
A: Begging for it.
Q: Lower still?
A: Getting off on it.
Q: And the lowest?
A: Craving it after the fact and returning for more.

The above “Degradation Sequence” is true in every one of these verbal degradation archetypes. All of them, on some level, are based around the idea of desire for things most would consider undesirable. Just like most people would never yearn for a taste of the whip…who in their right mind desires a tongue-lashing?

Let’s talk a little bit about some of the sub-categories here. This is by no means an all-inclusive list:

Sexual – Denigration of women by men is so common that it actually has its own name- misogyny. Sex is an even more fundamental characteristic than race or religion and you can make the case that it’s the greatest divide of all- before there were ever segregated bathrooms in the American deep south, or water fountains only for “colored” people, there were separate washrooms for males and females. A woman first and foremost identifies herself as a woman. A good verbal abuser will pound on that until that identity isn’t worth a damn.

Ethnic – For many people, ethnicity is the number one defining characteristic above all others. Identification with one’s own ethnicity, and its importance, is recognized at every level, so much that laws are in place to prevent discrimination and hate speech against these identities. Obviously, with this much strength as a characteristic, it makes perfect sense for a sadist to attack it first, and harshly. I’m a white, middle-class scumbag from the usual mongrel European ancestry, so from the misdeeds of my own people I’ve learned how to denigrate other races. There’s not much to say about my methodology here except to say that (unless a boundary has been established beforehand) anyone from any foreign country or minority group that winds up as my sub is going to know it.

Religious – This is very similar to Ethnic, in that people often identify themselves first and foremost based on their beliefs. Everything I said above about ethnicity still applies here, but there’s an added wrinkle. Unlike ethnicities, religions can be renounced. Some of the most fun I’ve ever had as a dom is making my sub renounce her belief in the Bible, the Koran, or the Torah and turn her worship toward something more immediate. I’m sure you can imagine what that is.

Body Type – Treading on dangerous ground here. Many people have genuinely negative feelings about their bodies that they don’t have about their religions or ethnicities, and so this is more likely to be a boundary. Believe it or not, I’ve gotten the most enjoyment out of this using it on a sub who had beaten an eating disorder. I would call her fat and there was no truth to it at all- she was actually just fine. But the memory of her previous feelings about herself would surface and add authenticity to her degradation. (Yes, this is edge play.) In any case, I’m sure I don’t have to explain how body-type and overall appearance can be a huge identifying feature to most people- and fair game for any sadist.

Cultural – The poor man’s version of Ethnic. If your bitch is bone white and doesn’t believe in any God, you have to find some way to harangue her. Just to illustrate the difference, calling someone “white trash” is a cultural, rather than ethnic, slur. It brings up images of unsophisticated, desperate poverty.

Age – Basically the same as body type- and if it isn’t a boundary, you should hit it. An older woman considers herself experienced sexually and otherwise, its your job to tear that down and point out the cracks in her (weathered) foundation.

Dominant Examples:

“Why else is a bitch like you even on this planet, other than to pop out babies, suck my cock and do the dishes?” (Misogyny)
“You’d almost be beautiful if you weren’t such a dumb [ethnic slur].” (Ethnic, also denigrates educational qualities)
“I can barely look at you, you’re such a [religious slur] piece of shit.” (Religious)
“You might as well suck my cock- you stuff every other thing in your mouth, you fat cum-bucket.” (Body type – Big, also contains what I like to call recepticalization)
“You’re nothing but worthless trailer-trash, aren’t you?” (Cultural, eliciting a response)
“You old bitch- I’m surprised there aren’t tumbleweeds rolling out of that dust gulch of a cunt.” (Age – Older)

You can mix and match these to form compound denigrations. For example:

“God, you’re such a fat, useless [ethnic slur]. When I see what a [religious slur], fuckmop you are, it makes me want to puke.”

The submissive examples are similar, but can often take the form of apologies for her defining characteristics.

Submissive Examples:

“I apologize for being a useless and weak woman, I’m nothing compared to you!” (Misogyny)
“I’m sorry I’m such a useless [ethnic slur], sir.” (Ethnic)
“Fuck [deity of choice], I just want to suck your cock!” (Religious)
“I’m sorry I’m such a pig…please have mercy on this fat bitch!” (Body Type – Big)
“Yes, I’m nothing but a cousin-fucking trailer-slut!” (Cultural)
“I’m just a nasty old cougar on the hustle for a young cock in my ass!” (Age - Older)

Regardless of how it unfolds, a denigration of fundamental characteristics can provide ample psychological pain to the masochist while strengthening the bond of trust between master and slave. The ritualized practice of degrading oneself for the pleasure of another (or accepting degrading remarks without protest) empowers the master and shows the utter mental submission of the slave. There is also a feeling of trust that develops, wherein the slave accepts criticisms and harsh words from the master that she would never accept from anyone else, establishing him as her one and only guiding star, the only man alive to whom she would entrust the golden key that locks away her self-esteem.

- FS

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3. Capitulation to obscenity

“I want to have your abortion.”

- Marla Singer


Fight Club, original screenplay

The above quote is the dirty-talk that Marla Singer whispers to Tyler Durden in the screenplay (written by Jim Uhls) of the nihilist/anarchist love story “Fight Club”. Alas for raincoat-wearing degenerates like me, this portion was changed to the line “I haven’t been fucked like that since grade school” in the completed film. I find the original version to be much more effective. It effectively demonstrates Marla’s amorality and lust, and incorporates elements of recepticalization and self-destructive carnality that aren’t present in the “safe for theatres” version.

In capitulation to obscenity, the masochist feels the pain that accompanies a loss of essential human and female qualities. Societal biases and undercurrents have taught all women the lesson that they should aspire to be virginal, imperforated vessels of dignity and gentle sexuality. For some, this is a quality to be clutched tightly, a part of one’s identity- the human equivalent to the airtight seal on the top of a bottle aspirin. One imagines that in spreading the legs of one such female, the sound of a creaking and ominous vault door might be heard.

Because the quality of being “unspoilt” becomes so fundamental, the mental pain that is felt when that quality is stripped away or denounced can be powerful indeed. Furthermore, allowing oneself to be subjected to such a “lowering” at the hands of a master can serve as the ultimate symbol of trust and submission. Whatever the angle, the strength of this archetype lies on the polar opposition between the acts celebrated by the Dom and his slave, and the accepted standard of dignity and behaviour for a woman held by the world at large.

When I speak about obscenity I don’t necessarily use the word in a legal sense. Obscenity for the purposes of this archetype has no set definition- I personally define it as any act that would make the submissive’s parents disown her, her friends turn their backs, and feminists run for the nearest bathroom. I define it as any act that is the opposite of empowerment and emancipation. Three taboos in particular stand out as useful tools, three concepts that speak volumes about the female mind, body, and soul with the very utterance of their names. These taboos are physical abuse, rape, and abortion.

If you sat down a group of ten random people and showed then two videos- one of a long, sloppy blowjob and another of an abortion, rape or act of spousal abuse, I am willing to bet that 9 out of 10 of them would classify the second footage as the greater obscenity. There’s something that speaks to obscenity in the hand crashing into a woman’s face, her powerlessness as a man takes her against her will, or the image of her most life-giving orifice being scraped and vacuumed clean like a simple meat sack. Something terrible to which a simple gonzo blowbang doesn’t hold a candle.

Who is the more damaged of goods, in the eyes of unflinching and judgmental society? A promiscuous and wanton female who has sucked thirty-seven different dicks in her lifetime? Or the kicked-to-the-curb waif who has to stumble to the clinic, dark circles under her eyes, in the weak light of the morning- arriving just in time to slap her legs into stirrups and subject herself to the cold metal of an abortionist’s apparatus?

It is important at this point to remember that verbal edge play of this kind should occur under an unspoken umbrella of intellectual honesty. Any right-thinking person knows that rape is a terrible and brutal act that scars lives, that spousal abuse is a hell from which even the most strong-minded of women can have trouble extracting themselves, and that abortion is a torturous choice for any young woman, a procedure that will affect her for the rest of her life. In acknowledging the truth about those acts, the seriousness of them, and the absolute inappropriateness any “legit” endorsement of them, the taboo is strengthened.

The dominant examples here are slightly longer than some of the other examples, just because I attempt to put each diatribe in the proper context. Dominant examples can serve as simple verbal fantasy, describing sexually fantastic events that will never occur, or as foreplay to a physical role-play of the described events themselves:

Dominant Examples:

“You are nothing but a rape-slut. I am going to take you however I want, whenever I want, whether you like it or not. I know you won’t leave me because you love it, don’t you? Jesus, if your friends at the office knew about this, they’d fucking puke at the sight of you. I should show them a picture of you cumming while you get assaulted.”
“Look at you- you’re soaking wet at the thought of me slapping you around. You used to walk about thinking you were a queen- turns out all you needed was a man to beat the shit out of you and remind you of your place as a fucking sperm receptacle.”
“You make me sick. I should knock you up and throw you out on the fucking street. If you don’t like that, you can fucking leave anytime. I know you won’t- you’d go through a whole rack of coat hangers if it meant you could crawl back to me and choke on my cock.” (this is an example of verbal fantasy in the form of accusation- the submissive (or accused) will typically answer back with an shameful (or, just as erotic, emphatic) admission that the stipulated atrocity is something she would love.

Our submissive examples contain some of these shameful/emphatic admissions (it is possible to be both).

Submissive Examples:

“God, yes- rape me! Force me down and fuck me like a bitch! You don’t have to give a fuck how I feel about it, just take me any time whether I like it or not! I love to be raped!” (shameful admission)
“I need a big, strong man to beat the fuck out of me and put me in my place. Fuck women’s rights- knock my teeth down my fucking throat!”
“I want to have your abortion.” (Marla’s cut line is a textbook example of shameful admission in a submissive capitulation to obscenity, and in fact was the basis for this entire article).

Take note that in the case of the second and third examples above, the described events will almost certainly never take place. The allure lies in idea that, if they did, the submissive would welcome them. Again, the umbrella of intellectual honesty is important to maintain. She loves you so much, this slave, that she would destroy herself for you. Destroy herself in the eyes of her community, ensure her own ostracization, shovel the last gravelly helpings of dirt over the grave of her own self-esteem and self worth. Verbal abuse like this is just as ritualistic as a faithful man who kneels at the altar of his God and says that he would die for God’s will. Of course, God will not kill this man- but…is it any less meaningful?

All of the verbal abuse and degradation in this archetype can be summed up with the following construction:

Dom: “You would destroy yourself for me, wouldn’t you? Do you not feel ashamed? Do you not worry about how people would point and be disgusted at your sacrifice? Don’t you care?”

Sub: “No. I would lower myself to nothing for you, destroy myself for you, and I don’t give a fuck.”

The fun is in taking that construction for a walk around the block in all sorts of different and creative ways. I have given examples for three issues that are antipathy to a female, but there are others, and what constitutes an obscenity is different for each person. So really, the archetype isn’t about specific topics at all but about the sacrifice of female identity, virginity, and grace for the purpose of proving loyalty. Sexually, the deepest taboos can often be the most exciting, and the potential for a rewarding session is great. Intellectually, this archetype is proof of a sacred bond. Her devotion is such that she would die inside for you- but her trust is such that she knows you would never ask it of her. Rather, you are content to play out the ritual of that inner death continuously- renewing the bond between you with each iteration.

- FS

Interlude: A Disclaimer For All Concerned

Ever since the first time I heard a faceless and potato-shaped porn actor accuse the actress he was plowing of being "a dirty whore", I've been interested in how words can add to a sexual experience. I've dedicated a lot of time and practice to technique (to call it a 'science' would be delusions of grandeur to the nth degree) of verbal degradation as foreplay to, companion to, or proxy for physical sexual activity. From sneaking aspects into my non-BDSM relationships ("God, you're a dumb twat. ...Just kidding honey!") to seeking out online masochists even more fucked-up than I for the purposes of subjecting them to the mental equivilent of the Manhattan Project, it's been a long and strange journey. If I listed the full extent of the things I've told women, or ordered them to beg for, I would quickly be banned, despite my good intentions. And now that I've reaffirmed by desire to find a slave with whom to share my life, part of what I look for in a prospective sub is her ability to participate in and proactively provoke and support the verbal edge play I love so much.

However.

Consistant through every obscene scenario I've poured into the female ear, every blood-curdling obscenity I've made them beg for, every lewd and dirty insult I've hurled into their faces on the heels of a hard slap...have been two things.

First, the intellectual honesty to know that the things I say are not true, and that our mutual enjoyment of them is mostly because of this very fact- that we revel together in wrongness, untruth, and taboo, like two pigs fucking in a pile of verbal mud.

Second, there has always, always been consent. I have never pushed a verbal hard limit. Never verbally abused anyone who didn't want it, or who was clearly becoming upset. If I sub has too many verbal limits for me, I find another sub. I don't try to bend what shouldn't be bent.

So, before you write your congressman (or forum admin) saying I'm a monster, make sure you understand that the beauty of verbal degradation, of lowing a female to nothing via words and admissions, come from the ritual of her complete submission to you, and demonstrating her nothingness compared to you. Not the reality. And it's certainly not a ritual that should be forced upon her.

- FS

wow a super informative out look on verbal humiliation play

Yes, very good post - and I always felt it's really hot to be abused, forced to admit you like it and made to root for being bound, fucked and called names like a whore - and then to beg for help to get off (implying more bondage and more being used like a fuckslave)

Yes. This slave must agree with gagged_Louise; it is very hot to have one's Master verbally berating oneself.

Personally, this slave has come close to orgasm just by listening to her Master call her His anal whore, His dirty little toilet slave as He tells her how He would press her head against the floor with His boot as He pisses on her or whips her slutty body.

To be used for Master's pleasure is this slave's greatest pleasure.

I've very much enjoyed this thread so far- it's been well written and useful. I'd like to see this conversation broadened to incorporate the verbal degradation of male subs as well. Perhaps it's better left to a separate thread, however, and it's certainly better left to a time when I can keep my eyes open and think straight.

I'll be back onto it when I've got the chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flesh Seraph

Much has been made of the fact that verbal degradation is a dangerous practice in that legitimate self-esteem issues may present themselves if the master is negligent in hauling his submissive back from the abyss. I can see how this might occur, though if you realize you’re causing actual damage and continue to verbally abuse your partner, you’re a sociopath, not a master. This behavior breaks the bond of trust that is so very important. A woman willing to subject herself temporarily to her own feelings of worthlessness and subhumanity needs to be protected from the incubation of such feelings.

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If one verbally humiliates a woman over and over...I'm not really sure I understand how one goes about protecting them from really feeling that way afterwords...? Especially if it is over a period of time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flesh Seraph

Second, there has always, always been consent. I have never pushed a verbal hard limit. Never verbally abused anyone who didn't want it, or who was clearly becoming upset. If I sub has too many verbal limits for me, I find another sub. I don't try to bend what shouldn't be bent.

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What happens that if over a period of time the sub/slave starts to believe the things she is called and calls herself is true?

And what happens if the verbal and physical humiliation is stopped because the sub/slave is upset? Wouldn't that just make her feel extra worse about herself, that she couldn't deal with everything you (or anyone) wanted from her?

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Originally Posted by hopperboo

If one verbally humiliates a woman over and over...I'm not really sure I understand how one goes about protecting them from really feeling that way afterwords...? Especially if it is over a period of time?

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It's not really any more likely than a longtime stage actor beginning to believe that he actually IS Hamlet after playing the role for twenty years.

In this way, a master plays the role of casting director before the first denigrating words are out of his mouth- he has to pick the right slave for the part, rather than just throwing her on stage and seeing how she reacts. In my case, my slave must share my views not only about the eroticism of the act, but in the reasons behind that eroticism. A slave sharp enough to see those reasons and discuss them (as they are described in the above articles) will certainly never fall prey to the phenomenon you describe.

When needed, protection or aftercare can take the form of reassurances, (whispered or emphatic), or periods of counterbalancing exhaltation where the slave is complimented at length and put on a pedestal to reward her for her obedience, willingness and beauty. In addition, simple reminders that the exercise is rooted in untruth will probably do the trick. Sometimes it is necessary to really delve into the psychology behind the act and remind a submissive that the reason such interaction is satisfying is that she is falling from a great height, but only temporarily. A master should be interested in the descent of angels, who subsequent to the act, will rise back up to the clouds. It takes a cruel and irresponsible man to be aroused by the rutting of pigs, who rather than sacrificing their self-esteem, have none to begin with.

If aftercare is frequently needed (at length) and the submissive begins to express many doubts, then it's time for the master to modify his behaviour and discuss new limits with his slave- that is the responsible thing to do. As for a slave becoming convinced that degrading statements are true, or truly feeling worthless afterwards, it is as I said above. I find it very implausible unless the master has grossly misjudged his slave, and chosen one who doesn't understand that the eroticism comes from untruth and dichotomy. If it starts to happen and negatively impact his slave, the only course of action is to accept his mistake and attempt to repair the relationship.

If this happened to me, I'd me more disappointed in myself for misjudging my submissive than I would in the submissive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hopperboo

What happens that if over a period of time the sub/slave starts to believe the things she is called and calls herself is true?

And what happens if the verbal and physical humiliation is stopped because the sub/slave is upset? Wouldn't that just make her feel extra worse about herself, that she couldn't deal with everything you (or anyone) wanted from her?

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Again, the odds of that happening are low unless a master attempts to browbeat a slave with these techniques when she lacks the mental sophistication or experience to understand that the eroticism comes from falsehood, not truth.

If a master brings about these poor results in his sub, it's a miscalculation on the part of the master and he is the one culpable. He should have the strength of character to own up to the fact that he abused (though unintentionally) the trust that she placed in him by taking it too far- and then modify his behaviour.

- FS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flesh Seraph

[Believe it or not, I’ve gotten the most enjoyment out of this using it on a sub who had beaten an eating disorder. I would call her fat and there was no truth to it at all- she was actually just fine. But the memory of her previous feelings about herself would surface and add authenticity to her degradation. (Yes, this is edge play.) In any case, I’m sure I don’t have to explain how body-type and overall appearance can be a huge identifying feature to most people- and fair game for any sadist.

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im not sure id consider this humiliation! it's extremely dangerous! do you know that you can control an eating disorder but you're never actually cured of it?
and to fuck with someones head with it can be extremely damaging! even if she agreed to and enjoyed it, it's re-einforcment no matter how much control she may have over it ..its like giving an alcoholic a glass of champagne because its christmas.
i have an ED and there have been times ive been in control for fairly long periods too but had anyone ever done anything like that to me no matter how aware i was and reassured that it was play only i would have flipped right over the edge! sometimes just because someone gives consent to something it doesnt mean that makes it ''safe''
it's a mental health disorder ie: a serious illness...not just a body issue to be used for a game.
it's ok to say it's a matter of judgement but somethings cant be judged or simplified that easily.

im sorry i dont want to change or spoil your thread but that scares me its more than just edgeplay or a bit of kink and ok it's just my opinion but i really do think anything like that should be stayed well clear of.

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Originally Posted by icey

im not sure id consider this humiliation! it's extremely dangerous! do you know that you can control an eating disorder but you're never actually cured of it?
and to fuck with someones head with it can be extremely damaging! even if she agreed to and enjoyed it, it's re-einforcment no matter how much control she may have over it ..its like giving an alcoholic a glass of champagne because its christmas.
i have an ED and there have been times ive been in control for fairly long periods too but had anyone ever done anything like that to me no matter how aware i was and reassured that it was play only i would have flipped right over the edge! sometimes just because someone gives consent to something it doesnt mean that makes it ''safe''
it's a mental health disorder ie: a serious illness...not just a body issue to be used for a game.
it's ok to say it's a matter of judgement but somethings cant be judged or simplified that easily.

im sorry i dont want to change or spoil your thread but that scares me its more than just edgeplay or a bit of kink and ok it's just my opinion but i really do think anything like that should be stayed well clear of.

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I probably should have clarified that this particular sub wasn't severely afflicted to the point that it greatly affected her life, or required an intervention, and so on. Occasionally, she would indulge in unhealthy habits in order to stay thin, and confessed this to me- and obviously she felt secure enough to allow body-type humiliation and verbal abuse. At the time this occured, she hadn't lapsed into that sort of behaviour for a number of years. We had a talk about it and agreed that it wouldn't be a problem.

I didn't feel like there was any danger at the time, and I feel like I was accurate in that assessment. The world is replete with cutters, bipolars and depressives of all stripes, but I never feel like there's much risk in verbal abuse simply because it's very important to me that both sides understand the inherent dishonesty in the statements being used. It's really the furthest thing from legitimate criticism.

If I had thought at the time that she was making a mistake in not setting a limit, I would have confronted her about it. But circumstances being what they were, I thought it was ok, because of all the different factors. Just like any form of play- you have to weigh all the information and decide whether to set a limit. In the passage you quote, the wording used is:

"The memory of her previous feelings about herself would surface and add authenticity to her degradation."

This is very different from:

"Her previous feelings about herself would surface and add authenticity to her degradation."

One maintains the proper perspective, and one does not. And I would never involve myself in the second case- it's irresponsible, destructive, and cruel.

- FS

yes and bringing up bad memories can be extremely dangerous too,im glad it turned out well for you
its good she didnt get too out of control with it and i hope it always stays that way but if she indulged in 'unhealthy habits' to stay thin then there obviously is some kind of a problem, it can be controlled for years then suddenly return usually from low self esteem, a little weight gain,depression,comments made by people re body size shape etc ...and no that last is not intended as a dig or anything of the sort it's simply a fact.

sorry i dont want to ruin your thread :) so...back to topic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icey

im not sure id consider this humiliation! it's extremely dangerous! do you know that you can control an eating disorder but you're never actually cured of it?
and to fuck with someones head with it can be extremely damaging! even if she agreed to and enjoyed it, it's re-einforcment no matter how much control she may have over it ..its like giving an alcoholic a glass of champagne because its christmas.
i have an ED and there have been times ive been in control for fairly long periods too but had anyone ever done anything like that to me no matter how aware i was and reassured that it was play only i would have flipped right over the edge! sometimes just because someone gives consent to something it doesnt mean that makes it ''safe''
it's a mental health disorder ie: a serious illness...not just a body issue to be used for a game.
it's ok to say it's a matter of judgement but somethings cant be judged or simplified that easily.

im sorry i dont want to change or spoil your thread but that scares me its more than just edgeplay or a bit of kink and ok it's just my opinion but i really do think anything like that should be stayed well clear of.

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I am not attacking you, or even saying that I didn't have a similar response when I first read the above passage, but I would like to submit a few things.

1. The scenario in question is comparable to an arthritic submissive man or woman who enjoys rope play. His or her dominant partner has an obligation to both see that the submissive's welfare is accounted for, and fantasies addressed. I imagine that a responsible partner would not dabble in rope play immediately following knee replacement surgery or even a day particularly rough on the joints, but to ignore that need entirely would be yet another defeat in the ongoing struggle arthritis presents. This does no service at all to the submissive partner, except in highlighting his or her weakness.

2. There is nothing more empowering than facing down a perceived weakness. We can agree that eating disorders are mental illnesses, but a great many people suffering from various mental disorders consider them mental weaknesses. An agreement that despite prior problems, this is an issue that needs to (or would simply be exciting to) be faced, coupled with affirmation from the dominant partner that it's not just an exciting thought, but something he or she truly believes the submissive capable of doing- that's downright euphoric.

3. What we do is dangerous. Even the least edgy kink can seem uncomfortably far from safe, in some capacity. By definition, alternative lifestyles/preferences are not conventional, and you can easily find twenty people singing a chorus about how damaging x, y and/or z kinks are to you. But the real truth is that the human condition is dangerous. Is it different if, in a vanilla relationship, a partner comments thoughtlessly on his wife's weight, triggering her into a bulemic state she'll never tell him about? Yes. Can you imagine being in an in-depth submissive relationship without disclosing that information? Or, if you can, is it possible that anyone would find it acceptable and healthy for that disorder to remain hidden from your partner once it reared its head again? The original situation was not a Dom blundering blindly into a minefield, it was a calculated risk. And I have to tell you, that's what therapists get paid $200/hour to do, with less information about their patients, usually.

Nothing works for everyone. We all have different limits. Awareness is important, for both partners. Communication is equally important.

Flesh Seraph,
Excellent thread! There are many out there who enjoy verbal degredation as a kink & a part of their BDSM experience. You put in very informative material about what verbal degredation is.


To folks in general:
Everyone is entitled to their OPINION about a topic. However, your opinion is YOURS & doesn't make it any less or more than any other opinion. If you are deeply offended by a post, then DON'T POST back! If it is something that is going to make you angry, or you are going to find yourself losing control, DON'T POST back--you are WAY too emotionally attached to the topic.

The point of this thread was to provide psychological context to the kink of verbal degredation--something it did well. How you USE the material is up to you. FS clearly stated to each his own, and the safety issues/concerns... So again, to each his own!!

If you don't like it, you can say so... but remember: it is your opinion, NOT contradictory FACT.

And, keep in mind... as Torq always says: PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!

Such an excellent thread, very well put together.

I've found most women enjoy self-degradation, to be told how they're going to be fucked like a dog, a slut and such words. Knowing what pushes them, their fears and kinks, a very wise Master can use such knowledge to test the limits if not expand them. Its' one of the most basic aspects of the BDSM life style.

If you can get into the mind of a sub or slave and know them better than they know themselves one often finds they truly own them.

Speaking from the perspective of a submissive who enjoys this very edgy form of degradation, I can say that if used improperly, like all aspects of BDSM, this can be potentially dangerous. It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy both giving and receiving this harsh degradation and humiliation, just like it takes a certain kind of person to enjoy being flogged, or led around on a leash. As has been stated, to each their own.

In my humble opinion, there are a number of individuals, male and female, who enjoy this, but don't want to admit it. Self-worth is such a precious thing to people that allowing someone to strip that away would seem almost like suicide. Our sense of self-preservation kicks in, and we refuse to try it for fear of being stripped of all those things that makes us special, and reduced to nothing but some whore who craves her Master's cum and has no sense of self-worth anymore. From the female perspective, as I am quite obviously female.

It's natural to speak out against such a travesty against that which makes us unique. But just remember, just as you have that one weird kink that you're almost certain you'll be ostracized for if you let it out, as does Flesh Seraph, myself, and it seems a few others who've responded, have this one.

Back on topic again(I'm horribly ADD tonight..);
As stated, coming from the receiving female end of this kind of kink, I can say once more that it is extremely dangerous, perhaps just as dangerous as knife play. There is a point where the degradation has to stop, and if the Master/Mistress does not stop at that spot, repercussions can occur, including severe mental damage. To harm something so precious that would allow you to treat it like nothing more than a cum hole, is a great misdeed, imo. I am certain it has been touched on that there is a limit in previous posts, but this limit is something that needs to be ingrained into any Dom/mes mind when practicing this form of BDSM. It leaves no physical marks, yet the damage will most assuredly be there if you cross that limit. Call me a useless cunt whose mouth should only be opened for your cock, that my only use is to be your cum-bucket, that I'm an idiotic lump of a woman who'll get off on you walking all over me because it's all I understand. Just never let me forget that you say these things because it gets us both off, never let me doubt my place in your heart, even if you never say it, I will know it, because I am special even while you say I am not, because I'm the one you share this with, I'm the one who gives you the keys to all that is me to wash away for those precious moments where I -am- nothing more than a whore for your cock.

But I am special, because I choose this, and I choose you to do this to me.

I...I don't know if I made it very clear. It makes sense in my head. Let me know if I need to clarify anything. ^^;;;


As an aside; I was not directing my last paragraph at anyone in particular. It was done to prove a point.

Well I for one have experienced both the good and the bad ways for this type of domination to play out.

It took a long time for me to enjoy it again after the bad experience I had.

Fortunately I am lucky to find those that are understanding and so very good at it to make it exciting for me again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denuseri

Fortunately I am lucky to find those that are understanding and so very good at it to make it exciting for me again.

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Eh...that is my only...fear I guess is the word...with this type of play.

When I think of humiliation right off the bat I think of someone who is meeting another person and says, "Well aren't you a disgusting piece of filth," as an intro line and then laughs it off.

*Sighs* The idea of having that in the bedroom, with someone who actually I KNOW cares for me is a turn on...but I wouldn't go for it with just anyone. Nor would I go for someone who was verbally...degrading, but who couldn't (or wouldn't) ever tell me he cared for me. (Because that isn't realy caring then, is it).