Printable View
In any BDSM relationship, be it a single scene between a Top and a bottom or a 24/7 Ms relationship. Who has the most power, or most control?
Is it the sub, is it the Dom, is it the Master or slave? Is it both?
This was a topic of discussion at our group munch. There were opinions for both sides.
Most of the people i know will say its the sub who has the most power because they get to stop a scene, step out from a relatioships whenever something doesnt go as planned. But in my opinion, Both have the same amount of power in a scene/relationship. I say that because both get to stop a scene in the middle if something doesnt go as planned, or If a submissive acts a particular way while a top is doing something(not sure but you can think of ideas) then He/she gets to stop the scene or play date. Same goes for the submissive. Slaves I cant really speak on because I am not a slave and i dont have the mind set as a slave. But I am sure if something doesnt go as planned and their life is in danger, they would stop the scene, the play, etc. It just depends on the person(slave) though, know a few of them who wouldn't stop because they think their "master" or what not could do know wrong but if something goes wrong then all hell has broken lost. Many different agencies getting involved because of simple(sometimes not so simple) mistakes.
So i guess all i am trying to say is, I think both have the right to end a scene, a relationship, etc if the other isnt living up to their part of the deal. Will either one of them take up that right to end the relationship? No one really knows especially when feelings, emotions and that "longing" to serve/dominant, no matter how horrible, good, bad, or indifferent that person(other partner) may be.
Let me answer your question with a question.
Tell me, who has the real power when one is gagged and tied down, on their knees getting fucked, fingered and spanked and the other one gets to do the fucking, fingering and spanking?
I have personally found that who is in charge is often a point of contention, even in a M/s relationship, especially in one where the submissive has as of yet to fully surrender in their heart to the will of a dominant and even then some dominants wish to allow one to retain as much of their spirt as possible, prolonging the dynamic in many ways, with several different degrees of surrender being involved.
"Beware la kajira lest it is you who ends up enthralled at her feet instead."
In some ways its a constantly changing dynamic, a two way street if you will. There is a certian degree of give and take, in power exchange.
We can spout all the window dressings of "equality" of this and that we wish to make us feel all fluffy about the the topic of "true power" and where it resides but it wont change a thing when it comes down to the brass tacks in actual practice; despite the giving and taking that occurs. Even the sacred holy grail of the "safe word" will not allways save one, the dominant ultimately is the one who decides if such is to be honored in reality and even if it's allowed the sub, there are situations in which the use of them isnt allways feasible.
As for ending relationships, well, anyone can and allready does do that, regardless of title within the kink community, at least in developed societies. (Unless being held actual prisoner and well then, whatever asshole is doing the holding needs to go to jail) The majority of us all are denziens of a society in which the rule of law is clear on this and yes even those of us who are slaves know this and will leave your ass if you go too far.
Choose to submit and you place yourself at risk to some extent. There will be times when you are completely at the mercy of another.
Tell me , who has the real power then?
Well put, denuseri.
Agreed, very well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by asiangirl
denuseri, to answer your question question with an answer. When the bottom protests, and the Top retains the control irregardless of consent given or revoked it ceases to be consensual, and the bastard should go to jail as you mentioned.
So with the semantics of power being exchanged for a bottom to be bound and gagged consensually. Does the dominant hold the control or the sub. I say it remains equal. Who directs the scene, it is most definitely the top, but who holds control? IMO it is equal.
Well as a slave I can tell you who doesnt control or direct things. lol
Honestly, you want me to top you from the bottom I will, just dont expect me to respect you for it in the morning. Winks.
As for equality, smh, in actual reality there really isnt such a thing, its an abstract consept.
You wish to say the sub is in charge becuase she can revoke her consent, more power to you, but I say the dominant has just as much power in that regard, he or she doesnt have to acccept your submission to them, they too are perfectly capable of packing up their toys and going home or choosing to "play" with another instead.
So if the sub really wants to be dominated, one must be able to recognize such consepts in reality dont apply to the equation, at least not during execution for the most part.
Ive never had a safe word for telling a dominant, "ow quit it, I dont feel like it today not that way," the safe word (when used at all) to my understanding, at least in the manner in which I was trainned, is primarally a tool used by novices to (or brand new couples) help avoid permament damage of ones submissive and not a "fall back theoretical tool" used as part of the power exchange dynamic by the sub against the dominant.
In the beginning, the power is definitely equal, and on the surface, it would appear to remain balanced throughout a D/s relationship. However, in my experience, once a dominant has successfully gotten inside the submissive's head and heart and the submissive has truly surrendered, the submissive is like a puppet on a string. Granted, we are all adults and capable of making decisions, so protests of "he made me do it" seem kind of silly in the harsh light of day. Ultimately, we are in control of ourselves, but the feelings evoked in power exchange of helplessness, dependence, etc., are very real. For it to feel real, there cannot be true equality.
Just as in the vanilla world... the contract describes responsibilities, duties, recourses, penalties for non-performance, and how the contract will or can be ended.
In the vanilla relationship world, a lot of that "contract" is culturally understood, and often ends in a marriage license which has more cultural and legal processes and understandings.
In the world of bdsm, it is no different save that more is discussed, (or up for discussion,) and more is specifically specified, whether orally or in a written agreement.
That all said, you (hopefully) go into the negotiations equally and you enter into an agreement, whether for a couple of hours at a play party or a whole hog 24/7 relationship.
Who has the power, while "under contract" is based on the couple and their agreement. And the fact that either can withdraw is irrelevent. It's just another point within the agreement.
First, what is power? Power is leverage. Power is influence over the decisions of others. The person with the most influence has the most power. Now who has the most power is rarely a simple measurement, however a good guideline is: who has the least value at risk? The person with the least value at risk is the one that can walk away from the situation the easiest, the one who can most easily decide to do something else. However, the power position isn't determined just by how much is at risk, but by how much is perceived to be at risk, because that perception is what people will base their decisions on. So the person who is in the power position is the one who perceives that they have the least at risk; the one who thinks they will be the least affected by the influence of the other person's actions on their existence.
The whole "submissive has the most power because the submissive can end the scene" is a myopic way of looking at the situation which gets endlessly perpetuated largely because it boosts the comfort level of otherwise nervous (and generally green) submissives. It seems at first blush that the submissive has more power because the idea always gets brought up in the context of the dominant wanting to 'go too far' and that the dominant will stop when told. Yes, the dominant is supposed to stop, but that doesn't mean that it will happen. The dominant still gets to make a choice, while the submissive does not. The submissive isn't demonstrating more power in that situation, but asking the dominant to weigh the perceived consequences of continuing vs. the dominant's desires. If the dominant decides that the risks associated with ignoring the safeword are less than the continued enjoyment of what s/he is doing, then the submissive just might find their safeword ignored. If the submissive had the guaranteed ability to bring a halt to whatever was happening at any time and without consequence, then the 'submissive' would be in the power position because s/he has the least at risk, thus s/he would not actually be submitting.
The whole point of a d/s relationship is that there is a power differential in the dominant's favor. A dominant that is doing their job correctly won't have the submissive thinking that s/he will be the least affected by refusing to comply. If you think you are in the power position, then you certainly aren't thinking you are the submissive one in the relationship.
I think the dominant truly cares about the sub, though it manifests in weird ways sometimes, and some dom/mes cop some really weird attitudes about that. Caring, emotionally and care-taking as a task, puts the dominant in a place of vulnerability (chosen and accepted), which implies (to me at least) that a huge amount of power is given to the sub: the power to be desired.
As Denuseri said, the dom/me has more physical power and more control, and that is a different kind of power. Also, the dom/me generally has more will, more force, and more choice. The sub has one big choice- stay or go.
I don't have a good answer to the original question, because I don't think power can be measured like a volume or a weight can. So it is impossible to directly compare one power to another.
Sure it can. Power = work/time. *grin* To seriously respond, an accurate measurement is definitely difficult as we don't have a unit for personal power and power can be expressed in many different ways. However, it is possible to to compare one power to another. While this can't be done in a purely scientific way (outside of physical power), we can get a fairly good idea by taking two individuals with a different amount or type of power, have them try to accomplish a variety of tasks, and score them on speed and quality. It won't be a perfect test, it ought to be able to give a coarse idea of how various types of power stack up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guera
hypothetically, its a good idea :)
It's the Dom. I see moments all the time that i am defered to. Like Red said, once you are in her head, the dynamic shifts and you cant just say that she is going to use her safe word.
Summed up very well. I think that if one is submissive, having the power, whether implied or overt, is uncomfortable. Can I, as a submissive, safeword? Yes I can. Is that a guarantee that the scene will end immediately? No it isn't. I don't throw around safewords just because I'm not deliriously happy with what's going on. It's not me. When I submit, I submit to whatever is happening unless it's going to cause serious harm. Then I safeword, we talk, and my Owner decides if it continues or ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Coma
Here's how I look at it, in a D/s relationship. A Dom and sub talk. The sub tells the Dom his/her hard limits and soft limits. These conversations need to be thorough and can be ongoing as the relationship progresses. Once the initial negotiation is complete, the Dom is then "in charge". In other words, my limits, His limits....act as boundaries of a world. Once those boundaries are established, what happens inside them is up to Him. I have agreed to that as His submissive...and in fact, need to know that I am no longer in control.
When we need to talk as one person to another, we do so outside that world. This can be difficult to do...and once done, difficult to go back. It requires a real commitment on the part of both Dom and sub to do so.
When did BDSM become all about the Dominant.
In my 30 yrs plus in the lifestyle I have seen it change...I remember going to my first munch as a young man,,,Seeing others more experienced there Tops bottoms switches...some who weren’t sure where they fit...never did I hear a harsh word spoken. All were welcome to join and learn.
I never saw fear on subs faces there only joy... No commands given or needed as they knelt and served. I was amazed by what I saw..there as they interacted so natural. I was given this advice and it has worked my entire life so I wish to pass it on.
Our duty as Dominants is to provide a safe, sane consensual environment for the growth of the submissive. Nothing else was needed to be said as it said all to Me.. I have used this knowledge My entire life knowing safe meant I would allow no harm to befall her be it mental ,physical , or psychological. Consensual that she would let me know through her actions and communication her willingness to expand on her limits , that I would not dictate them. Sane that I would have control of my own emotions and wants to allow this growth in a sub. All of this is based on trust and time, no one can give themselves without it, and as time and trust build needs change wants need to be explored willingly by her.
As a Dom I do not demand ....I accept her submission , I know other Doms know the joy of a sub kneeling at your feet not because she is commanded too..but because she wants , and desires to. To not have to say you will be punished , but find her at the door as you enter holding the whip... This is true Dominance it can not be given over night, no matter how you try to force or demand it. They say time heals all wounds, and it is true and time allows subs to grow.
I don’t crave or desire power, but something much more her trust that no matter what secrets she wishes to share , her desires she will be safe and no guilt be felt by her. .Some will say you are wrong to think this way ...you are being topped from bottom. This is not true as I am the Dom and once her trust and safety is known she gives all willingly. Some here have felt the power of just a look that you can give as a Dom....that will make her sink to her knees, not out of fear but because she herself has come to know her own needs. To witness tears of joy as she surpasses her own limits.
So why would I even want it to be about me ,I don’t
The first pair in the lifestyle I met, and who introduced me into the lifestyle, was kind enough to answer my excessive amount of questions with lots of patience and understanding.
The dom told me that a dom has only as much power as the submissive will let him have.
As denu and others pointed out, the submissive can at any point leave the relationship. So basically, the power to end it is equal.
That said, the power within a scene is in my eyes different. As in denu´s nicely put example - in certain scenes, positions, bindings, gaggings etc. the submissive has really no control, meaning she has given that control completely over to the dom.
It is up to the dom to handle that situation in a way that is good for both.
I am with hubby almost 12 years now. Although I personally have issues with handing over control in real life issues, I give over control within a scene. Although this is sometimes extremely scary for me, it turned out to be the biggest turn-on for me at the same time.
As for the power within the relationship: I found, as I learned over time, to ask for his opinion on things, simply because there are a lot of things he knows more about than I do, and because he is usually right (yay, I admitted it! *lol*).
I don´t think the question can be answered for all couples in a one-off sort of way.
Basically, I could end a scene at any time, by giving my safeword.
While I have considered it sometimes, I never did that yet.
Basically, I could end the relationship at any time.
The thing is, I don´t want to do that.
I don´t know if that helped you. It´s just my opinion.
Kind regards
Arria
Why do you equate power with fear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnytedreams
Why does wielding power make "it all about the dom"?
You say your role is to keep her safe.... How do you keep her safe with no power?
How do you help her surpass her limits with no power?... for why would she do so save to please you? Your pleasure when she does so is, in fact, a power you wield.
And you say you are in control of your own emotions. How do you do that without power?
I'm not saying your perspective, especially of your own relationship, is wrong, just that you indeed wield a lot of power, perhaps all the power, in your relationship.
Have you ever asked her who has the power between you when you are interacting as dom and sub?
(Just curious. ;) )
Oh!! I'm "embedded within Arria. :hubba:Mmmmm, embedding oneself...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arria
Sorry for the interuption.... back to the actual conversation. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jeanne
Hm, apparently one cannot quote a part of a quote.
*lol* Ozme, you´re impossible!
As for this text:
"As for the power within the relationship: I found, as I learned over time, to ask for his opinion on things, simply because there are a lot of things he knows more about than I do, and because he is usually right (yay, I admitted it! *lol*)." by me and
"But I'll bet he considers all of your input in the decisions he makes too. Such does not diminish power." by Ozme -
Well, basically, yes.
Though it does not happen often that this becomes necessary. He usually can handle his own stuff, and we let each other make the daily life decisions on our own.
As for bigger issues like large amounts being spent - e.g. for the car, or for a vacation -, we decide and discuss together, until all parties involved are happy with the compromise.
This is what works best for us.
I know there are people who are into micromanagement etc., but neither of us wants that.
I don´t want to give over control over every little step I take, and he would not want to be bothered with a woman who does not want to make any decision alone.
I basically don´t want to be parented or controlled too much by force. A nice example of this?
I gave him my passwords for the pages where I usually hang around. So he basically has the possibility to read and check on all my stuff. (I don´t think he is using it much; perhaps he would, if I gave him reason for mistrust).
I did this voluntarily and on my own accord. It is a sign of trust and wanting to share.
If, however, he had said "you must give me all your passwords and report to me every conversation you have with anyone but me outside of your job", I would most likely have called him a control freak, and kicked his ass.
The magic for me is in a dom who makes me _want_ to do what he likes.
Not in a "dom" who excerts his will by brute force or because he claims "this is what a _real_ sub must do".
No arguement there Arria.
Why do you equate power with fear?
I never equated power with fear, but yes the power is the conquering of it. As humans we all have fears. Conquering fear lets take as an example .... Have you as a Dominant male ever asked your submissive what she went through to be yours....I have. First they must deal with the understanding of this need ....it takes great strength to go against what society deems as normal in their choice... Then they have to decide how to voice this choice ....as they do they become a target for all kinds of abuse verbal ,and mental...would you have the strength of your own convictions to wade through that ....many submissive can’t so they give up.... but the strong ones do...their conviction need is that strong.... Some give themselves to another only to abused , used lied too...of those many leave the lifestyle as they can’t deal with it and just give up... could you endure this ask yourself....Some find a Dominant give there all it becomes r/l only to find abuse and lies....but still they seek another why...what draws them ....they have something a strength to find that happiness ... Finally they find the One their Dom but this baggage is still there ....they need time to see it will work so parts are held back...but with time, and the building
of this trust, they can now share everything they wished to share from the beginning. I know she fears at the start if I went through the same I would be apprehensive too. We as Dominants rarely think of what our submissive went through to become ours
You say your role is to keep her safe.... How do you keep her safe with no power?
By understanding what it took to bring her to Me...Understanding she has fears, communication and allowing her to share those fears...would you not if you went through all above to find the One you have. Women fear gaining weight, getting old , abandonment , are they enough , a whole gambit of fears we will never understand.... As an example my sub is turning fifty, she used to looks at her picture then to the mirror questioning herself constantly, no matter how much I reassured her , she did it finding fault with herself... nothing worked then one day I asked her this.... As a firefighter I face death daily... If I was to become disfigured by a fire would she love me less... she went to our bedroom , I followed her found her crying on the bed she looked up and said how could you think such a thing,,, I looked deeply into her eyes and said then why do you question me by doubting your own beauty... is that power no ... it is understanding we as Dominant and sub and are but parts of One.
How do you help her surpass her limits with no power?... for why would she do so save to please you?
The submissive knows her needs long before she ever meets her master, her need as a submissive is to give of herself, you as a Master must deal with this fact it is what drew her into the lifestyle not you. Yes with trust and time she shares those needs more, as with any relationship be it in the lifestyle, or vanilla.... you wouldn’t walk up to a complete stranger on the street and start talking about your wants needs to them as a new sub will not share her own secret wants desires with just any Dom... But we all have that someone whom we share our life with be it a best friend some one we have known for some time and can trust with that knowledge be it vanilla or lifestyle .With that building of trust in the Dom the submissive finds she can share that with you...her desires. Do you honestly think when a submissive is asked for the first time her limits by a new Dom...she shares all ...this is not a lie just a way to protect herself....That desire can’t be revealed yet to anyone,,, even her...but with time she grows understanding her needs, her trust builds and soon she has to share that need. My joy doesn’t come from binding a women but seeing the joy in her eyes as she lays there bound...not from striking her flesh with whip or flogger but the look in her eyes after as I caress her , and she thanks Me.
And you say you are in control of your own emotions. How do you do that without power?
If self control over my own emotions is power I don’t understand the question. I learned in martial arts that with the knowledge comes control. If confronted I walk away not out of fear of them...but because I know I can hurt them. I choice not to The same is true of the submissive a Dominant can crush the spirit of a submissive make her do anything if she doesn’t know her own strength...I have seen it ...heard of it.....I have found it to be wrong. Maybe I do wield power ,but it is only over Me not her.
Personally i think this is a useless discussion. As long as i'm in a D/s relationship or in a scene, there's no question about who has the power.
The fact that i could end both the relationship and/or the scene doesn't mean i have the same amount of power. I only have it if i actually do it, which i won't unless my Master doesn't cross any limits we both have agreed upon. (Accidents or unforeseen occurances aside, like the one time i used my safeword because we played outside and a bee was scrambling over my leg and i'm allergic to beestings.)
Within those limits, he has all the power he wants (and needs) to be a caring Dom.
well said.
Hmm... its an interesting question and one that I love to mentally wrestle with. :) On one hand, it seems obvious that the dominant must have the most power; otherwise how could he (or she) actually be said to be dominating.... that's kinda what the word means. ;) That being said, I think there is a difference between controlling power and having power. I am a submissive; this has not suddenly rendered me powerless. Logically if i am to give something to someone i must have it to begin with. On occasion, Master has told me that I've "made his day" and when he does that always makes me feel both powerful AND submissive (and thrilled to every cell in my body!) The question I wonder on the most is "how is it that I can give power away and not feel diminished?" Because frankly i don't, I feel strengthened by it. I really don't know, but I think its because power is constantly renewing itself. No matter how much control I give to my Master, no matter how much power he has, no matter how much energy we spend, there is always more. There must be more because i keep finding more of it to give lol. So to me its not a question of whether or not subs have power or not.... everyone who is alive has at least the power to "make someone's day" but a question of what we do with that power. As submissives we want (or NEED) someone else to have control of that power.
perhaps, for those that struggle with this idea of power exchange, it may help to think of power as "flowing."
It is true that power flows from the submissive one to the Dominant one, the method of this exchange varies greatly. This leads many to suggest the submissive "has the power", however as Ozme, denu, lucy, and others have illustrated, within the context of scene or relationship this is not so.
After all what power does one wield when tied wrist and ankle to the bed?
Yet power will, as it must, eventually flow back to the one who has surrendered it, be it the end of a scene or day or relationship or life, and so, as most things in life it is cyclical.
For me the true question, isn't who wields power, but how that power is wielded. And the answer to that is as unique and similar as each one of us.
For me the true question, isn't who wields power, but how that power is wielded.
Bravo! Well said good Sir! (claps a lot)
tangledNlanguid and TantricSoul, you have both said everything I would have so beautifully *sniff*.
I think, truly, the way power is exchanged (and it is an exchange or "flow" as TantricSoul said), is as unique for every relationship as the people who make it up.
For me, I would tell you that my sub has more power because it is his giving of it to me on a constant basis that gives me Dominance. I am only Dominant because of his submission, only because he has given his power to me. And I see part of my job as to make him continue to desire to give his power to me, which is why so much of our play revolves around him (though he doesn't always know it).
I've tried to post this about six times already and I can't phrase it any better, and I do not feel satisfied with my answer at all! *Whew*, what a question, IDCrewDawg!
I'm gonna have to say ultimately the sub. Yes, that's hard to argue when I am being forced into position and whipped, or enduring nipple torture. Then there are the times that M's cock is rammed so hard down my throat, I have no choice but to please or gag....but this all happens because I have determined it can. I'm not talking about safe words, or setting limits. I'm just saying that I have let it be known to M that yes, i am willing to go down whatever dark road he leads me. I have chosen that. And at any given time, i can choose to not (bloody unlikely since I knew I was a sub before I even knew what sex was!).
If M were to decide that he no longer wanted to have relations, honestly, while that would give him a certain amount of control, it would only feed my masochistic needs and leave me dripping with the torture of being denied his cock.
I know there are Doms out there who are all about themselves, surely, but a good one will only take his sub as far as they are truly willing to go-truly being a few steps past where they think it is! A good Dom is going to WANT his sub to be turned on, and bases his actions on that.
I believe the power structure has the ability to be equal, however, as Jon's submissive, I gladly hand my power over to Him.